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Post by sadie1263 on Sept 17, 2010 19:10:26 GMT
Hey Lin.....I'm Mexican.....according to everyone I'm supposed to have a low rider and about twenty kids.....not work......oh and a wet back......oh....I think I'm supposed to steal things too.....and carry a knife or a gun.....I forget......and fit about 30 people in one car.
Have an SUV (haven't tried to get more than 5 people in it).....hubby is a cop...have worked since I was 16....pay my taxes....only 3 kids.....and not a wet back (my dad had a boat...lol)....actually born in the States....my parents came here legally when they were 21......
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Post by mouse on Sept 17, 2010 19:21:00 GMT
[ Why would I think that a man whose people have personal experience of racial harassment, ethnic cleansing and murder purely on ethnic grounds would be LESS likely to deport people SOLELY on the basis of their ethnic origins? Well, why would I? Why would I imagine that ANY politician would do what's morally RIGHT rather than trying to pull some cheap vote-winning scan? Why indeed? Why should ANYONE prefer to choose humanity, tolerance and compassion rather than cruelty, intolerance, racism and indifference to the suffering of others? Why indeed? Bad laws are MEANT to be broken. They are ONLY in ILLEGAL camps because they have NOT been provided with LEGAL ones. It's the same as the excuse Himmler gave for putting people in concentration camps. 'Protective custody is an act of care; you must understand that there was hostility against the Jews and other peoples we took into custody.' Yeah, right. when people are constantly criminally behaved what do you want the authorities to do because imprisoning the men will simply leave the women and children to be kept by the french tax payer,..and lets face it they are being PAID money to leave france i can only repeat what mdl has said..that those who are working and not committing crime are left alone not deported not asked to leave...the french..germans..italians have a perfect right to say who should and who should not be in their country..just as we should say who has the right to be in our country..and we dont need people who make ilegal camps and we dont need crims...The Roma are NOT 'constantly criminally behaved' and it's just an ethnic libel to say that we are. If you believe that we should all obey the law then Sarkozy should be in prison himself because he has BROKEN a law which he himself has signed. (Two laws in fact; the human rights laws that forbid discrimination on ethnic grounds and the freedom of movement law of the EU) It is simply a POLITICAL LIE put about by Sarkozy and his acolytes to say that 'those who are working and not committing crimes are left alone.' You obviously believe the propaganda of politicians, Mouse. How many Roma have you met? How many have you dealt with in their homes or while they travel about the country? How many have you employed or dealt with in the course of trade? How many of them have ever been friends of yours? I am sick and tired of the LIE that Roma are MORE prone to crime than other sections of society. cIf camps were legal then they WOULDN'T be illegal camps! In the words of our movement, 'Opre Roma!' (Roma arise!) so in a nut shell you expect the leader of the french people[remeber that he is french and owes alliegence to france not one single ethnic group]you expect this man to provide for people who have come into france uninvited,,you expect the french tax payer to provide more housing etc etc etc ... err what bad laws would those be,,,is it bad law to stop people pitching up any where ?? regardless of any concerns for others or the land owners,,,,,,that is hardly bad law you know its not christmas and there is NO onus on anyone to provide camps for these people...the onus is on their governments to provide not the rest of europe ""You obviously believe the propaganda of politicians, Mouse.""no i believe my daughter in law in paris..who knows first hand what is going on there..and those who are not camping ilegally..those who are not crims and those who work are left alone to get on with life... i am not concerned with knowing or being friendly with roma nor have i said or sugest roma/gypsys are more prone to crime i have comented on the situation of ilegal camps..and the begging and behaviour i have seen in paris...that is all and what do you mean in the words of our movement...what movement ?? and as for this ""If camps were legal then they WOULDN'T be illegal camps!""" oh thats rich...the french tax payer should just roll over and provide and provide...why should they they didnt ask these people to come to france....if the camps were legal..yeah right and if those people hadnt gone to france there wouldnt be any camps to give a monkies about about
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Post by sadie1263 on Sept 17, 2010 20:23:09 GMT
You know......it's not too different than what many Mexicans face in Mexico. There is still very much a caste system there. In many areas....if your parents were servants to a family....you will pretty much be servants to their kids.....many don't have the chances to go to college...if they do they can't find any decent paying jobs.....now there is a drug war going on that is killing people left and right......The rich get richer there and the poor get poorer.........
