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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Sept 14, 2010 14:48:40 GMT
This is going to get nasty. Exporting criminals to their homeland is one thing. Exporting an entire population is quite another.......
BRUSSELS Sept 14, 2010 – France's deportations of Gypsies are "a disgrace" and probably break EU law, the European Union's executive body declared Tuesday in a stinging rebuke that set up a showdown with French President Nicolas Sarkozy's conservative government.
In recent weeks, French authorities have dismantled over 100 illegal camps and deported more than 1,000 Gypsies, also known as Roma, mainly back to Romania, in a crackdown that has drawn international condemnation.
The advocacy group Romeurope estimates that up to 15,000 Roma live in France. French authorities have no official estimate.
Sarkozy has linked Roma to crime, calling their camps sources of prostitution and child exploitation. He has insisted that France does not want to stigmatize Roma, but the deportation policy is being criticized as discriminatory because it singles out one community.
Reding at times appeared angry as she read out her statement at the European Commission's Brussels headquarters, once pounding the desk in front of her and saying: "Enough is enough."
"After 11 years of experience on the commission, I even go further: This is a disgrace," she said. "Discrimination on the basis or ethnic origin or race has no place in Europe."
She also harshly criticized French authorities for telling the EU commission that it was not discriminating against Gypsies — a claim apparently contradicted by news reports of a government letter ordering regional officials to speed up a crackdown on illegal Gypsy camps. EU Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding said she was appalled by the expulsions, "which gave that impression that people are being removed from a member state of the European Union just because they belong to an ethnic minority."
"(This) is a situation that I had thought that Europe would not have to witness again after the second World War," she told a news conference, adding "the commission will have no choice but to initiate infringement procedures against France."
France could ultimately be slapped with a fine by the European Court of Justice if its expulsions are found to have breached EU law. The crackdown continued Tuesday, as dozens of Roma arrived at Marseille airport in southern France prior to being expelled.
In Paris, French Foreign Ministry spokesman Bernard Valero expressed "astonishment — that's the least you can say" at the announcement by the European Commission.
"We don't think that with this type of statement, that we can improve the situation of the Roma, who are at the heart of our concerns and our action," Valero told reporters. "It's not time for polemic ... it's time for work in favor of the Roma population." Roma face widespread discrimination in housing, jobs and education across Europe. As EU citizens, they have a right to travel to France, but must get papers to work or live there in the long term.
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Post by mouse on Sept 14, 2010 16:27:08 GMT
Valero told reporters. "It's not time for polemic ... it's time for work in favor of the Roma population." Roma face widespread discrimination in housing, jobs and education across Europe. As EU citizens, they have a right to travel to France, but must get papers to work or live there in the long term. perhaps its time the countries of origin were tackled abouut the problems instead of exporting and expecting other countries to deal with it..stop having a go at france and germany and take a good look at the eastern european countries i was speaking to my french daughter in law about this..she says that its those in ilegal camps who are targetted and those picked up for begging and theft who have no jobs and just generally make a nusience of them selves ... those who are employed and living every day lives have nothing to worry about why should the french or us or any european peoples have to put up with ilegal camps etc etc etc ....more importantly why should we have to foot the bill
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 14, 2010 16:34:08 GMT
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Post by mouse on Sept 14, 2010 17:50:03 GMT
the EU needs to get a grip....this alltogether now is fine in practise...but not so fine in application.... perhaps eu members shiould be required to show they have a job and some where to live and have to apply to live in another member state....or show they have enough moneies on which to live when entering another member state.... it isnt working well when numbers of people just turn up on the doorstep and expect to be fed and housed..or think they can just make a camp where ever they please... the different expectationa and standards cause no end of problems its bad for those doing these things and bad for the ones having to put up with the situation it just causes trouble and bad feeling...all of which could be avoided...the whole process wasnt thought out properly the eu should be insisting that roumania..bulgaria etc act on the problems ...and also should be insisting that via tv....inform and tell their people exactly what sort of behaviour is aceptable....like manhole covers are NOT scrap metal..you dont camp in public parks..etc etc a big educational drive among other things is needed
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Post by sadie1263 on Sept 14, 2010 20:28:58 GMT
Well I don't see how this solves anything.
