|
Post by june on Jul 22, 2010 22:18:45 GMT
Bully for you - however that still doesn't detract from the fact that you have just fibby fib fibbed about things you want me to have said that I haven't! of course, i haven't fibbed yet. you HAVE said everything that i pointed out, either explicitly or implicitly Show me
|
|
|
Post by iamjumbo on Jul 22, 2010 23:39:15 GMT
for anyone interested in the truth, absolute reality, from their own mouths thethirdjihad.com/
|
|
|
Post by iamjumbo on Jul 23, 2010 0:02:02 GMT
of course, i haven't fibbed yet. you HAVE said everything that i pointed out, either explicitly or implicitly Show me your reply #61, for starters: It's not for me to prove anything about Islam either way. I make no comment on it. You continue to portray the religion as evil, so the requirement for proof that it is is all at your door, not mine. You are the one saying; you have something to prove about Islam - not me. I am prejudice against anyone who says "this is bad because I say so", because I'm not willing to blindly follow anyone else's point of view based on nothing more than the fact it is their point of view. It occurs to me that what you pretend to hate most about Islam, you expect to receive here - ie. blind and total adherence to what you say. the FACT is that you have been given conclusive proof, hell, fret even gave you several verses from the book muslims adhere to, yet, you choose to be blind and follow in lock steps with the nutjobs who are welcoming these fools to overrun your country, and continent
|
|
|
Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jul 23, 2010 0:11:48 GMT
June
I do think Jumbo has Islam in clear focus.
Here in the west, we have two kinds of people:
1/ Those who view Islam based on the facts (what they say, what they do, etc. Actions always speak louder than words), and
2/ Those who imagine Islam to be just another religion like Methodist, Jewish, Hindu, or Catholic. These people visualize Islam the way they would like it to be rather than how it actually is.
To confuse the issue, there are a range of Muslims from truly devout to casual. In this case, it is like other religion in that there are people (here in western countries) who give lip service but don't go to the Mosque, don't wear head scarves, don't pray 5 times a day, don't eat Helah food, don't try to memorize the Quran, etc. They'll tell you that they are Muslims but that's a stretch. Please don't use them as an argument in support of Islam. They don't really count.
Real Muslims, who are religious (pray 5 times a day, etc.) are the ones we should be discussing here. They're the ones Jumbo is describing.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 23, 2010 4:58:56 GMT
Dearest Jim! There are of course moderate Muslims, who don't qualify as "fundamentalists". They believe that Muhammed's wife Aisha was an adult and that the Muslim writings claiming she was a child are wrong or it was copied wrongly.
The extremists like Bin Laden, who want to murder Westerners, are very rare and denounced by even the strictest Muslims! which muslim, particularly a leader, ever stood and totally publicly repudiated the garbage that was rioting about the danish cartoons? which muslim, particularly a leader, ever publicly stated that salmon rushdie was a brilliant man, and totally accurate in his writings? which muslim, particularly a leader, has publicly condemned the existence of hamas and hezbollah. which muslim leader has publicly announced that women are totally equal to men? when you can produce one, then, and only then, can you claim that there is such a thing as a "moderate" muslim. of course, the fact is that he wouldn't be muslim at all since he would be violating the primary tenets of his quoran only the very stupid would try to claim that aisha was a woman. not only are they calling the pedophile a liar, it is a matter of historical record that she was nine, so the attempt at revisionist history simply reminds us of those who like to try to revise the history of world war two Some Muslims like the one who posted this video link ( ) don't accept the Hadith, which claims Aisha was 9.
True in countries like Yemen and Saudi Arabia this stupid Hadith is used to justify child marriages!
