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Post by Big Lin on Sept 27, 2010 17:10:40 GMT
All that's needed for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2010 17:15:30 GMT
Please tell me thugh Lin, what a country is supposed to do with travellers from another country who camp illegally. when there are not enough campsites for their own gypsies?
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Post by june on Sept 27, 2010 17:34:28 GMT
Please tell me thugh Lin, what a country is supposed to do with travellers from another country who camp illegally. when there are not enough campsites for their own gypsies? Create more campsites? If demand outstrips supply isn't that what you do?
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Post by june on Sept 27, 2010 17:36:23 GMT
a problem a little larger than not wanting to live on a wimpy estate..... I didn't say that was the problem. But perhaps you could educate us as to what the 'real' issue is.
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Post by riotgrrl on Sept 27, 2010 17:37:26 GMT
I'm so torn on this subject.
I absolutely agree that we can't have people just setting up illegal campsites anywhere they want to.
But the history of the Roma in Europe is a history of oppression and marginalisation. To this day, Roma in places like Slovakia are treated disgracefully, considered 2nd class citizens.
I would like to see Europe-wide action to face up to the Roma issue, based on the starting point that this ethnic group have been discriminated against for centuries.
But the Roma also have to accept that they cannot just set up camp wherever they want. They have to accept that they have to use official sites, much as it goes against the grain for them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2010 20:44:47 GMT
There seem to be suggestions that France is making it very difficult for these travellers to get work permits. I thought work permits weren't necessary for EU members in any EU state but perhaps I'm missing something? But still I tend to think that it is not France's responsibility to look after everyone who comes - any more than we would have a responsibility to build more houses and provide them free to any EU citizens who arrive and can't find work.
But if Romania and Bulgaria - where a lot of the travellers ogininated - are treating some of their citizens so badly that they have to travel to France, is there nothing the EU can do?
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Post by riotgrrl on Sept 27, 2010 20:54:54 GMT
Skylark, I think (could be wrong) that Bulgarian citizens don't yet have the full right to free movement round the EU and that France has yet to open up wholly to Bulgaria.
I would check if i could be bothered . . .
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Post by Big Lin on Sept 27, 2010 21:14:02 GMT
When the 'new countries' joined the EU Britain had by far the most naive approach and basically allowed us to get flooded with Poles.
With the Bulgarians and Romanians I think we've been a bit more cautious.
I'm NOT a supporter of uncontrolled immigration; I just don't agree with targetting particular ethnic groups.
To be honest we're so overcrowded in Britain that I wish we could call a halt to the whole process for a few years to give us some breathing space.
Even so, I'll NEVER support ANY policy that's aimed at a particular ethnic group.
I feel just as strongly about the way the Basques are discriminated against in Spain, the Bretons in France, and so on.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Sept 27, 2010 23:46:22 GMT
The obvious answer is to deport the bad/evil immigrants and keep the good ones.
If Muslims are adapting to French society and blending in then by all means embrace them. If they're agitating and publicly demonstrating for Sharia Law or supporting Jihadists then deport them. Ditto for Roma or any other groups. If they appear to be a positive factor for society then applaud their presence.
Some of the Gypsies do need to be deported but it should be on a selective basis. I remember visiting Nice France some years ago. When we entered a large public square were were suddenly surrounded by children averaging about ten years old. They were begging for money and touching us. There were about 7 or 8 of them. We tried to get away from them but they were assertive. I thought they were pick pockets so I put my hand on my wallet and told my wife to guard her purse. A local French lady was kind enough to sternly lecture them in French and they departed. These kids were clearly criminals with parents or someone else training them and controlling them. They should have been deported (or worse).
