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Post by jean on Aug 27, 2010 19:15:42 GMT
Explain!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2010 20:08:28 GMT
It just seems to me that you and Mouse agree about a great deal on this subject, Jean.
However, I haven't followed all the thread so may have missed the main points of difference; I'm a bit Pippop'd out when it comes to FGM.
(note to others - the topic of FGM was frequently brought up by a poster called Pippop on the BBC Woman's Hours board. She certainly entightened me, and didn't spare the details)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2010 5:48:22 GMT
My head is clearer in the morning! What I think I was trying to say is that Mouse may have misunderstod what Jean was trying to say.....!
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Post by mouse on Aug 28, 2010 6:02:13 GMT
i also know and have said it predates islam..also that some christians and non christiatians practise this...that is not in contention at all what is in contention is whether it is islamic or not i say it is based on the hadiths....... you apear to say it isnt based it would seem on some egyptian scholars i say it is not mandatory but is an islamic practise just as the hijab is not mandatory but is an islamic practise i really cannot be clearerr than that
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Post by Big Lin on Aug 28, 2010 20:08:38 GMT
Look, MOST female genital mutilation is practised by NON-MUSLIMS!
A tiny MINORITY of Muslims practise it and it is ILLEGAL in many Muslim countries.
Let's STOP pretending that this is an ISLAMIC issue when in fact for the most part it's carried out by NON-MUSLIMS!
This thread is beginning to remind me of Hitler talking about the Jews in 'Mein Kampf!'
Let's have some honesty and some balance here, please, or I'll move this thread to Vendetta.
Enough said?
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Aug 29, 2010 4:15:03 GMT
Dearest Lin! You have to concede that FGM in Indonesia is widespread and a serious problem! It apparently didn't exist there, until "the Indonesian brand of Islam" established itself there. NO! I'm not saying that FGM is a part of Islam anymore than the inquisition is a part of Christianity.
It's also true that many Muslim governments have outlawed FGM.
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Post by mouse on Aug 29, 2010 7:40:56 GMT
Look, MOST female genital mutilation is practised by NON-MUSLIMS! A tiny MINORITY of Muslims practise it and it is ILLEGAL in many Muslim countries. Let's STOP pretending that this is an ISLAMIC issue when in fact for the most part it's carried out by NON-MUSLIMS! This thread is beginning to remind me of Hitler talking about the Jews in 'Mein Kampf!' Let's have some honesty and some balance here, please, or I'll move this thread to Vendetta. Enough said? lin if you move the thread into vendatta...fine....but it wont make the problem go away.. the facts remain the facts and anna has just added to those facts and hitler has nothing to do with FGM no one is PRETENDING any thing...and yes we know it is also practised by non muslims...it however,, """ what is in contention is whether it is islamic or not i say it is based on the hadiths....... i say it is not mandatory but is an islamic practise just as the hijab is not mandatory but is an islamic practise i really cannot be clearerr than that""""" i fail to see how this translates into being against islam or muslims or what the problem is....FGM exist.... some thing can be asociated with a group while not being mandatory to that group...christmas day or confirmation..the last rites for example are to very much christian things ..yet it could be argued that non of these things are christian....yet they are practised by christians in industry it would be known as custom and practise
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Post by mouse on Aug 29, 2010 7:51:19 GMT
in fact i will do this the islamic way... because the justification for FGM is a hadith...show me the part of the koran or a hadith that says the practise is UN islamic because what we say on this message board aint worth a can of beans and it what the koran and hadiths say which is important ....just as those muslims the other night were considering cousin marriage to be allowable on the basis that the koran and the hadiths didnt raise any objections
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Post by jean on Aug 29, 2010 8:08:27 GMT
Mouse, Muslims who practise FGM may jusify it on the grounds that it's Islamic, but that doesn't mean they're right, as other Muslims point out to them.
I'm glad you mentioned cousin marriage, because that's a very good parallel - it is indeed regrded by some Muslims as necessary, but in fact it is not integral to Islam and many Islamic societies don't practise it.
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Post by mouse on Aug 29, 2010 10:20:51 GMT
Mouse, Muslims who practise FGM may jusify it on the grounds that it's Islamic, but that doesn't mean they're right, as other Muslims point out to them. I'm glad you mentioned cousin marriage, because that's a very good parallel - it is indeed regrded by some Muslims as necessary, but in fact it is not integral to Islam and many Islamic societies don't practise it. i think i may have mentioned it before and have also mentioned the hijab.....i have always said it isnt mandatory...the fact remains the main man didnt condem and it all hinges on that...... it is therefore a practise in islam as is cousin marriage as is the hijab,,the burkha etc etc phewww glad thats sorted
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Post by jean on Aug 29, 2010 16:06:16 GMT
What on earth is that 'hinge' metaphor supposed to mean?
You'll have to do a lot better than that to 'sort' it.
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Post by mouse on Aug 29, 2010 16:52:41 GMT
What on earth is that 'hinge' metaphor supposed to mean? You'll have to do a lot better than that to 'sort' it. as to whether some thing is islamic hinges on what the prophet said,,did ie hadiths,,,or what is mentioned in the koran as told to the prophet,,same old same old just as revolting old men bed young girls because the prophet did..that is their excuse.... am losing the will to live
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Post by Big Lin on Aug 29, 2010 19:21:55 GMT
I'm going to have to post a separate thread explaining the FUNDAMENTAL difference between what is 'halal,' 'wajik,' 'maribuh,' 'mubah' and 'makauk'.
FGM is 'makauk' in Islam, by the way.
Incidentally, even though the hadiths ARE considered part of the 'sunnah,' they are NOT accorded the SAME degree of authority as the Qur'an and if they clash with the Qur'an then THAT takes precedence even over the hadiths!