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Jul 23, 2010 8:20:34 GMT
June I do think Jumbo has Islam in clear focus. Here in the west, we have two kinds of people: 1/ Those who view Islam based on the facts (what they say, what they do, etc. Actions always speak louder than words), and 2/ Those who imagine Islam to be just another religion like Methodist, Jewish, Hindu, or Catholic. These people visualize Islam the way they would like it to be rather than how it actually is. To confuse the issue, there are a range of Muslims from truly devout to casual. In this case, it is like other religion in that there are people (here in western countries) who give lip service but don't go to the Mosque, don't wear head scarves, don't pray 5 times a day, don't eat Helah food, don't try to memorize the Quran, etc. They'll tell you that they are Muslims but that's a stretch. Please don't use them as an argument in support of Islam. They don't really count. Real Muslims, who are religious (pray 5 times a day, etc.) are the ones we should be discussing here. They're the ones Jumbo is describing. absolutly correct bush..the other issue which is often left out is that islam is not simply a religion...and to people used to a religion being ...""just a religion"" ....it bcomes hard for them to get their heads round this wider all in concept islam is also political social law financial... a whole way of life..from birth to death..every thing is writen down..the way to sleep..the way to eat..the way to dress..even the way to wipe ones ass and what names to call ones children as bush says there are those who give lip service..and they are the ones who if leaving islam were easy would have left it long ago just as christians have ..but they dont leave because they may be killed..would lose their families..would be isolated and alone there is also the injunction to lie to non believers....a practice well used in the past and i have no doubt used today the injuction not to be critical of islam or muslims also plays a part in stopping advancement and modernisation... all these things go together in making a bad situation worse and certainly muddy the waters....just try to remeber islam has itys own language..flag..financial and law systems....not just a religion by any manner of means islam and western thinking make it very easy for the naive..unknowing and tollorant to see islam as simply another religion..to make excuses.... but i would make a point that while indeed it is"" not all of them"" it doesnt have to be...it wasnt ALL germans..but look at ww1 and 2 also that when push comes to shove muslims would back islam in any confrontation...just as americans would suport america ... islam was founded on deliberate war/murder etc etc its aims and ambitions clearly stated...its texts quite clear...its banner headline is dar al harb versus dar al islam and while there are good men and women who happen to be muslims...remember they are muslims first and formost..and their first loyalty is to allah and his prophet and the instruction given to that prophet and we would do well to listen to those who have been muslims...they are well aware of what is said and thought behind closed doors... they have tried to warn us..they are not ranters..nor in most cases to they hate....they present facts..reasons and we should at least listen rather than be dismissing them out of hand and putting a false western take of tollorance..inclusivity on the issue i can only repeat there are good people..in islam...it goes without saying but it is many of those good people who are preventing other good people from unpdating and reforming...and islam needs reform badly .. you cannot teach children to hate and expect rational and logic...because the hate goes on and on from one geration to the next and not all have the nouse to shift the chaff from the good
|
|
|
Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jul 23, 2010 13:17:13 GMT
Mouse said, ".the other issue which is often left out is that islam is not simply a religion...and to people used to a religion being ...""just a religion"" ....it bcomes hard for them to get their heads round this wider all in concept islam is also political social law financial... a whole way of life..from birth to death..every thing is writen down..the way to sleep..the way to eat..the way to dress..even the way to wipe ones ass and what names to call ones children" ___ That's a very crucial point Mouse.
Here is the USA we have separation of church and state as a cornerstone principle along with Freedom of Speech. Islamic countries have neither. They hate the whole idea of Democracy because it's clear to them that what the Mullahs say should take priority over what the people say. As Exhibit A, I give you Iran.
|
|
|
Post by june on Jul 23, 2010 14:03:39 GMT
Thanks for making my point for me. I have said none of the things you accuse me of. You chose to interpret my words to meet your agenda. Life must be one confused episode after another for you if, in real life you are so determined to reinvent what people say and mean to suit your own ends! ;D your reply #61, for starters: It's not for me to prove anything about Islam either way. I make no comment on it. You continue to portray the religion as evil, so the requirement for proof that it is is all at your door, not mine. You are the one saying; you have something to prove about Islam - not me. I am prejudice against anyone who says "this is bad because I say so", because I'm not willing to blindly follow anyone else's point of view based on nothing more than the fact it is their point of view. It occurs to me that what you pretend to hate most about Islam, you expect to receive here - ie. blind and total adherence to what you say. the FACT is that you have been given conclusive proof, hell, fret even gave you several verses from the book muslims adhere to, yet, you choose to be blind and follow in lock steps with the nutjobs who are welcoming these fools to overrun your country, and continent
|
|
|
Post by june on Jul 23, 2010 14:21:40 GMT
That's such a simplified view of the world, Islamic or non. You Islam haters seem incapable of separating culture and religion and desperately want the non Muslim world to believe that all Muslims are evil. We won't, because as you admit they are not. You arguments are not convincing, . June I do think Jumbo has Islam in clear focus. Here in the west, we have two kinds of people: 1/ Those who view Islam based on the facts (what they say, what they do, etc. Actions always speak louder than words), and 2/ Those who imagine Islam to be just another religion like Methodist, Jewish, Hindu, or Catholic. These people visualize Islam the way they would like it to be rather than how it actually is. To confuse the issue, there are a range of Muslims from truly devout to casual. In this case, it is like other religion in that there are people (here in western countries) who give lip service but don't go to the Mosque, don't wear head scarves, don't pray 5 times a day, don't eat Helah food, don't try to memorize the Quran, etc. They'll tell you that they are Muslims but that's a stretch. Please don't use them as an argument in support of Islam. They don't really count. Real Muslims, who are religious (pray 5 times a day, etc.) are the ones we should be discussing here. They're the ones Jumbo is describing.