I don't know enough about the Roma people to say anything or suggest an answer. But it doesn't seem that packing them up and throwing them out into another country does anything but make it another country's problem.
It doesn't seem right if they are camping in illegal areas or expecting to be fed and housed for free.........what exactly is their situation?
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Post by mouse on Sept 15, 2010 6:10:43 GMT
Well I don't see how this solves anything. I don't know enough about the Roma people to say anything or suggest an answer. But it doesn't seem that packing them up and throwing them out into another country does anything but make it another country's problem. It doesn't seem right if they are camping in illegal areas or expecting to be fed and housed for free.........what exactly is their situation? but they are NOT being thrown into another country...they are being returned from whence they came ie country of origin i can only go by what MDL says....that those who are working and living just every day lives are NOT being deported..it is those who are making ilegal camps..and caught for criminality who are being sent back what is wrong with that...why should countries have to put up with crims and gangs..all very emotional stuff they are their OWN countries problem..not the french or german or our tax payers problem
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Sept 15, 2010 23:05:19 GMT
France hits back at criticism on Gypsy roundups
AP September 15, 2010– SYLVIE CORBET, Associated Press Writer
PARIS – President Nicolas Sarkozy's government fired back Wednesday at European Commission criticism of France's crackdown on Gypsies, or Roma, saying some of the complaints are unacceptable. A day earlier, EU Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding had called France's expulsions of Roma to Eastern Europe "a disgrace" — as well as something she "thought that Europe would not have to witness again after the second World War."
The exchange heightened tensions between France and the European Union a day before a summit of EU leaders Thursday in Brussels and forced the European Commission president to go into damage control, saying Reding had not meant to compare World War II and today. French authorities have recently dismantled more than 100 illegal camps and sent home more than 1,000 Roma, mainly back to Romania, in a crackdown that has drawn international condemnation. Sarkozy has called Roma camps sources of crime such as illegal trafficking and child exploitation.
France could ultimately be slapped with a fine by the European Court of Justice if its expulsions are found to have breached EU law. French Prime Minister Francois Fillon called Reding's comments "scandalous."
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Post by sadie1263 on Sept 16, 2010 11:18:06 GMT
but they are NOT being thrown into another country...they are being returned from whence they came ie country of origin i can only go by what MDL says....that those who are working and living just every day lives are NOT being deported..it is those who are making ilegal camps..and caught for criminality who are being sent back what is wrong with that...why should countries have to put up with crims and gangs..all very emotional stuff they are their OWN countries problem..not the french or german or our tax payers problem If they are being returned to the country from where they are from....and they have been been making camps in illegal areas and committing criminal acts then you can't blame any country for deporting them (or whatever you want to call it). That's how I feel about the flood of illegal aliens we have here in the states. If they work and pay taxes and become contributing members of society I don't have a problem with them......but if they want to come here and live off of food stamps (that we pay for) use the public hospitals (and not pay) and commit crimes.....well go back to where you came from......they are bankrupting our system.
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Post by Ben Lomond on Sept 16, 2010 15:34:23 GMT
In an ideal world there would be totally free and unlimited immigration. But in an ideal world all nations would have roughly the same high standard of living, and immigrants would be integrated without difficulty. In this ideal world there would be plenty of available housing, and plenty of work for all. Schooling and medical services would be freely available.
However, this ideal world does not exist; so we must make do with the inequalities and unfairness that we have. I doubt if there is anyone (right OR left) who would argue that a nation such as the UK, already overcrowded, should simply throw open the door to anyone who wants to come here, from wherever, and without limit as to numbers. So what we are really discussing is the limits which any free nation can place on on the numbers of would be immigrants, and the right of all nations to simply refuse entry to those who are criminal, or who are seeking a free ride on welfare. And this we do not have at the moment.
