THE WORLD CUP 2010!

[june]

Jul 1, 2010 7:18:14 GMT @riotgrrl said:

Jul 1, 2010 2:36:18 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

I still don't understand why the Union Jack flag is inappropriate at team England football/soccer games, especially since pro team England fans often display it.

How can you not understand when it's been explained to you in detail?

The Union Jack is not the flag of England. That some England fans are so badly educated, arrogant or ignorant that they choose to use it does not mean it's ok.

If you genuinely are unable to comprehend why Welsh, Irish and Scottish people find it offensive when the British interest and the English interest are regarded as being the same thing, then you obviously don't understand patriotism or national pride.

To be fair Riotgrrl - it is only in the last 5 years or so you have been able to get a Cross Of St George flag easily.

[june]

Jul 1, 2010 19:48:08 GMT @riotgrrl said:

Jul 1, 2010 12:37:53 GMT alanseago said:

I do not classify things as appropriate or inappropriate. That is simply a devious way of imposing ones values upon others.

Really?

I think 'inappropriate' is quite a nice way of saying 'offensive and ignorant' without actually having to be that rude.

I see nothing wrong with saying "I feel that remark is offensive and ignorant"

[alanseago]

So is it offensive or ignorant to wave a Union Flag? Offensive to whom?
Many years ago, my son rode around with a South Korean flag fluttering behind his bicycle. No-one complained.
There were, of course, no pretentious or pseudo-nationalist North Koreans about.

[riotgrrl]

Jul 1, 2010 21:25:01 GMT alanseago said:

So is it offensive or ignorant to wave a Union Flag? Offensive to whom?
Many years ago, my son rode around with a South Korean flag fluttering behind his bicycle. No-one complained.
There were, of course, no pretentious or pseudo-nationalist North Koreans about.

Unless your son was representing England in the South Korean bike-racing championship, you've kind of missed the entire point here.

[♫anna♫]

Jul 1, 2010 23:55:22 GMT @riotgrrl said:

Jul 1, 2010 21:25:01 GMT alanseago said:

So is it offensive or ignorant to wave a Union Flag? Offensive to whom?
Many years ago, my son rode around with a South Korean flag fluttering behind his bicycle. No-one complained.
There were, of course, no pretentious or pseudo-nationalist North Koreans about.

Unless your son was representing England in the South Korean bike-racing championship, you've kind of missed the entire point here.

The picture above is a recreation of the battle of Freeman's Farm ( Saratoga ), which occured during the US War for Independence. I'm amazed at the English/British ability to create so many diverse flags for each colony, etc. etc.. I honestly have no idea if any of the flags for King George the III's troops as depicted above ( only a small sample of existing British empire flags ) would be offensive to English fans at a team England match. Maybe Mike, Lin, AlphaHooligan and other UK citizens could add their input. It's news to me that English fans may in part at least be offended by the Union Jack!

[riotgrrl]

Jul 2, 2010 4:39:35 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

Jul 1, 2010 23:55:22 GMT @riotgrrl said:

Unless your son was representing England in the South Korean bike-racing championship, you've kind of missed the entire point here.

The picture above is a recreation of the battle of Freeman's Farm ( Saratoga ), which occured during the US War for Independence. I'm amazed at the English/British ability to create so many diverse flags for each colony, etc. etc.. I honestly have no idea if any of the flags for King George the III's troops as depicted above ( only a small sample of existing British empire flags ) would be offensive to English fans at a team England match. Maybe Mike, Lin, AlphaHooligan and other UK citizens could add their input. It's news to me that English fans may in part at least be offended by the Union Jack!

"English/British ability" . . why the confusion? Were they English colonies or British colonies? Or do you still think they're the same thing.

If I was English - and I'm not - I would want my own flag at international football matches, not the Union Jack, or the flag of the EU, or the flag of the United Nations. Not that England isn't IN any of these institutions, but they are not representing those institutions.

And, if you tried to fly the Union Jack at an event where Scotland per se was represented (such as the World Cup . . ha ha ha sometimes) a riot would ensue. The Scots, as the smaller partner in the Union, are more sensitivie about these kind of things as is the way in multi-national states the world over.


Incidentally, I see the Sun yesterday was calling Andy Murray 'from the Home Counties' . . . but that's another debate I guess.