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Jul 23, 2010 15:08:35 GMT
That's such a simplified view of the world, Islamic or non. You Islam haters seem incapable of separating culture and religion and desperately want the non Muslim world to believe that all Muslims are evil. We won't, because as you admit they are not. You arguments are not convincing, .
|
|
|
Post by Big Lin on Jul 23, 2010 15:32:29 GMT
Right, this is my final warning.
I will NOT tolerate ANY posts that suggest that Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or any OTHER type of religion is 'inherently evil.'
Arguing about terrorism, religious fundamentalism, human rights violations (especially when it comes to the treatment of women) is fine.
Slagging off and dissing millions of people's religious beliefs as a whole is NOT.
If people don't STOP doing this I shall be forced to move this thread to Vendetta.
I'm all for freedom of speech but NOT when it becomes an excuse for bigotry and prejudice!
|
|
|
Post by Big Lin on Jul 23, 2010 15:36:49 GMT
Mouse said, ".the other issue which is often left out is that islam is not simply a religion...and to people used to a religion being ...""just a religion"" ....it bcomes hard for them to get their heads round this wider all in concept islam is also political social law financial... a whole way of life..from birth to death..every thing is writen down..the way to sleep..the way to eat..the way to dress..even the way to wipe ones ass and what names to call ones children" ___ That's a very crucial point Mouse. Here is the USA we have separation of church and state as a cornerstone principle along with Freedom of Speech. Islamic countries have neither. They hate the whole idea of Democracy because it's clear to them that what the Mullahs say should take priority over what the people say. As Exhibit A, I give you Iran. As Exhibit B I give you the religious right in America who assert: a) That America IS a Christian country b) That it SHOULD be governed on Christian principles and any laws or anything else that conflicts with them should be repealed or made illegal c) That ALL non-Christians are inherently evil and damned Don't accuse me of making this up either. Apart from the fact that I've met a few of these people (especially in Texas) I belong to a fundamentalist Christian message board where I'm not only one of the few non-Americans but also one of the few who advocates the message of Christ in a NON-totalitarian way. I've been accused by some of the wackier guys on that forum of being a conscious servant of Satan as a result. And these guys want to elect the next Republican President!
|
|
|
Post by june on Jul 23, 2010 16:38:09 GMT
That's such a simplified view of the world, Islamic or non. You Islam haters seem incapable of separating culture and religion and desperately want the non Muslim world to believe that all Muslims are evil. We won't, because as you admit they are not. You arguments are not convincing, . Mouse, I refuse to be anymore masochistic than I have been so I won't repeat what I have already posted. Of course my arguments are non existent - I'm not making an argument for Islam I'm just disputing the hysterical screeching about all Muslims being extremist paedophiles, such mindless paranoia cannot go unchecked. However, I'm bored of being told what I think by people who have no idea and seem to be suffering from some sort of mental hysteria. Quite frankly reading the anti Islam posts on here is about as interesting as reading Freedom for Fighters on feminism - but without the laughs. Carry on looking for the Muslim under your bed, it matters nought to me. PS The Muslim is probably behind the Red that's been under your bed since 1945.
|
|
|
Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jul 24, 2010 2:11:26 GMT
Lin - Christian fundamentalists don't really hold much sway here. I live in Texas which is in the south. The south is supposedly their home base. I can't say that I personally know anyone who is one of these Christian fundamentalist extremists. They're a mostly invisible minority except on TV. They do work hard as political precinct organizers which gives them a lot more clout than they deserve come election time.
I certainly don't believe all Muslims are evil. However, I must say that I do believe Muslim regimes like Iran are and the Taliban (when they controlled Afghanistan) definitely are evil.
I'm also not happy to see countries like Turkey being taken over by fundamentalist Muslims. While I don't think all Muslims are evil, I do believe all Jihadists are evil so are Muslims who support Jihad. Do you disagree?
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 24, 2010 5:22:24 GMT
I certainly don't believe all Muslims are evil. However, I must say that I do believe Muslim regimes like Iran are and the Taliban (when they controlled Afghanistan) definitely are evil. I'm also not happy to see countries like Turkey being taken over by fundamentalist Muslims. While I don't think all Muslims are evil, I do believe all Jihadists are evil so are Muslims who support Jihad. Do you disagree? No one denies that the 911 terrorists were evil and those who support and applaud them are guilty of evil.