I have no objection to those who come here to work, providing the jobs are available. I do object, however, when some Somalian, or Albanian, or from anywhere family, arriving with a load of children, expects (and is given) free housing and access to welfare. I have no objection to the genuine refugee, fleeing persecution, being offered asylum, but I do object to the tens of thousands of economic migrants who pour into the UK every year, whether the jobs are available, or not. And I do object to the fact that once they get here, the likelihood of them being removed is almost nil. I object to the fact that we cannot deport those convicted of serious crimes because of some supposed infringement of their human rights.
In short, NO economic migrant should be allowed entry unless he or she has applied for, and been granted, a work visa from the British embassy in his own country. And these visas should only be granted where a job vacancy is known to be available, and the employer has agreed to offer said employment. We cannot go on as we are doing for much longer without the real probability of social unrest and inter racial tensions; especially as all western nations are actively cutting public spending, and such jobs as there are, are rapidly disappearing. To do so would be madness.
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Post by sadie1263 on Sept 16, 2010 22:40:20 GMT
Exactly Ben.....I stand in line at the store all the time and watch people in front of me pay for their food with food stamps (that we pay for) and then watch them load those groceries into Cadillacs. Ticks me off! Often they have several kids....because the more kids they have the more money they get from the gov't. They put their kids in school and apply for free food there because they don't work.......they don't pay for medical care.......because they don't work. Yet my medical costs are outrageous.....my taxes go up every year.......the hospitals are going broke because of all these people using them as free clinics. If they commit a crime (usually burglary or drug crimes).......they are deported.....a free visit back home.....and are usually back in just a few days. But our own government doesn't want the border states to pass laws to patrol or enforce stronger laws to crack down on illegals!!!!!
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Sept 16, 2010 23:55:17 GMT
Some years ago I read about a wealthy town not far north from San Francisco in California. This was a very attractive village with some tourist trade, upscale shops, and a lovely central park. The city council was very liberal as is typical of that region.
A problem developed when some homeless people came to town and started living in the central park, sleeping on the park benches, and hanging out during the day. They were also beggars who would harass tourists for money. The shop keepers and many of the citizens wanted the city council to do something about it.
Hmmmm. The council wanted to deal with the issue in a kind and humane way if possible. One of the members came up with an idea. There was a small federal government military training facility just out of town that closed down a few years ago and wasn't being used. Perhaps they could persuade the feds to let them use the facility to house the homeless people. This seemed like a great idea and they were able to pull it off.
The government facility was converted to a luxury homeless shelter. It was 'luxury' because each homeless person had his own bed, locker, 3 meals a day, and an easy job growing vegetables or helping in the kitchen. Problem solved. Or so they thought.
Over the coming months, the town became a destination for homeless people. The word spread. More and more homeless people arrived to take advantage of the liberal benefits. Instead of eliminating their homeless problem, they had stimulated it. The ultimate solution was to hand out one way bus tickets so the homeless people could return to their points of origin.
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Post by sadie1263 on Sept 17, 2010 0:26:15 GMT
Funny story........a friend of mine......saw a little white mouse in her apartment. She told the mouse it was cute and as long as she didn't find droppings every where it could stay. (like the mouse understood her, right?) Well.......guess what....didn't take too long before there were tons of them.....had to bring in an exterminator......they found over 50 of them.......She had to leave while they did the treatment...........they never found the cute little white one.
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Post by Big Lin on Sept 17, 2010 15:02:14 GMT
I could say a LOT on this thread (and people can probably guess exactly WHAT I'd say too.)
I'll start out by pointing out that Sarkozy is a man whose election to the Presidency in France I welcomed. I thought that a man with Roma blood in him would be sure to treat every kind of citizen equally. Obviously, I was wrong. I forgot that he is a politician first and every other aspect of his life is secondary to his ambitions.
Now I'll briefly talk about the porrajmos - the holocaust of the Roma people. A lot of us died, including my second cousin Jaime's parents, brother and sister who were murdered in Auschwitz.
