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Post by mouse on Jul 24, 2010 14:36:30 GMT
[/size] [/quote] I'd really like to know. [/quote]wouldnt we all.....
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jul 24, 2010 16:35:09 GMT
Continuing the discussion with Anna re whether the moderate Muslims you mention present the same face to westerners as they present to extremists...........
Sometimes I think it's hard to tell just how much support there really is for a regime or a movement like Jihad.
Hitler appeared to have great support from the German people during WWII (especially the early years when the Nazis were winning). However, I don't think public disapproval of the Nazi's would have been good for your health in those years. There may have been a big difference between the level of support evidenced in public vs. privately held views.
I suspect the average Muslim will soften his views toward the western countries and infidels when discussing world events (with westerners like us).
To find out where they really stand all you need to do is bring up the topic of Israel. Emotions will drive their real opinions to the surface.
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Post by mouse on Jul 24, 2010 18:25:33 GMT
RANDOM VOICE POSTED THIS on another thread.[meghri/lybia]..i sidnt think it apropriate to carry the discussion on that thread however i do object quiote strongly to being acused of being a LIAR of.... making things up thus i ask him to point out what i have posted which is untrue....because i never knowingly post that which is untrue any way here is a public objection to BEING CALLED A LIAR and of MAKING UP FACTS
""" I look forward to an interesting debate that does not come to the same conclusion that I do, but making things up in order to fit them into ‘facts that would be helpful to their cause does not count. People are entitled to their own opinions; they are not, however, entitled to there own facts."""
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Post by mouse on Jul 24, 2010 18:36:52 GMT
Hitler appeared to have great support from the German people during WWII (especially the early years when the Nazis were winning). However, I don't think public disapproval of the Nazi's would have been good for your health in those years. There may have been a big difference between the level of support evidenced in public vs. privately held views. I suspect the average Muslim will soften his views toward the western countries and infidels when discussing world events (with westerners like us). To find out where they really stand all you need to do is bring up the topic of Israel. Emotions will drive their real opinions to the surface. when the germans were winning there was massive suport for hitler and the national socialists..one can see it in the crowds,,in faces..in the cheers its usually quite easy to see ""captive crowds""look at the nurenburg rallies..look at the crowds where ever he went and compare to the crowds who were made to line the roads in paris.. we had a prime example of the pubic and private face made very clear during the under cover filming of mosques for channel four...nothing could have been clearer in that and a couple of subsequent programs...and guess what..the police went after the makers of the programs and not those who suported the words inside those mosques.....
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Post by mouse on Jul 24, 2010 19:24:34 GMT
and truth is always stranger than fiction.... for example if i said that the legal laws of the country in regard to divorce i were not aceptable to islam and that being a citizen was irelevent and islamic law took precedence...would i be lying Fatwa: A Civil Divorce is not a valid Islamic Divorce Haitham Al-Haddad Jul 21 |00:00 Last Updated on Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:32 The correct procedure for Islamic divorces or marriage dissolutions in non-Muslim countries is a significant topic that has been neglected by many Muslims in non-Muslim states. There are some fundamental details that many Muslims in the UK are unaware of, and as a result, we find many within the Muslim community falling prey to major misunderstandings. Many questions and cases presented to the Islamic Shari’ah Council (or fatwa line) are extremely shocking whereby Muslims fall into major sins and grave blunders due to their ignorance of the different rulings regarding marriage dissolution or divorce. The following points briefly illustrate the ways in which an Islamic marriage comes to an end. Ending a marriage in Islam can take place by one of three main methods: 1.Talaq: This form of divorce is the sole right of the husband whereby he pronounces the word divorce, talaq or any other similar word (in any language) to establish a divorce. No one may deprive him of this right given that he has been awarded such a right by God. This right belongs only to the husband and moreover, he does not need the consent or approval of any one, including his wife. Therefore, a woman divorcing her husband is Islamically incorrect and is invalid as a female has no such recourse to such a right, although she may request the conclusion of the marriage through other means. Similarly, an Islamic judge cannot issue a divorce but he can (once being recognised as an Islamic judge) issue a faskh (marriage dissolution). 2.Khul’: It is a divorce issued by the husband in exchange of money. It happens when the wife requests her husband to divorce her, but he refuses unless she returns her dowry. Again, it is the right of the husband and is conditional to his approval. 