[alanseago]

I am English and I will wave whichever flag I please, I have nothing to prove. At a France v England rugby match, I shout for England. At an Ireland v France match, I shout for Ireland.
If you want independence vote in your referendum, you may have to go to the back of the queue to join the EU, presuming you want to.
You may have realised by now, that nationality is not high on my priorities list. I am English because I was born in England, British because England is part of Great Britain and European because Great Britain is in Europe. Why should I be proud of this, I didn't do anything.

[fretslider]

Jul 2, 2010 7:37:55 GMT @riotgrrl said:

Jul 2, 2010 4:39:35 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

The picture above is a recreation of the battle of Freeman's Farm ( Saratoga ), which occured during the US War for Independence. I'm amazed at the English/British ability to create so many diverse flags for each colony, etc. etc.. I honestly have no idea if any of the flags for King George the III's troops as depicted above ( only a small sample of existing British empire flags ) would be offensive to English fans at a team England match. Maybe Mike, Lin, AlphaHooligan and other UK citizens could add their input. It's news to me that English fans may in part at least be offended by the Union Jack!

"English/British ability" . . why the confusion? Were they English colonies or British colonies? Or do you still think they're the same thing.

If I was English - and I'm not - I would want my own flag at international football matches, not the Union Jack, or the flag of the EU, or the flag of the United Nations. Not that England isn't IN any of these institutions, but they are not representing those institutions.

And, if you tried to fly the Union Jack at an event where Scotland per se was represented (such as the World Cup . . ha ha ha sometimes) a riot would ensue. The Scots, as the smaller partner in the Union, are more sensitivie about these kind of things as is the way in multi-national states the world over.


Incidentally, I see the Sun yesterday was calling Andy Murray 'from the Home Counties' . . . but that's another debate I guess.

The English Flag


A Tattered Rag



You read the Sun?

Who's Andy Murray?

[alanseago]

How enlightening!
No I don't read the Sun or the Mail. We get Le Monde around here but I mainly watch TF1.

[alanseago]

Don't know Andy but I remember his sister:
www.rubymurray.org/

[riotgrrl]

Jul 2, 2010 9:19:32 GMT alanseago said:

I am English and I will wave whichever flag I please, I have nothing to prove. At a France v England rugby match, I shout for England. At an Ireland v France match, I shout for Ireland.
If you want independence vote in your referendum, you may have to go to the back of the queue to join the EU, presuming you want to.
You may have realised by now, that nationality is not high on my priorities list. I am English because I was born in England, British because England is part of Great Britain and European because Great Britain is in Europe. Why should I be proud of this, I didn't do anything.

Alan, nobody is or has in any way disputed your right to fly whatever flag you want if at all. You are not a national football team.

And, of course, Scotland is already in the EU, and the rule in international law when states break up is that the successor states inherit all the international treaty obligations of the parent state, so you're just wrong on that one.

You don't have to be proud of anything . It's not about you.

Anna is unable to understand why it's, at best, inappropriate for England to use the Union flag at sporting events they are participating in as England, or why using the Union flag to represent Scotland in a similar situation would cause a riot.

Whatever flag Alan Seago chooses to fly is not really relevant here. So I suggest you start waving the white one. ;D

[alanseago]

I'll stick to the red one, thank you. This thread seemed to start off about 'waving the wrong flag at a football match'. I may have been mistaken, I wasn't paying that much attention.
I did not contemplate asking your permission. A lapse of etiquette on my part, I fear.

[♫anna♫]

Jul 2, 2010 7:37:55 GMT @riotgrrl said:

And, if you tried to fly the Union Jack at an event where Scotland per se was represented (such as the World Cup . . ha ha ha sometimes) a riot would ensue. The Scots, as the smaller partner in the Union, are more sensitivie about these kind of things as is the way in multi-national states the world over.

Yes! I'd expect the Scots, the Irish and probably the Welsh too to dislike the Union Jack! I made that clear in one of my earlier posts on this!

Maybe the French would have done better with their colonies, if they made a "uniting flag" for their conquests, colonies and foreign interests.

[♫anna♫]

Jul 2, 2010 14:44:04 GMT @riotgrrl said:

Jul 2, 2010 9:19:32 GMT alanseago said:

I am English and I will wave whichever flag I please, I have nothing to prove. At a France v England rugby match, I shout for England. At an Ireland v France match, I shout for Ireland.
If you want independence vote in your referendum, you may have to go to the back of the queue to join the EU, presuming you want to.
You may have realised by now, that nationality is not high on my priorities list. I am English because I was born in England, British because England is part of Great Britain and European because Great Britain is in Europe. Why should I be proud of this, I didn't do anything.