Yes, it was mainly between 1942 and 1945 that the Rom were subjected to the full range of the Nazi extermination programme. Even as early as 1933, though, at the promptings of a deranged lunatic called Robert Ritter who was the official 'expert' on gypsies in the Nazi party, they were robbed of their civil rights, beaten, raped, made homeless and put into concentration camps.
Forcible deportation is never an attractive political option but when the 'crime' of the people involved is nothing MORE than their ethnic origins it becomes completely contemptible.
Comparing human beings with mice is totally inappropriate; comparing nomads and Roma with homeless people is equally out of order.
If a Rom commits a crime the law already has the power to punish them for that.
If the EU's rules on 'freedom of movement' mean ANYTHING then forcible deportation of ANY EU citizen is totally illegal.
Since it's also clear that the deportations are based purely on the ethnic origin of the people being sent back home, it's illegal, immoral and totally indefensible.
Just because Sarkozy isn't Hitler doesn't make what he's done RIGHT.
What a total piece of khul he is. What a loathsome mish!
(I've used two Romani expressions but I expect people can probably work out which two English words correspond to their meaning.)
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Post by sadie1263 on Sept 17, 2010 16:37:50 GMT
I wasn't trying to compare people to mice.......it was just something the first story reminded me of......I apologize if that was what was inferred. I did not think of it that way. I just thought my friend was such a twit for trying to make a deal with a mouse......can you even imagine? You would have to meet her........she's kinda that way all the time.
I would welcome knowing more about the Roma people....as I said before I really don't know anything about their situation or what would be a solution.
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Post by aubrey on Sept 17, 2010 17:03:12 GMT
I like Sarkosky's catch 22 - we're only ejecting criminals: therefore, anyone we eject is a criminal.
BA and Sadie: it is well known that people on benefits/foodstamps are all really well off; thanks, though, for pointing this out again.
You might not like to sneer at the homeless so much when you realise that anyone can become homeless, any time.
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Post by mouse on Sept 17, 2010 17:39:08 GMT
I could say a LOT on this thread (and people can probably guess exactly WHAT I'd say too.) I'll start out by pointing out that Sarkozy is a man whose election to the Presidency in France I welcomed.c I thought that a man with Roma blood in him would be sure to treat every kind of citizen equally. Forcible deportation is never an attractive political option but when the 'crime' of the people involved is nothing MORE than their ethnic origins it becomes completely contemptible. . If a Rom commits a crime the law already has the power to punish them for that. If the EU's rules on 'freedom of movement' mean ANYTHING then forcible deportation of ANY EU citizen is totally illegal. Since it's also clear that the deportations are based purely on the ethnic origin of the people being sent back home, it's illegal, immoral and totally indefensible. Just because Sarkozy isn't Hitler doesn't make what he's done RIGHT. ) "" I thought that a man with Roma blood in him would be sure to treat every kind of citizen equally. "" why would you think that LIN...the man is responsible to the french people not the roma or any one else.....and why should the french et al put up with criminals importing themselves into their countries just because the EU is pathetic..weak and useless it doesnt follow that elected politos can aford to be ..some thing westminster could do with reminding """Forcible deportation is never an attractive political option but when the 'crime' of the people involved is nothing MORE than their ethnic origins it becomes completely contemptible.""and when there is an ethnic group who have set up ilegal camps..ie broken the law..what do you want the authorities to do ??ignore it when people are constantly criminally behaved what do you want the authorities to do because imprisoning the men will simply leave the women and children to be kept by the french tax payer,..and lets face it they are being PAID money to leave france i can only repeat what mdl has said..that those who are working and not committing crime are left alone not deported not asked to leave...the french..germans..italians have a perfect right to say who should and who should not be in their country..just as we should say who has the right to be in our country..and we dont need people who make ilegal camps and we dont need crims...
