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Post by june on Dec 13, 2009 18:07:14 GMT
Sweden has swung from acceptance to assuming that every client knows the woman is reluctantly trafficked even though the UK at least has produced no evidence of any prostitutes trafficked against their will. However, there is proof that such exist even if they cant be proven to formal legal requirements. My own feeling is that intercourse without the other's equal 'desire' or caring how she feels about it is tantamount to rape but sailing just on the right side of the wind. The man who looks on a woman as a provider of sex for himself without caring how she feels about it as long as he can browbeat her into giving consent to make it legally acceptable today is the man liable to use illegal pressure or just plain force for the same service tomorrow. Strangely, it is women who most support this kind of social rape, especially when they call themselves feminists. I can't condemn prostitution outright. I can criticise both the attitude of men to think of sex as for themselves and not shared, and of women to see it 'traditionally' as a service for sale to men that women are too superior to the coarse masculine world to enjoy. There can be sexual thrills that anybody with love and respect for their lover knows they do not enjoy, so might sek them elsewhere. I find it personally humiliating if I thought I wanted some kink so weird, or I was so repulsive, that I could only get it by paying. Shall I post a Christmas quiz asking members to guess who this is? ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2009 18:30:42 GMT
As I posted earlier LW - I have no idea. Legalisation won't 'work' until prostitutes are not coerced into 'working'. At the moment in the UK prostitution is illegal and therefore those breaking the law should be punished - otherwise what is the point in the law? If there is no point in the law - then get a better alternative, but I haven't seen anyone suggest one yet. I realise now that I am totally at sea. What is, and what is not, now illegal? It used to be the case that advertising for sex (including streetwalking) was illegal, as was kerb crawling and living off immoral earnings (pimping). However selling and buying sex was never a crime. Harriet Harman proposed some reforms, and to be honest I don't know what made it to the statute books and what didn't!
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Post by june on Dec 13, 2009 21:12:11 GMT
As I posted earlier LW - I have no idea. Legalisation won't 'work' until prostitutes are not coerced into 'working'. At the moment in the UK prostitution is illegal and therefore those breaking the law should be punished - otherwise what is the point in the law? If there is no point in the law - then get a better alternative, but I haven't seen anyone suggest one yet. I realise now that I am totally at sea. What is, and what is not, now illegal? It used to be the case that advertising for sex (including streetwalking) was illegal, as was kerb crawling and living off immoral earnings (pimping). However selling and buying sex was never a crime. Harriet Harman proposed some reforms, and to be honest I don't know what made it to the statute books and what didn't! Here's what Wiki says: England and Wales In England and Wales: for a "common prostitute" to loiter or conduct solicitation in a street or public place is illegal, therefore outlawing street prostitution it is also illegal for a potential client to solicit in a public place, or solicit from a motor vehicle ("kerb crawling"). (In 1991 the head of the Crown Prosecution Service, Sir Allan Green, was caught committing this offence and resigned.) keeping a brothel is illegal (It is an offence for a person to keep, or to manage, or act or assist in the management of, a brothel to which people resort for practices involving prostitution [4]); a brothel is a premises where two or more prostitutes work. controlling prostitution for gain is an offence, banning pimping escort agencies are illegal where the agency is controlling the escorts. a prostitute is defined by the Sexual Offences Act 2003 as a someone who has offered or provided sexual services to another person in return for any financial arrangement on at least one occasion. This definition replaces the previous definition of a common prostitute. working as a prostitute in private is legal, as is working as an outcall escort. child prostitution is specifically illegal for the person paying (where child is defined as below 18). The last offence replaced the similar "living on earnings of prostitution" under the Sexual Offences Act 1956. [edit] Reform to prostitution laws Currently, the Government is planning to make it illegal to pay for sex with a prostitute "controlled for another gain" (such as a pimp or a brothel owner). Changes to the prostitution laws will be included in the Policing and Crime Bill 2009[5], which is currently (November 2009) being debated in the House of Lords. According to the present law, one prostitute may work from an indoor premises, but if there are two or more prostitutes the place is considered a brothel and it is illegal. Historically, local police forces have wavered between zero tolerance of prostitution and unofficial red light districts. During recent years there has been long and widespread debate