Alan, nobody is or has in any way disputed your right to fly whatever flag you want if at all. You are not a national football team.

And, of course, Scotland is already in the EU, and the rule in international law when states break up is that the successor states inherit all the international treaty obligations of the parent state, so you're just wrong on that one.

You don't have to be proud of anything . It's not about you.

Anna is unable to understand why it's, at best, inappropriate for England to use the Union flag at sporting events they are participating in as England, or why using the Union flag to represent Scotland in a similar situation would cause a riot.

Whatever flag Alan Seago chooses to fly is not really relevant here. So I suggest you start waving the white one. ;D

I realize that team England uses the same English flag that was used during the 100 Years War against France! It was simply the abundance of team England fans that use the Union Jack instead that inspired this discussion!

Me thinks the English would resent a Scot telling them which flag is appropriate or not at THEIR football games more than the fact that some team England fans whatever their orgin may be root for team England with a Union Jack!

[alanseago]

Last word.

Attachments:

[o]

Jul 1, 2010 11:52:38 GMT @riotgrrl said:

Why the confusion as to why it is inappropriate to fly the wrong flag?

I understand you perfectly and my Dad who is into his sport says you are on the button about the football etc.

[DAS (formerly BushAdmirer)]

Ann Says the Kagan hearings surpass the World Cup for most boring event on TV. Haven't watched either so can't comment.

townhall.com/columnists/AnnCoulter/2010/06/30/kagan_hearings_surpass_world_cup_for_most_boring_tv_event

[♫anna♫]

Jul 2, 2010 16:21:15 GMT alanseago said:

Last word.

Right on Alan!
Now that looks interesting! I'll bet i could wave that flag at any football/soccer match without offending anyone! Not that i'm a fan, but i could do my calestenics, without being conspicious, by waving that flag around! ;D

[♫anna♫]

Jul 3, 2010 0:24:59 GMT DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) said:

Ann Says the Kagan hearings surpass the World Cup for most boring event on TV. Haven't watched either so can't comment.

townhall.com/columnists/AnnCoulter/2010/06/30/kagan_hearings_surpass_world_cup_for_most_boring_tv_event

I think the World Cup is great at teaching geography! Honestly how many members here knew EXACTLY where Uruguay and Paraguay were! I had a vague idea, but if i saw a map before the World Cup with these names switched it would have fooled me!

[♫anna♫]

Uruguay beats Ghana 4 to 2 and advances!

The Netherlands beats Brazil 2 to 1! I don't get the ghoulish masks!

Careful not to call the Netherlands "Holland" unless you're sure that any Dutchmen listening are residents of that part of the Netherlands.

[♫anna♫]

03/07 16:00 Cape Town Argentina vs Germany
03/07 20:30 Johannesburg Paraguay vs Spain

Most Germans seem to admit that Argentina has a stronger team. The Argentinians have been waiting 4 years to avenge their loss to Germany and elimination in the World Cup 2006!

[riotgrrl]

Jul 2, 2010 15:42:43 GMT alanseago said:

I'll stick to the red one, thank you. This thread seemed to start off about 'waving the wrong flag at a football match'. I may have been mistaken, I wasn't paying that much attention.
I did not contemplate asking your permission. A lapse of etiquette on my part, I fear.

My permission for what?

So far as I can see, you haven't mentioned the question of which flag to fly at football matches, but have, instead, shared your various opnions and experiences involving flags before inventing scaremongering lies about how international law works.

You don't need my permission to do that.

[riotgrrl]

Jul 2, 2010 15:58:17 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

Me thinks the English would resent a Scot telling them which flag is appropriate or not at THEIR football games more than the fact that some team England fans whatever their orgin may be root for team England with a Union Jack!

[/color][/size] [/quote]

That's tough.

The misuse of the Union Jack is a matter for all the countries in the UK, not a matter of personal choice by one of them.

[alanseago]

'You don't need my permission to do that.' That was the point, no-one needs your permission to do anything. There are no regulations governing the choice of which flag to wave.
I do apologize if my dig about the EU scared you, it was not meant to be taken seriously.
Which flag do I wave at football matches? I don't go to football matches.

[june]

Wasn't the point that anna used the wrong flag to represent England?