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Post by Big Lin on Aug 29, 2010 19:22:56 GMT
By the way, FGM not only exists but is a widespread and serious problem in the CHRISTIAN parts of Africa - to a GREATER extent than ANYWHERE in the Muslim world.
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Post by sadie1263 on Aug 29, 2010 22:29:26 GMT
I really don't understand the argument here. Does it matter who or where it started? I could care less? How do you stop it? How do you fight a mentality.....no matter who's it is.....that could possibly have the mentality to think that is ok?
Do you just find a way to steal the women out of there? Is that the only way? But would they even leave? Is it just a matter of educating them? Can we go in there and castrate a few of the men and see how they like it?
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Post by Big Lin on Aug 29, 2010 22:34:29 GMT
My attitude is simple - I don't care WHO does something I think is wrong - I'm against it.
I don't single out certain groups for selective condemnation and refuse to condemn the others who do the say thing.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Aug 30, 2010 2:59:23 GMT
I'm going to have to post a separate thread explaining the FUNDAMENTAL difference between what is 'halal,' 'wajik,' 'maribuh,' 'mubah' and 'makauk'. FGM is 'makauk' in Islam, by the way. Incidentally, even though the hadiths ARE considered part of the 'sunnah,' they are NOT accorded the SAME degree of authority as the Qur'an and if they clash with the Qur'an then THAT takes precedence even over the hadiths! Dearest Lin! It's certainly not my intention to make Muslims or any single religion or group collectively guilty of FGM! The Shiite Muslims seem to have nothing to do with this practice! My favorite Muslims the Sufis and Dervishs also have nothing to do with this torture and mutilation.
Christianity, Judaiism and Islam spread to Africa, but haven't suceeded in freeing their converts from this evil Pharao tradition. I suspect that the African religions in these regions, e.g. animism, etc. also are guilty of FGM, but aren't held to the same moral standard.
Kurdistan seems to have succumbed to a deviant Sunnite sect, which practices FGM. The Berbers in parts of Saudi Arabia have also retained this horrible practice. Many Indonesian Sunnites practice a less extensive mutilation ( www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Religion/?id=3.1.197409597 ). Whether this is an export of Pharoism or the creation of deviant sects or both is hard to say.
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Post by mouse on Aug 30, 2010 7:44:50 GMT
By the way, FGM not only exists but is a widespread and serious problem in the CHRISTIAN parts of Africa - to a GREATER extent than ANYWHERE in the Muslim world. no one is in anyway denying the fact that FGM EXISTS out side the islamic mindset whether to a greater extent is not clear[from anything i have come across]..have you figures on this Lin
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Post by mouse on Aug 30, 2010 7:58:51 GMT
I really don't understand the argument here. Does it matter who or where it started? I could care less? How do you stop it? How do you fight a mentality.....no matter who's it is.....that could possibly have the mentality to think that is ok? Do you just find a way to steal the women out of there? Is that the only way? But would they even leave? Is it just a matter of educating them? Can we go in there and castrate a few of the men and see how they like it? no sadie it doesnt matter where it started..but its interesting to know the beginings of a custom and practise..and some times knowing the beginings can be a means to end a practise how you stop it is to destroy the myths around it....via education and showing people the health benefits of stopping it.... for muslims there is an excuse of sorts for the practise.... in that it is mentioned in the hadiths...for christians and others there is no excuse for the continuation of this dreadful practise from what i can make out the church doesnt go overboard on this issue although individual missionaries do their best..it needs a concerted effort by all including countries who provide aid to make FGM unaceptable but many of the countries involved have other priorities and are very much male dominated societies the fact that it is practised in europe and the uk needs to be adressed in the most outspoken terms Lin said My attitude is simple - I don't care WHO does something I think is wrong - I'm against it. I don't single out certain groups for selective condemnation and refuse to condemn the others who do the say thing."""" thats fine..if a thing is wrong it is most certainly wrong regardless of who does it...BUT different groups will have different reasoning for the same practise .. like obesity in tonga is for different reasons than it is in africa which again is different than the obesity in the uk
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Post by Big Lin on Aug 30, 2010 16:03:06 GMT
I really don't understand the argument here. Does it matter who or where it started? I could care less? How do you stop it? How do you fight a mentality.....no matter who's it is.....that could possibly have the mentality to think that is ok? Do you just find a way to steal the women out of there? Is that the only way? But would they even leave? Is it just a matter of educating them? Can we go in there and castrate a few of the men and see how they like it? no sadie it doesnt matter where it started..but its interesting to know the beginings of a custom and practise..and some times knowing the beginings can be a means to end a practise how you stop it is to destroy the myths around it....via education and showing people the health benefits of stopping it.... for muslims there is an excuse of sorts for the practise.... in that it is mentioned in the hadiths...for christians and others there is no excuse for the continuation of this dreadful practise from what i can make out the church doesnt go overboard on this issue although individual missionaries do their best..it needs a concerted effort by all including countries who provide aid to make FGM unaceptable but many of the countries involved have other priorities and are very much male dominated societies the fact that it is practised in europe and the uk needs to be adressed in the most outspoken terms Lin said My attitude is simple - I don't care WHO does something I think is wrong - I'm against it. I don't single out certain groups for selective condemnation and refuse to condemn the others who do the say thing."""" thats fine..if a thing is wrong it is most certainly wrong regardless of who does it...BUT different groups will have different reasoning for the same practise .. like obesity in tonga is for different reasons than it is in africa which again is different than the obesity in the uk Read my thread on shari'ah. FGM is not only at best tolerated but it is overwhelmingly seen by most imams and Muslim scholars as specifically condemned in the Qur'an. The origins of the practice LONG predate Islam. I posted an article on this thread pointing out this fact.
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