about the legal situation of prostitution in the UK, and, currently, the government appears to favour tough "anti-prostitution" laws. The debate had centred around whether UK should follow the example of Netherlands, Germany or New Zealand and tolerate prostitution, or whether the country should make it illegal to pay for sex, like in Sweden, Norway and Iceland. In 2006, the government raised the possibility of loosening the prostitution laws and allowing small brothels in England and Wales, but in the end the plans to allow "mini brothels" were abandoned, after fears that such establishments would bring pimps and drug dealers into residential areas. Instead, it was decided that prostitution should not be tolerated and the laws should become even stricter. After this, government ministers suggested that rather than permitting mini-brothels, they would like to tackle the "demand side" of prostitution and make it illegal to pay for sex.[6] One proponent of this was Minister for Women and Equality, Harriet Harman.[7][8] Ministers pointed to Sweden, where purchasing sexual services is a criminal offence. The government's tougher approach towards prostitution began to make legislative progress in 2008, as Home Secretary Jacqui Smith announced that paying for sex from a prostitute under the control of a pimp would become a criminal offence. Clients could also face rape charges for knowingly paying for sex from an illegally trafficked woman, and first-time offenders could face charges.[8] The English Collective of Prostitutes (ECP) is an organization that lobbies for the full decriminalization of prostitution,[8] with one member, Nikki Adams, saying that the government was overstating the extent of the trafficking problem, and that most prostitution was consensual.[8] The International Union of Sex Workers, which is part of the GMB Union, campaigns for decriminalization and extension of labour rights for those who work in the sex industry.[9]
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Post by lonewolf on Dec 14, 2009 3:54:35 GMT
then get a better alternative, but I haven't seen anyone suggest one yet. I suggest the better alternative would be for you and your government to learn that what goes on behind closed doors between two consenting adults is really none of your business.
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Post by june on Dec 14, 2009 9:37:51 GMT
then get a better alternative, but I haven't seen anyone suggest one yet. I suggest the better alternative would be for you and your government to learn that what goes on behind closed doors between two consenting adults is really none of your business. LW you are attributing points of view to me that I just don't have. I have no problem with jointly consensual acts- the issue is: how to you determine genuine consent from a drug addict, mentally ill person or someone in crushing poverty? All in all I live in the uk for a reason. I like the way we do thingshere, mostly.
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Post by iamjumbo on Dec 14, 2009 13:48:46 GMT
same reason we arrest other criminals, to deter, to punish etc. I see, so you actually think that you are going to deter the Johns from paying for sex if you start arresting them. Seriously, do you really and truly believe that? the FACT is lad, johns ARE arrested. the police department in virtually every city does stings every now and then, using a policewoman to draw them, and then arrest them. in some areas, those arrested have their photos printed in the newspaper. there are very few cases of recidivism. that's just the way it is in the real world
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Post by iamjumbo on Dec 14, 2009 13:56:32 GMT
then get a better alternative, but I haven't seen anyone suggest one yet. I suggest the better alternative would be for you and your government to learn that what goes on behind closed doors between two consenting adults is really none of your business. which has absolutely NO relevance to this subject whatsoever. no one is talking about anything that goes on behind closed doors between two consenting adults. you need to get a grip lad just a little clue. the sex between two consenting adults behind closed doors is NOT illegal, nor even being discussed. it is the solicitation for the sex, which is in public, or over a public utility, that is illegal, as it should be, and the law is NOT remotely intrusive on anyone's legitimate rights
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Post by beez0811 on Dec 14, 2009 23:51:24 GMT
Legal prostitution is much safer than the inevitable illegal prostitution, which arises when it's outlawed. Prostitution is legal in Germany and those, who choose this so-called "oldest profession" are checked every week for veneral diseases. Some studies suggest that crimes such as rape, etc. decline, when sex can be legally purchased. obviously, if it were properly controlled, it would not be a problem. however, it wouldn't affect rape. rape has nothing to do with sex. it is totally a power trip, with sex used as the weapon. a rapist would rape the prostitute Exactly. If someone wants to go out and rape someone else, they still will whether prostitution is legal or illegal. Some will do it out of revenge, hate, or just for the sake of power. Paying someone for sex isn't quite enough for them.