Would you say that everyone, who served in Franco's dictatorship in Spain, the Hitler or Stalin regimes were all evil?
I do agree that immigration from these Muslim and other countries to Western Europe and the US must be reduced to those who are truly being persecuted for embracing Western ways or some truly pacifistic ideology!
It's obvious that the criminal element in Muslim countries tries to immigrate to Europe and the US where criminals have less to fear. They always sneak in with the immigrants who just want to profit economically and sometimes they claim they've been persecuted!. As a rule Muslims behave better here than the economic opportunists from these lands. Germany did deport some goofy Khalif, who wanted to make the city of Cologne into a Muslim state, but most of the crime and problems come from the consumption orientated amoral immigrants.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 24, 2010 6:29:20 GMT
Anna - I do wonder whether the moderate Muslims you mention present the same face to westerners as they present to extremists. In other words, if you were to ask them what they think of 9/11 you might get one answer. But a fervent Jihadist member of their extended family might get a different answer. Deceit seems to be condemned in Islam!
I suppose we can speculate that some Italians/Sicilians present the mafia, camorra, cosa nostra, etc. differently to outsiders too.
Some Christians condemn the crusades, others glorify them and others call themselves crusaders, but the meaning is completely different from the historical context!
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Jul 24, 2010 9:51:35 GMT
"""I'm not making an argument for Islam I'm just disputing the hysterical screeching about all Muslims being extremist paedophiles,"""i dont think i HAVE ever sugested that ALL muslims were extreemist peados..... and muslims under the bed!!!! WEIRD.. as is the remark reds under the bed..... however....the fact that most politos will aknowledge that there are grave problems....world wide... due to islamic activity is to be ignored as are the social consequences.....the facts of poverty/law/womens rights etc etc are all to be ignored..the koran.hadiths etc are all the be discounted..history is to be discounted...in fact EVERY thing is to be discounted.. the fact that islamic teachings are aknowledged to be the root cause is of no acount...so be it..... and the fact that what has been brought up in this thread is all factually based is also of no acount and even more confussingly you then make an allegation and refuse to or perhaps cannot back it .""""you Islam haters seem incapable of separating culture and religion""""
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Jul 24, 2010 10:07:59 GMT
Right, this is my final warning. I will NOT tolerate ANY posts that suggest that Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or any OTHER type of religion is 'inherently evil.' Arguing about terrorism, religious fundamentalism, human rights violations (especially when it comes to the treatment of women) is fine. Slagging off and dissing millions of people's religious beliefs as a whole is NOT. If people don't STOP doing this I shall be forced to move this thread to Vendetta. I'm all for freedom of speech but NOT when it becomes an excuse for bigotry and prejudice! well there would be difficulties in discussing """"Arguing about terrorism, religious fundamentalism, human rights violations (especially when it comes to the treatment of women) is fine."""any of the above without adding the justification that a certain religion allows..if of course it were them in volved and not some other group slagging off a religion for slagging off sake i agree is noton...but bringing forth evidence is hardly slagging off nor is quoting ex members of that religion...nor is pointing out that the religion is not simply a religion a beliefe in god as i said earlier in the week is one thing...the add ons are some thing entire different....god is god..fair enough....but to expect that to cover all the things brought up that surround that beliefe is ilogical and unaceptable....to not look at the very beings and where that beliefe stems from is also ilogical.....its ilogical to think one can discuss one without the others
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Jul 24, 2010 10:34:19 GMT
Right, this is my final warning. I will NOT tolerate ANY posts that suggest that Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or any OTHER type of religion is 'inherently evil.' Arguing about terrorism, religious fundamentalism, human rights violations (especially when it comes to the treatment of women) is fine. Slagging off and dissing millions of people's religious beliefs as a whole is NOT. If people don't STOP doing this I shall be forced to move this thread to Vendetta. I'm all for freedom of speech but NOT when it becomes an excuse for bigotry and prejudice! Your warning is noted. Now answer the question if you'd be so kind... I'd really like to know.
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Jul 24, 2010 14:16:37 GMT
Right, this is my final warning. I will NOT tolerate ANY posts that suggest that Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or any OTHER type of religion is 'inherently evil.' I'm all for freedom of speech but NOT when it becomes an excuse for bigotry and prejudice! where do you stand of the godess kali and thugeeism..it is permissable then ?? human scrifice...not in herently evil perhaps no Lin you are not for freedom of speech..for the freedom to speak has NO BOUNDRIES..either you belive in free speech or you dont you say YOU wont tollorate....so its not about freedom but about what YOU will tollorate.....
|
|