3.Faskh; it is a marriage dissolution issued by a judge in response to a request by the wife and normally takes place against the will of the husband. However, the judge has to be appointed either by the leader of the Muslims, or by the Muslim community, or at least recognized as being an Islamic judge by the vast majority of the Muslim community. Merely being an imam neither suffices nor authorises him to dissolve marriages. All of the Islamic (legal) schools of thoughts agree that the Islamic judge who implements Islamic law must be privy to certain requirements such as being a Muslim. In the Qur’an it is stated, “And never will Allah grant to the disbelievers a way (to triumph) over the believers.” It is not known that any scholar accepted a verdict issued by a non-Muslim (or non-Muslim body) on such issues. It seems that such a phenomenon is quite recent where some muftis and fatwa bodies have invented an opinion whereby the judgment of a non-Muslim judge is accepted. They attempt to justify this by claiming that being a citizen implies that you accept the law of land, and that any person who has accepted the citizenship of a country has appointed the non-Islamic judiciary to act on his behalf in dissolving his/her marriage. In response to these claims it should be initially noted that being a citizen of a state does not imply that a Muslim will accept all non-Islamic laws. Can Muslims accept non-Islamic inheritance law that prevails in western European non-Muslim countries? As for the claim that by accepting citizenship, the Muslim individual is delegating his right to divorce to the judiciary system of his country, then the response to this is such designation should be clear and explicit. In conclusion, I would like to affirm that the divorce issued by the civil court in response to the wife’s request is neither a valid divorce nor legitimate marriage dissolution. This means that such a wife remains a wife and is not free to marry another man. Marrying another man while the original marriage is still in place is a violation of Islamic law and a crime. What is more dangerous than this is the fact that all children she gives birth to before obtaining a proper marriage dissolution may be considered to be of the first husband from whom she assumed she had been divorced. Wives who face intolerable situations may seek marriage dissolution by a recognized body that is known and accepted in acting as a judiciary body for Muslims. No single imam or Mufti can do that by himself. And Allah the Most High is most knowledgeable.
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Post by fretslider on Jul 25, 2010 11:39:40 GMT
Well it doesn't look like we'll get an answer. I can't admit to being at all surprised. Methinks the lady (and the minions) doth protest too much.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jul 25, 2010 22:20:27 GMT
In my humble opinion, this is the best and most important discussion thread to date (since I've been on this board).
Not only is the topic of great interest, so are the resentments expressed by some members, and moves to reign in the discussion.
Islamic immigration is so significant in some western countries (Sweden, France, etc.) that it threatens to change society, or already has, and not for the better.
If we decide that it is politically incorrect to talk about it, then it becomes the elephant in the room that nobody talks about. That's not good.
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Post by mouse on Jul 26, 2010 6:53:04 GMT
In my humble opinion, this is the best and most important discussion thread to date (since I've been on this board). Not only is the topic of great interest, so are the resentments expressed by some members, and moves to reign in the discussion. Islamic immigration is so significant in some western countries (Sweden, France, etc.) that it threatens to change society, or already has, and not for the better. If we decide that it is politically incorrect to talk about it, then it becomes the elephant in the room that nobody talks about. That's not good. it is politocally incorrect to talk about these isusses..and while we bury heads in sand the tide is comming in fast societies have already been changed.....
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Post by iamjumbo on Jul 26, 2010 10:15:52 GMT
That's such a simplified view of the world, Islamic or non. You Islam haters seem incapable of separating culture and religion and desperately want the non Muslim world to believe that all Muslims are evil. We won't, because as you admit they are not. You arguments are not convincing, . June I do think Jumbo has Islam in clear focus. Here in the west, we have two kinds of people: 1/ Those who view Islam based on the facts (what they say, what they do, etc. Actions always speak louder than words), and 2/ Those who imagine Islam to be just another religion like Methodist, Jewish, Hindu, or Catholic. These people visualize Islam the way they would like it to be rather than how it actually is. To confuse the issue, there are a range of Muslims from truly devout to casual. In this case, it is like other religion in that there are people (here in western countries) who give lip service but don't go to the Mosque, don't wear head scarves, don't pray 5 times a day, don't eat Helah food, don't try to memorize the Quran, etc. They'll tell you that they are Muslims but that's a stretch. Please don't use them as an argument in support of Islam. They don't really count. Real Muslims, who are religious (pray 5 times a day, etc.) are the ones we should be discussing here. They're the ones Jumbo is describing. the problem is that, had you been in troy, you would have been leading the charge to go bring that horse inside. what the hell is so difficult to comprehend about the simple reality that whether or not there are a few who call themselves muslim do not believe in killing every non muslim, has NO relevance to anything whatsoever? it simply means that they are not real muslims, and do not follow the commandments of the religion of islam. it has absolutely nothing to do with hating anyone. the ONLY thing that is relevant is the ability, and will, to comprehend the simple reality that islam is a lifestyle, dedicated to the destruction of everyone and everything that the quoran deems evil end of story