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Post by lonewolf on Dec 15, 2009 20:36:14 GMT
which has absolutely NO relevance to this subject whatsoever. no one is talking about anything that goes on behind closed doors between two consenting adults. you need to get a grip lad just a little clue. the sex between two consenting adults behind closed doors is NOT illegal, nor even being discussed. it is the solicitation for the sex, which is in public, or over a public utility, that is illegal, as it should be, and the law is NOT remotely intrusive on anyone's legitimate rights Son, please, spare me your ignorance for just one day. pros•ti•tu•tion NOUN: 1. The act or practice of engaging in sex acts for hire. Prostitution: the business of having sex for money.
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Post by lonewolf on Dec 15, 2009 21:01:21 GMT
If someone wants to go out and rape someone else, they still will whether prostitution is legal or illegal. Some will do it out of revenge, hate, or just for the sake of power. Paying someone for sex isn't quite enough for them. Obviously those who committed rape in areas where prostitution is legal weren’t satisfied with paying someone for sex. However, as far as I know, there is no real way to tell how many individuals refrained from such criminal activity simply because their sexual urges were satisfied by the availability of prostitutes. After all, we do know that sexual repression leads to violence.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 19:33:36 GMT
lonewolf - what was wrong with Iamjumbo's post ? Payiong for sex isn't illegal, is it?
As for sexual repression causing violence - in what way? There are plenty of people who manage very nicely by themselves, if you see what I mean.
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Post by iamjumbo on Dec 16, 2009 20:56:10 GMT
If someone wants to go out and rape someone else, they still will whether prostitution is legal or illegal. Some will do it out of revenge, hate, or just for the sake of power. Paying someone for sex isn't quite enough for them. Obviously those who committed rape in areas where prostitution is legal weren’t satisfied with paying someone for sex. However, as far as I know, there is no real way to tell how many individuals refrained from such criminal activity simply because their sexual urges were satisfied by the availability of prostitutes. After all, we do know that sexual repression leads to violence. you really shouldn't be so daft. i just got through telling you that rape has absolutely NOTHING to do with sexual urges. if their were women on every corner giving it away for free, the rapist would NOT participate. rape is a crime of violence, a power trip, solely to subjugate the woman, and the sex is merely the means by which it is accomplished. the rapist does not, EVER want consensual sex. come on out of your grotto into the REAL world sometime
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Post by iamjumbo on Dec 16, 2009 20:59:35 GMT
which has absolutely NO relevance to this subject whatsoever. no one is talking about anything that goes on behind closed doors between two consenting adults. you need to get a grip lad just a little clue. the sex between two consenting adults behind closed doors is NOT illegal, nor even being discussed. it is the solicitation for the sex, which is in public, or over a public utility, that is illegal, as it should be, and the law is NOT remotely intrusive on anyone's legitimate rights Son, please, spare me your ignorance for just one day. pros•ti•tu•tion NOUN: 1. The act or practice of engaging in sex acts for hire. Prostitution: the business of having sex for money. damm, you really do need a remedial course in reading comprehension. what the hell does the dictionary definition of prostitution have to do with anything? once again clown, the sex is NOT illegal. it is the exchange of money in return for sex that is illegal. any first grader can understand such a simple concept. why can't you?
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Post by iamjumbo on Dec 16, 2009 21:02:06 GMT
lonewolf - what was wrong with Iamjumbo's post ? Payiong for sex isn't illegal, is it? As for sexual repression causing violence - in what way? There are plenty of people who manage very nicely by themselves, if you see what I mean. it sounds like he's been managing very nicely, or not, by himself for a good while. my mom always told me that doing that would make you insane. now i believe her
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2009 7:07:01 GMT
JUmbo, from your last-but-one post I read that the mere act of paying for sex is illegal in the US (or at least parts of it) which isn't the situation in the UK. That must be a law that is very hard to enforce!
As for sexual repression...well, I realise ow that I'm not even sure what that means. Some kind of sexual hang-up rather than the ere lack of a partner, perhaps.