They come to the states for a better chance at life. Many are willing to work very hard for that.....many aren't. Many come here legally.....many don't.
If your family is starving and you have no way to support them....what would you be willing to do to stop that? Would you go to another country, even if you didn't have the correct paperwork.......I would......in fact there probably isn't too much I wouldn't do to put food in my child's mouth.
It's all well and good to say this gov't or that gov't should do this or that.......there should be laws....there should be programs......while you wait for that to happen how do you eat and where do you live?
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Sept 17, 2010 23:31:47 GMT
Lin - I think it is OK to deport squatters who immigrate to your country, set up housekeeping in camps, have no visible means of support, and are found to be incubators for crime.
Sarkosky is correct to deal punitively with such behavior. It doesn't matter what the ethic background of these people are. That's not the point.
Show him any other camps where the same sort of behavior is prevalent and I think he would have the exact same response. Doesn't matter whether the camps are populated by gypsies, catholics, blacks, whites, jews, arabs, protestants, Russians, females, males, old people, young people, or Eskimos.
It's the behavior that's being punished and not the ethnicity. That's exactly as it should be.
Don't defend the entire Roma population. We all know that there are undesirable elements in that population. Defend the good citizens, like yourself, and distance yourself from the bad ones.
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Post by aubrey on Sept 18, 2010 9:44:12 GMT
France did ask people to come to France, by signing that European law allowing all Europeans free movement within Europe - not all europeans except for some people who we don't like. So, camps should be provided.
There was discrimination against the Roma by that govt directive asking for illegal camps to be broken up, especially those of the Roma.
And has the illegality of the Roma who are being deported been tested in a court?
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Post by riotgrrl on Sept 18, 2010 10:27:12 GMT
I'm slightly confused by this story as I believe we've got it wrong in this discussion.
As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong) two things are happening.
1 - Illegal squatter camps are being broken up. 2 - Roma inhabitants are being offered free return back to Romania/Bulgaria/wherever.
I don't think there are forcible deportations as such. Are there?
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Post by mouse on Sept 25, 2010 8:05:58 GMT
I'm slightly confused by this story as I believe we've got it wrong in this discussion. As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong) two things are happening. 1 - Illegal squatter camps are being broken up. 2 - Roma inhabitants are being offered free return back to Romania/Bulgaria/wherever. I don't think there are forcible deportations as such. Are there? nail on head..its ilegals that are being targetted as has been pointed out on the last two pages....a point consistently overlooked
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Post by aubrey on Sept 25, 2010 9:08:01 GMT
Especially Roma - the note to the police said "Illegal camps - especially Roma." So, prejudicial.
And, if there aren't enough legal camps (and the people on the broken-up camps are not given details of even those that there are), what are they supposed to do?
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Sept 26, 2010 1:48:16 GMT
Lin said:
"They are ONLY in ILLEGAL camps because they have NOT been provided with LEGAL ones."
Lin i'm sorry but I don't understand. Why should any government provide taxpayer supported camps for destitute immigrants?
Isn't that welfare gone awry?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2010 7:34:25 GMT
Britain has had decades of problems meeting its obligations to provide campsites for gypsies. But their number is growing far greater than can be counted for by reproduction and I have read that this is because of travellers arriving from elsewhere in Europe, mainly Ireland. That concerns me; I'm not sure how much is is of concern to indigenous travellers, but perhaps Lin can help on this.
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Post by aubrey on Sept 26, 2010 9:49:09 GMT
No. Of course not.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2010 11:31:03 GMT
I think I'm right in saying that Britain has no obligatin t prvide anything to "destitute immigrants" unless they qualify for being asylum seekers, refugees or by virtue of their work record. I am concerned that the situation for our own travellers - bad enough as it is - is being made worse by immigrants.
So I'm in the (somewhat unusual) postion of siding with Bush Admirer in saying that yes, it would seem to be "welfare gone awry"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2010 11:35:32 GMT
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Post by Big Lin on Sept 26, 2010 18:03:08 GMT
Look, gypsies have been around for nearly two thousand years. You can find references to them in the Byzantine Empire at about 400 AD.
Nomads of all types have always worried settled people.
I don't think anyone can point to a single post by me where I've claimed that all Roma are saints and none of them are criminals.
Of course there are bad people among us. There always have been and always will be, just as there are among ANY human group.