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Post by mouse on Sept 17, 2010 17:48:53 GMT
I like Sarkosky's catch 22 - we're only ejecting criminals: therefore, anyone we eject is a criminal. well he is not ejecting those roma who DONT live in ilegal camps..who work and who are not criminal.....who live in the agrandisments and suburbs..... what has been targetted are the ilegal camps...and that is fair enough put the blame where it lies..on roumania,,bulgaria etc
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Post by aubrey on Sept 17, 2010 18:15:14 GMT
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Post by sadie1263 on Sept 17, 2010 18:25:59 GMT
I like Sarkosky's catch 22 - we're only ejecting criminals: therefore, anyone we eject is a criminal. BA and Sadie: it is well known that people on benefits/foodstamps are all really well off; thanks, though, for pointing this out again. You might not like to sneer at the homeless so much when you realise that anyone can become homeless, any time. I remember when I first moved out of my parents house paying rent and utilities and having $5.00 left for the next two weeks to eat with........used to have to always get a date or bum food from every one I knew. I didn't want to admit to my parents that I wasn't able to afford it. Used to also go to bar happy hours where they had snack foods........I could order one coke and eat a bunch of pretzels and with luck there would be other better stuff. I know that's not being homeless.......and I know I could have gone home.......but I just had too much pride. I just know what it is like to worry about when I am going to eat....and not wanting to admit it......and probably going to some extremes.....not stealing...well some of those bars probably weren't happy with me (and I did fill up a few napkins and stick them in my purse)...but I sure went out with some guys I would not have normally just for a meal........(nothing else though...ok).
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Post by Big Lin on Sept 17, 2010 18:59:35 GMT
"" I thought that a man with Roma blood in him would be sure to treat every kind of citizen equally. "" why would you think that LIN...the man is responsible to the french people not the roma or any one else.....and why should the french et al put up with criminals importing themselves into their countries just because the EU is pathetic..weak and useless it doesnt follow that elected politos can aford to be ..some thing westminster could do with reminding
Why would I think that a man whose people have personal experience of racial harassment, ethnic cleansing and murder purely on ethnic grounds would be LESS likely to deport people SOLELY on the basis of their ethnic origins?
Well, why would I?
Why would I imagine that ANY politician would do what's morally RIGHT rather than trying to pull some cheap vote-winning scan?
Why indeed?
Why should ANYONE prefer to choose humanity, tolerance and compassion rather than cruelty, intolerance, racism and indifference to the suffering of others?
Why indeed?
"""Forcible deportation is never an attractive political option but when the 'crime' of the people involved is nothing MORE than their ethnic origins it becomes completely contemptible.""and when there is an ethnic group who have set up ilegal camps..ie broken the law..what do you want the authorities to do ??ignore it
Bad laws are MEANT to be broken.
They are ONLY in ILLEGAL camps because they have NOT been provided with LEGAL ones.
It's the same as the excuse Himmler gave for putting people in concentration camps. 'Protective custody is an act of care; you must understand that there was hostility against the Jews and other peoples we took into custody.'
Yeah, right.
when people are constantly criminally behaved what do you want the authorities to do because imprisoning the men will simply leave the women and children to be kept by the french tax payer,..and lets face it they are being PAID money to leave france i can only repeat what mdl has said..that those who are working and not committing crime are left alone not deported not asked to leave...the french..germans..italians have a perfect right to say who should and who should not be in their country..just as we should say who has the right to be in our country..and we dont need people who make ilegal camps and we dont need crims...
The Roma are NOT 'constantly criminally behaved' and it's just an ethnic libel to say that we are.
If you believe that we should all obey the law then Sarkozy should be in prison himself because he has BROKEN a law which he himself has signed. (Two laws in fact; the human rights laws that forbid discrimination on ethnic grounds and the freedom of movement law of the EU)
It is simply a POLITICAL LIE put about by Sarkozy and his acolytes to say that 'those who are working and not committing crimes are left alone.'
You obviously believe the propaganda of politicians, Mouse.
How many Roma have you met? How many have you dealt with in their homes or while they travel about the country? How many have you employed or dealt with in the course of trade? How many of them have ever been friends of yours?
I am sick and tired of the LIE that Roma are MORE prone to crime than other sections of society.
If camps were legal then they WOULDN'T be illegal camps!
In the words of our movement, 'Opre Roma!' (Roma arise!)
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