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Post by iamjumbo on Dec 17, 2009 22:37:03 GMT
JUmbo, from your last-but-one post I read that the mere act of paying for sex is illegal in the US (or at least parts of it) which isn't the situation in the UK. That must be a law that is very hard to enforce! As for sexual repression...well, I realise ow that I'm not even sure what that means. Some kind of sexual hang-up rather than the ere lack of a partner, perhaps. the exchange of money for sex is what makes it a crime. if you were walking down the street, and picked up a girl for sex, that is perfectly legal, as long as no money, or drugs, etc change hands. actually, the exchange of money for the promise of sex is the crime. the sex doesn't actually have to occur. once the money is exchanged, the crime has been committed sexual repression is a meaningless term used by some as an excuse for their ineptitude in forming meaningful relationships. even during victorian times, when sex was considered dirty and frowned upon, very few actually went without
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Post by Liberator on Dec 18, 2009 2:36:12 GMT
JUmbo, from your last-but-one post I read that the mere act of paying for sex is illegal in the US (or at least parts of it) which isn't the situation in the UK. That must be a law that is very hard to enforce! Advertising sexual services is illegal in the UK and that includes streetwalking and so are keeping a brothel and living off the proceeds of somebody else's work. All intended to protect women from being forced into prostitution and all failing miserably but causing troubles for women who see it as a means to make a very good living, or at the other ends, to survive. I'm afraid that the prospect of sex with somebody I know has no interest in the proceedings and may secretly despise me for it is an utter turn-off. The thought of somebody taking large amounts of money off me for something kinky that she does enjoy gets up my nose, though it might be better than the embarrassment of entering some fetish club and feeling that one is supposed to feel friends but in fact does not. anyway, I tried it a few times nearly 30 years ago and could only think I wish I were back with J who used to like this kind of thing. Still, better than sulking or demanding of a friend you know does not enjoy it. The proper response (at least according to my mother!) to "If you loved me you would" is "If you loved me, you wouldn't ask". That said, I can't see anything wrong with it and if that's what people want to do, let them. But let them do it on terms of Holland (where they've actually closed a lot of brothels) and France before the 5th Republic (and in old New Orleans), in brothels where the 'girls' can be protected and inspected, as much for their good as for any client's and with the kind of atmosphere that the brothel was a place to go to have a good time, of which sex was only the culmination. Many a great jazz artiste started work playing in a New Orleans brothel and Toulouse-Lautrec famously kept working there. I have a damnside more respect for prostitutes than for financiers and lawyers! I think the new Swedish law which more or less amounts to clients being expected to extract proof that the lady is not a victim of trafficking wholely retrograde (and so, it seems, do Stockholm's prostitutes). It's on a par with the old law that held a man guilty of underage sex unless he had positively been able to prove the girl over-age. It's something she's never going to admit anyway! Last I remember seeing was that not one single case of women forced into prostitution by traffickers had come to light in the UK and illegal East Europeans who were into it had chosen to be so. I find that suspicious in light of a documentary here a year or two ago that showed women and girls most definitely have been hoodwinked and raped into prostitution, in one case one who got away being brought back from Europe by the wife in the trafficking partnership whom she did not know, thinking she was arranging transport further on. It reminds me of the glowing reports prisoners are likely to give when they know the screws will be watching after the reporters have gone home. This was significant because Ireland at the time had no laws against trafficking but did have against illegal entry except to claim asylum (we are consitutionally more liberal than the EU requires), so any victim faced prosecution and deportation if not jail. I hope Dáil Éireann has taken enough time off from swearing at each other to correct this madness! I'd take it to mean a fear, whereas inhibition would mean a suppression so deep that it has become simply a prejudice or negative preference of what one just does not want to do. That's the mistake often made about 'The Victorians' and 20th century equivalents, like my grandmother and many of her generation and in fact many of my mother's though despite her mother's own feelings she was brought up much more liberally, almost 'proto-feminist', and passed it on to me. They weren't desperate for sex they were afraid to do, it was just ingrained in them to dislike it, the same way most of us learn inhibition against homosexual behaviour, a few against heterosexual and the respectable majority against sex with animals, children and the unwilling, but not machines (more for women than men). Any normal citizen of the Classical world and vast periods of Chinese, Japanese and Ottoman history would probably think us more sexually hung up than a pornographic trapeze act! We are all inhibited and prejudiced some way or another, and some ways a damned good thing too!