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Post by iamjumbo on Jul 26, 2010 10:25:28 GMT
Mouse said, ".the other issue which is often left out is that islam is not simply a religion...and to people used to a religion being ...""just a religion"" ....it bcomes hard for them to get their heads round this wider all in concept islam is also political social law financial... a whole way of life..from birth to death..every thing is writen down..the way to sleep..the way to eat..the way to dress..even the way to wipe ones ass and what names to call ones children" ___ That's a very crucial point Mouse. Here is the USA we have separation of church and state as a cornerstone principle along with Freedom of Speech. Islamic countries have neither. They hate the whole idea of Democracy because it's clear to them that what the Mullahs say should take priority over what the people say. As Exhibit A, I give you Iran. As Exhibit B I give you the religious right in America who assert: a) That America IS a Christian country b) That it SHOULD be governed on Christian principles and any laws or anything else that conflicts with them should be repealed or made illegal c) That ALL non-Christians are inherently evil and damned Don't accuse me of making this up either. Apart from the fact that I've met a few of these people (especially in Texas) I belong to a fundamentalist Christian message board where I'm not only one of the few non-Americans but also one of the few who advocates the message of Christ in a NON-totalitarian way. I've been accused by some of the wackier guys on that forum of being a conscious servant of Satan as a result. And these guys want to elect the next Republican President! sorry hon, but you neglect to mention the most important difference. the christian right does not believe in murdering every non christian, as the quoran demands that every muslim do. christians believe that god will deal with the non believers rather than the adherents to the faith doing it. HUGE difference
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Post by iamjumbo on Jul 26, 2010 10:36:59 GMT
In my humble opinion, this is the best and most important discussion thread to date (since I've been on this board). Not only is the topic of great interest, so are the resentments expressed by some members, and moves to reign in the discussion. Islamic immigration is so significant in some western countries (Sweden, France, etc.) that it threatens to change society, or already has, and not for the better. If we decide that it is politically incorrect to talk about it, then it becomes the elephant in the room that nobody talks about. That's not good. that's precisely why the problem exists in europe. the lunatical notion of tolerating, or worse yet, promoting, something so clearly intent on the destruction of civilization, as is islam, and allowing it to permeate your society, is simply insane, and europe is reaping the fruit of that insanity
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Post by fretslider on Jul 26, 2010 10:40:21 GMT
In my humble opinion, this is the best and most important discussion thread to date (since I've been on this board). Not only is the topic of great interest, so are the resentments expressed by some members, and moves to reign in the discussion. Islamic immigration is so significant in some western countries (Sweden, France, etc.) that it threatens to change society, or already has, and not for the better. If we decide that it is politically incorrect to talk about it, then it becomes the elephant in the room that nobody talks about. That's not good. that's precisely why the problem exists in europe. the lunatical notion of tolerating, or worse yet, promoting, something so clearly intent on the destruction of civilization, as is islam, and allowing it to permeate your society, is simply insane, and europe is reaping the fruit of that insanity The problem exists because - as Lin has demonstrated - we're not allowed to discuss it openly. Others have threatened to 'take their ball home' because they don't like it. The Koran is a very nasty piece of fiction and there is no shortage of lunatics who follow it to the letter.
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Post by iamjumbo on Jul 26, 2010 11:32:35 GMT
that's precisely why the problem exists in europe. the lunatical notion of tolerating, or worse yet, promoting, something so clearly intent on the destruction of civilization, as is islam, and allowing it to permeate your society, is simply insane, and europe is reaping the fruit of that insanity The problem exists because - as Lin has demonstrated - we're not allowed to discuss it openly. Others have threatened to 'take their ball home' because they don't like it. The Koran is a very nasty piece of fiction and there is no shortage of lunatics who follow it to the letter. that is very true, and the number of lunatics grows daily. islam is the fastest growing cult in the world, with over a billion fools following the hallucinations of the pedophile
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Post by fretslider on Jul 26, 2010 11:41:34 GMT
Verse 49:15 states that anyone who claims to be a Muslim and refuses to fight and kill the unbelievers is not a Muslim and is branded by Muhammad as a hypocrite. Muhammad also requires all Muslims to search out and kill all hypocrites. Muhammad hated hypocrites even worse than he did Jews and Christians.