The question is, haven't we learned ANYTHING from the Nazi era? How can it POSSIBLY be right to deport people simply on the basis of their ethnic origins?
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Post by june on Sept 26, 2010 18:37:56 GMT
Look, gypsies have been around for nearly two thousand years. You can find references to them in the Byzantine Empire at about 400 AD. Nomads of all types have always worried settled people. I don't think anyone can point to a single post by me where I've claimed that all Roma are saints and none of them are criminals. Of course there are bad people among us. There always have been and always will be, just as there are among ANY human group. The question is, haven't we learned ANYTHING from the Nazi era? How can it POSSIBLY be right to deport people simply on the basis of their ethnic origins? I agree with Lin here - there is no difference between the people in the settled or travelling communities. Some are great, some are shits, such is life. But 'moving people on' because they refuse to live in an Wimpey estate semi does seem fascistic, a sort of 'conform or die' mentality. If the problem is really about the collection of taxes etc then sort the problem.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2010 5:40:00 GMT
Look, gypsies have been around for nearly two thousand years. You can find references to them in the Byzantine Empire at about 400 AD. Nomads of all types have always worried settled people. I don't think anyone can point to a single post by me where I've claimed that all Roma are saints and none of them are criminals. Of course there are bad people among us. There always have been and always will be, just as there are among ANY human group. The question is, haven't we learned ANYTHING from the Nazi era? How can it POSSIBLY be right to deport people simply on the basis of their ethnic origins? So are you saying that the travellers should be allowed to stay, no matter where they come from? The French are deporting the people in the camps back to their country of origin - largely Romania and Bulgaria it seems. Singling out the Roma for priority treatment would be discriminatory of course - though Sarkozy is now denying that was ever said. Anyone from an EU member state can travel within the EU for work - but they would be expected to find their own accommodation and I can't see that would include camping out on land where no-one else is allowed to camp. Legal sites (such as they are) are surely intended for travellers of French nationality?
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Post by mouse on Sept 27, 2010 7:42:11 GMT
own acomadation..work and obey the laws of the country they are in....not to hard for any one to understand is it and if people are ilegally camped....they are breaking the law just as much as committing other crimes.... cant see what all the hoo ha is about ilegal camping brings up all sorts of problems....apart from the obvious ilegality
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Post by mouse on Sept 27, 2010 7:44:45 GMT
a problem a little larger than not wanting to live on a wimpy estate.....
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2010 8:22:31 GMT
[quote author=mouse board=politics thread=1843 post=33210 time=1285573331 [/quote]ilegal camping brings up all sorts of problems....apart from the obvious ilegality[/quote]
It is one of particular significance round here. A playing field was occupied by travellers for a short time over a year ago. They didn't stay long, but their vehicles caused so much damage that it is now unusable, and the council has no money to restore it. I can't remember how much was required, but it was a phenomenal sum.
Gypsies may say that if there had been suitable sites elsewhere they wouldn't have had to be there. But of course they want to be near town centres, hence their decision to occupy one of the precious few open spaces in this old and high density town. Finding suitable sites for gypsies isn't easy in England.
The problems may not be so great in France, of course, but sites in the right places have to be paid for, either by those occupying them or by the state. France has no obligation to provide free sites for travellers from Bulgaria, and if they have no jobs, they won't be able to afford the site fees.
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Post by mouse on Sept 27, 2010 8:58:29 GMT
i can think of two i know of in france..where two fields on seperate ocasions were taken over by ilegal camping one was a field which had lain fallow and had been nurtured for the next years crop to be sown...the amounts of fires,,faeces and general damage to the field was such it was unusable causing the owner to lose quite an amount and another with a stream running through which was left filthy and with rusting metals plastics etc etc ..two cows choked to death on plastics and one beast got a nail through its hoof...which inspite of treatment went septic and the cow had to be destroyed so you have vets bill..the bill for the removal of carceses and of removing the junk and of course the stream was unusable by the farm animals for a while creating un-necessary work why there is suport for those creating so much damage and cost to both councils[us] and individuals beats me..especiallt when those creating the damage then just move on in many cases and create more damage to some one elses land i notice the woman from luxenbourg who had so much to say on this hasnt invited these ilegals to luxenburg.....and those others who think this is not a problem i sugest they open up their homes and gardens if they feel so strongly..... its always the same..as long as its in some one elses back yard and some one else is footing the bill
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