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Post by mouse on Sept 28, 2010 6:23:30 GMT
Please tell me thugh Lin, what a country is supposed to do with travellers from another country who camp illegally. when there are not enough campsites for their own gypsies? Create more campsites? If demand outstrips supply isn't that what you do? not as easy as it sounds..the councils do not necessarily own suitible land..plus the expence of hard stands..water and lecky etc
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Post by mouse on Sept 28, 2010 6:30:29 GMT
a problem a little larger than not wanting to live on a wimpy estate..... I didn't say that was the problem. But perhaps you could educate us as to what the 'real' issue is. read riots answer no 44 .....she has it covered more or less
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2010 6:51:08 GMT
The obvious answer is to deport the bad/evil immigrants and keep the good ones. If Muslims are adapting to French society and blending in then by all means embrace them. If they're agitating and publicly demonstrating for Sharia Law or supporting Jihadists then deport them. Ditto for Roma or any other groups. If they appear to be a positive factor for society then applaud their presence. Some of the Gypsies do need to be deported but it should be on a selective basis. I remember visiting Nice France some years ago. When we entered a large public square were were suddenly surrounded by children averaging about ten years old. They were begging for money and touching us. There were about 7 or 8 of them. We tried to get away from them but they were assertive. I thought they were pick pockets so I put my hand on my wallet and told my wife to guard her purse. A local French lady was kind enough to sternly lecture them in French and they departed. These kids were clearly criminals with parents or someone else training them and controlling them. They should have been deported (or worse). The children who pestered you may not have been immigrants at all. (I assume that you know for a fact that they were travellers?) France has its own population of travellers, and I don't think this law is aimed at them - though apparently some of the ones being "offered" repatriation have been in the country for many years. France is now denying that Roma people were ever singled out; an error in translation, perhaps? If the Roma people form the largest group of immigrants forming illegal camps, then it is easy to see how a remark intended to indicate this could be construed as racism.
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Post by alanseago on Sept 28, 2010 13:07:06 GMT
When the 'new countries' joined the EU Britain had by far the most naive approach and basically allowed us to get flooded with Poles. With the Bulgarians and Romanians I think we've been a bit more cautious. I'm NOT a supporter of uncontrolled immigration; I just don't agree with targetting particular ethnic groups. To be honest we're so overcrowded in Britain that I wish we could call a halt to the whole process for a few years to give us some breathing space. Even so, I'll NEVER support ANY policy that's aimed at a particular ethnic group. I feel just as strongly about the way the Basques are discriminated against in Spain, the Bretons in France, and so on. In fact, only Shengen countries have open frontiers. Britain did not sign the Shengen agreement. The Poles entered on work visas.
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Post by june on Sept 28, 2010 18:29:28 GMT
Create more campsites? If demand outstrips supply isn't that what you do? not as easy as it sounds..the councils do not necessarily own suitible land..plus the expence of hard stands..water and lecky etc It's a damn sight more difficult if you don't even try!
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Post by mouse on Sept 29, 2010 7:50:46 GMT
further to this story..from sky news
Roma Migrants Heading For Western Europe Share63 Share Comments (291)12:39pm UK, Tuesday September 28, 2010
Alex Rossi, Europe correspondent, in Romania
Thousands of Roma Gypsies deported from France will head for Britain, Germany or Spain, according to members of their community.
Roma who spoke to Sky News said they had no choice but to emigrate as they faced a life of poverty and discrimination at home in Romania.
In the village of Fantanele, just north of Bucharest, it is easy to see why they are leaving.
Most of the houses have no running water and many have no electricity.
But on the streets, cars with foreign number plates serve as a reminder of what many perceive to be a better and easier way of life on offer in Western Europe.
Iiordan Marian is among thousands who have just been expelled from France.
He said police had forced him onto a plane and smashed his camp.
In France, Sarkozy's move has popular support; They did though give him 300 Euros compensation, which he spent on car air fresheners.
cHe says he will sell them on the streets of London, because he believes his desired destination of Britain has a generous benefits system and respects human rights
He said: "We need money, we need food. We can live in Romania but we have no job and in this village each family has about 10 kids."
"We are members of the European Union and we have rights."
The Roma Gypsies are becoming a growing social problem for the European Union.
There are an estimated 12 million Roma in Europe and their number is rapidly increasing.
An anti-Roma march in Bulgaria, where some of the migrants have been deported
In Hungary, it has been suggested Roma could make up 40% of the workforce by 2040.
Some feel that could spell disaster for the country's economic future, with the badly-educated Roma existing on the margins of society.
The EU and its individual states are now under pressure to provide more financial assistance and better education programmes.
But it is clear that President Sarkozy's policy of rounding up and deporting members of the Roma community will not provide a permanent solution for the continent.
As EU citizens, the Roma have the right to freedom of movement.