I still cant find any tidings of comfort and joy in this wretched book
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Post by june on Jul 26, 2010 17:16:17 GMT
the problem is that, had you been in troy, you would have been leading the charge to go bring that horse inside. No I would not I would have been a Greek what the hell is so difficult to comprehend about the simple reality that whether or not there are a few who call themselves muslim do not believe in killing every non muslim, has NO relevance to anything whatsoever? it simply means that they are not real muslims, and do not follow the commandments of the religion of islam. In your opinion, are you an Islamic scholar? Thought not.it has absolutely nothing to do with hating anyone. Then choose your words more wisely the ONLY thing that is relevant is the ability, and will, to comprehend the simple reality that islam is a lifestyle, dedicated to the destruction of everyone and everything that the quoran deems evil. so, much like all other religionsend of story if only
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Post by june on Jul 26, 2010 17:19:41 GMT
that's precisely why the problem exists in europe. the lunatical notion of tolerating, or worse yet, promoting, something so clearly intent on the destruction of civilization, as is islam, and allowing it to permeate your society, is simply insane, and europe is reaping the fruit of that insanity The problem exists because - as Lin has demonstrated - we're not allowed to discuss it openly. Others have threatened to 'take their ball home' because they don't like it. The Koran is a very nasty piece of fiction and there is no shortage of lunatics who follow it to the letter. But no different from any Abrahamic text, so why aren't you all denigrating those religions too?
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Post by mouse on Jul 26, 2010 18:20:45 GMT
The problem exists because - as Lin has demonstrated - we're not allowed to discuss it openly. Others have threatened to 'take their ball home' because they don't like it. The Koran is a very nasty piece of fiction and there is no shortage of lunatics who follow it to the letter. But no different from any Abrahamic text, so why aren't you all denigrating those religions too? the title of the thread explains why and actually it IS VERY different from the other abrahamic text and plays a very different role in fact although bits of judaism and christianity have been plagerised islam is quite different in its aproach and origins and mission..founder,,aims and ambitions and methods plus of course both judaism and christianity have had reformation[christianity more so than judaism and protastism more than the roman church] and both have a central body of responsibility which islam does not have..there are great differences between the three...even though all three come from the same area...
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Post by iamjumbo on Jul 26, 2010 18:25:39 GMT
The problem exists because - as Lin has demonstrated - we're not allowed to discuss it openly. Others have threatened to 'take their ball home' because they don't like it. The Koran is a very nasty piece of fiction and there is no shortage of lunatics who follow it to the letter. But no different from any Abrahamic text, so why aren't you all denigrating those religions too? primarily because any abrahamic text has absolutely nothing to do with the subject. only orthodox jews adhere to it, and they are few in number to begin with. the old testament also does not command them to arbitrarily go out into the world and murder every non jew. you lose all the way around, since nowhere in the new testament does jesus command christians to kill ANYONE. in fact, the exact opposite is true. in every instance, without exception, in which a follower of christ resorted to violence of any kind, he was reprimanded for it. it is really very simple, and there is nothing difficult to comprehend. jesus, buddha, and confucious were all men of peace, and preached peace. the pedophile was a man of war and murder, and preached that
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Post by fretslider on Jul 26, 2010 18:32:10 GMT
The problem exists because - as Lin has demonstrated - we're not allowed to discuss it openly. Others have threatened to 'take their ball home' because they don't like it. The Koran is a very nasty piece of fiction and there is no shortage of lunatics who follow it to the letter. But no different from any Abrahamic text, so why aren't you all denigrating those religions too? Duh? Have you read the Bible and the Koran, June? Jesus is a Prophet and a servant of God. Muhammad is also a Prophet and a servant of God. He was the last Prophet sent by God to guide and teach mankind. As a member of the Trinity, Jesus is viewed as God Himself. The Quranic teachings in this regard may be summed up as follows: (1) Christ was neither crucified nor killed by the Jews, notwithstanding certain apparent circumstances which produced that illusion in the minds of some of the enemies; and (2) Jesus was taken up to God (i.e.. God raised him up (raf'a) to Himself.) [Qur'an 4:157, 158 & 3:55 & 4:157] The holy Qur'an was revealed ('revelation' [wahi] is the highest form of inspiration with no possibility of error in the message or the conveyance of the message) to the Prophet Muhammad, p.b.u.h. through the angel Gabriel who was carrying out God's precise instructions. This occurred over a period of 23 years. The holy Qur'an is God's Word -- not the word of the Prophet Muhammad, p.b.u.h. (And all that mumbojumbo.) And god's word is, apparently.... 3.149: Believers ... put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. 9.123: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). As far as I'm concerned all religions are delusional, but Islam is a dangerously delusional faith.
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Post by mouse on Jul 26, 2010 18:34:01 GMT
the ONLY thing that is relevant is the ability, and will, to comprehend the simple reality that islam is a lifestyle, dedicated to the destruction of everyone and everything that the quoran deems evil. so, much like all other religionsend of story if only i can think of no where that jesus said to destroy...kill...and named the groups by name that were to be destroyed christ ..christianity...christianty is what christ taught...and did he teach murder
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