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Post by lonewolf on Dec 18, 2009 7:33:45 GMT
what the hell does the dictionary definition of prostitution have to do with anything? It has nothing to do with anything and everything to do with prostitution! Really, Dumbo, words do have meaning. it is the exchange of money in return for sex that is illegal. Well then, sex is still involved one way or another. any first grader can understand such a simple concept. why can't you? Most first graders start their sentences with capital letters; why can’t you? i just got through telling you that rape has absolutely NOTHING to do with sexual urges. Son, I don’t want to have to tell you this again; stop regurgitating all that new age feminist psychology crap that you’ve been reading. www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article3137644.ece my mom always told me that doing that would make you insane. now i believe her Well then, maybe you ought to give your hand a rest for a while and see if your sanity returns.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2009 9:06:43 GMT
FiFee (I can't remember who called you that, but I like it!) yes, a lot of that post makes sense. As you say, thank goodness for our inhibitions! But a lot of us were taught that masturbation is a Bad Thing, and of course it isn't, especially if it can save a man from the "need" to woo a woman he doesn't really like or use a prostitute....apart from anything else, just think of the money it will save him!!
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Post by iamjumbo on Dec 18, 2009 10:48:27 GMT
JUmbo, from your last-but-one post I read that the mere act of paying for sex is illegal in the US (or at least parts of it) which isn't the situation in the UK. That must be a law that is very hard to enforce! Advertising sexual services is illegal in the UK and that includes streetwalking and so are keeping a brothel and living off the proceeds of somebody else's work. All intended to protect women from being forced into prostitution and all failing miserably but causing troubles for women who see it as a means to make a very good living, or at the other ends, to survive. I'm afraid that the prospect of sex with somebody I know has no interest in the proceedings and may secretly despise me for it is an utter turn-off. The thought of somebody taking large amounts of money off me for something kinky that she does enjoy gets up my nose, though it might be better than the embarrassment of entering some fetish club and feeling that one is supposed to feel friends but in fact does not. anyway, I tried it a few times nearly 30 years ago and could only think I wish I were back with J who used to like this kind of thing. Still, better than sulking or demanding of a friend you know does not enjoy it. The proper response (at least according to my mother!) to "If you loved me you would" is "If you loved me, you wouldn't ask". That said, I can't see anything wrong with it and if that's what people want to do, let them. But let them do it on terms of Holland (where they've actually closed a lot of brothels) and France before the 5th Republic (and in old New Orleans), in brothels where the 'girls' can be protected and inspected, as much for their good as for any client's and with the kind of atmosphere that the brothel was a place to go to have a good time, of which sex was only the culmination. Many a great jazz artiste started work playing in a New Orleans brothel and Toulouse-Lautrec famously kept working there. I have a damnside more respect for prostitutes than for financiers and lawyers! I think the new Swedish law which more or less amounts to clients being expected to extract proof that the lady is not a victim of trafficking wholely retrograde (and so, it seems, do Stockholm's prostitutes). It's on a par with the old law that held a man guilty of underage sex unless he had positively been able to prove the girl over-age. It's something she's never going to admit anyway! Last I remember seeing was that not one single case of women forced into prostitution by traffickers had come to light in the UK and illegal East Europeans who were into it had chosen to be so. I find that suspicious in light of a documentary here a year or two ago that showed women and girls most definitely have been hoodwinked and raped into prostitution, in one case one who got away being brought back from Europe by the wife in the trafficking partnership whom she did not know, thinking she was arranging transport further on. It reminds me of the glowing reports prisoners are likely to give when they know the screws will be watching after the reporters have gone home. This was significant because Ireland at the time had no laws against trafficking but did have against illegal entry except to claim asylum (we are consitutionally more liberal than the EU requires), so any victim faced prosecution and deportation if not jail. I hope Dáil Éireann has taken enough time off from swearing at each other to correct this madness! I'd take it to mean a fear, whereas inhibition would mean a suppression so deep that it has become simply a prejudice or negative preference of what one just does not want to do. That's the mistake often made about 'The Victorians' and 20th century equivalents, like my grandmother and many of her generation and in fact many of my mother's though despite her mother's own feelings she was brought up much more liberally, almost 'proto-feminist', and passed it on to me. They weren't desperate for sex they were afraid to do, it was just ingrained in them to dislike it, the same way most of us learn inhibition against homosexual behaviour, a few against heterosexual and the respectable majority against sex with animals, children and the unwilling, but not machines (more for women than men). Any normal citizen of the Classical world and vast periods of Chinese, Japanese and Ottoman history would probably think us more sexually hung up than a pornographic trapeze act! We are all inhibited and prejudiced some way or another, and some ways a damned good thing too! you summed it up quite nicely
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