We are members of the European Union and we have rights ... we need money.
Iiordan Marian, member of the Roma community And as the deserted streets of the southern Romanian commune Cojasca suggest, it is an entitlement they are continuing to make use of.
Sky News was told 90% of the Roma who have been deported from France have now left the village for Britain, Germany or Spain, in the belief those countries represent a softer option.
Marian though is going back to France, with him and his five children already having packed their bags.
"There's nothing here," he said.
"I can go to France and win my bread easily. In four months I can make enough money to feed my family for one year."
There is no doubt the Roma are outcasts and most face social exclusion as a way of life.
View Cojasca, Romania in a larger map
European expansion to the East has created strategic and economic benefits for the EU.
But the Roma believe helping them out of poverty should be part of the price.
:: A court in Romania has been told that a gang of child-traffickers stole 181 children and forced them to beg, pickpocket and shoplift on Britain's streets.
With the children likened to Fagin's urchins in Charles Dickens' novel Oliver Twist, 26 Romanians face charges ranging from child smuggling to money laundering and firearms offences.
It is even claimed some of the children were deliberately disfigured to increase earning potential - with all cash going straight into the pockets of the gang.
The children - the youngest just a few months old - have been taken into care.
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Post by mouse on Sept 29, 2010 8:12:08 GMT
"""He says he will sell them on the streets of London, because he believes his desired destination of Britain has a generous benefits system and respects human rights"""
ah the generous benfits system...and selling on the streets...mmm wont be paying tax then to help to pay for the """generous benefits""""
the court case going on in roumania at the moment is quite interesting...some of the children have been reunited with their parents
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Post by aubrey on Sept 29, 2010 8:55:26 GMT
They only beleive Britain has a generous benefits system because of papers like the Daily Mail who say that it pays too much. When they get here and find out how much it really is, they're going to be really disappointed.
Who claims that the children have been disfigured? If someone's saying something like that, they ought to be named. Just saying "It is claimed" doesn't mean anythiong. People claim all sorts of things - a lot of people claim that they've had aliens in flying saucers stick things up their bottom. Who is to say that this claim isn't the same?
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Post by mouse on Sept 29, 2010 9:46:17 GMT
take it up with sky news if you dont like what is reported..but the telegraph had the same story yesterday about the stolen children and refferences to disfigurement...its a big case and it would seem a long overdue case..the uk police told the roumanians about this gang ages ago...but roumania works exceeding slow it would seem..or maybe they were just reluctent any way the case is ongoing and of course the benfits system in the uk is generous...free housing etc etc a case only last week came to light of a non working family with 6 children clearing 17.000 a yr plus free housing,,no council tax etc etc ..they were i interviewed on the jeremy kyle show[you can check if you so desire]....that is not a bad freebie by anyones standard
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Post by mouse on Sept 29, 2010 10:01:20 GMT
Who claims that the children have been disfigured? If someone's saying something like that, they ought to be named. the prosecution...oddly enough...
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Post by aubrey on Sept 29, 2010 11:12:01 GMT
take it up with sky news if you dont like what is reported..but the telegraph had the same story yesterday about the stolen children and refferences to disfigurement...its a big case and it would seem a long overdue case..the uk police told the roumanians about this gang ages ago...but roumania works exceeding slow it would seem..or maybe they were just reluctent any way the case is ongoing and of course the benfits system in the uk is generous...free housing etc etc a case only last week came to light of a non working family with 6 children clearing 17.000 a yr plus free housing,,no council tax etc etc ..they were i interviewed on the jeremy kyle show[you can check if you so desire]....that is not a bad freebie by anyones standard A case. there are very few. I get about £150 a week, including rent and council tax. (Most of that family's income would have been rent). Most people don't get much at all. Basic Unemployment benefit is £64. Asylum seekers don't even get that. Failed asylum seekers who are appealing (as they are entitled to do) get nothing at all. Why don't the Mail and Kyle and other dickheads like that publicise this sort of thing a bit more? If they reported the Lottery the same way, you'd imagine that everyone wins the jackpot every week. This is the thing. The Mail, and bozos like J Kyle will give cases like this a lot of publicity, and people seeing them will think that all people on benefits get that much. I'm not really sure what the point of them doing it is.
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