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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 17, 2010 22:56:17 GMT
It's one of the reasons Patrick set up Stub Crouch; to provide a space where people could talk about things without the endless anti-Islam stuff over and over and over and over. What happens if those discussions start happening on there as well? They don't. So I can't answer your question.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jul 18, 2010 0:53:25 GMT
this is where i lose patience...what is it with people that people imeadiately become hitler if you dont agree wuith them first its obama now its wilders..strewth The parallel I was drawing is that it is well known that Gertie hates Islam, just as Hitler's views on Judaism are well documented. Neither has anything interesting to debate or discuss because they are not starting from a point of rational detachment. 'I hate these people and I will tell you why they are evil..' is not a sound rationale for informed discussion. Perhaps if I said "Jeremy Clarkson's views on th caravan club' that might help. although I fear I am doing a disservice to Mr Clarkson who is at least open to persuasive proof. June - I must say that I find your position untenable on this issue. Comparing Geert Wilders to Hitler is ridiculous. Hitler intended to exterminate the Jews via mass murder and cremation. Geert Wilders has no such plan. He's simply pointing out some facts about the negative effects of Muslim immigration in some parts of Europe. If you don't agree with his presentation and conclusions, then please post your objections point by point. Please don't just lump him in with the Nazis. That's unfair. He strikes me as a reasonable guy who is simply sounding a warning. You can choose to ignore the warning. That's OK.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 18, 2010 5:22:27 GMT
No one here is spreading hatred against Muslims! I sense a double standard here!
Muslim countries too are very reserved about allowing non-Muslims to reside or immigrate to their countries! The Saudis impose a lot of strict stipulations on Westerners in their country, if they are at all allowed in.
Iran has granted amnesty to a few Europeans, whose outspoken views against Zionism, etc. had gotten them in trouble with the European judical system. Other westerners in small numbers might be given a temporary visa, but if they step out of line they're deported or worse!
No one accuses these Islamic countries of being hateful because they don't allow the mass immigration of Westerners into their nations! Or because they regard Westerners with reservations!
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Post by mouse on Jul 18, 2010 7:39:32 GMT
leaving adolph out of it and thinking of wilders.. i think wilders has said rather a lot about islam.... you want rational detachment....yet when people quite rationally and in a detached way quote the koran or the hadeeths or custom and practice which is exactly what wilders has done..your still not happy and how detached does a man have to be when he has a police guard 24 hrs a day year in and yr out..how detatched does he have to be to get his point across above the baying of the mob do you not find it very strange and very disturbing that any man or woman who publicly questions the islaic practises and norms is imeadiately under sentence of death..that those who question or quote history are threatened and intimidated....politos..ex muslims..practising muslims..popes..bishops..writers ..film makers etc etc ...such a wide range of people and even here on the internet and message boards come the cries of racist or hate monger if i were to write how i detested the klu klux klan would cries of predudice be thrown at me..... if i were to write how i detest mugabe and his regime would cries of predudice be thrown at me were i to say how much i dislike the catholic church would cries of predudice be thrown and i would be applauded for saying i disliked the nazis seems from where i am standing[sitting] theres a great deal of hypocracy when ones dislikes have to tick the right box and some are aceptable and some are not and there are those who spout on a bout freedom of speech and the rights choice..yet object when one excersise those choices
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Post by jean on Jul 18, 2010 8:42:05 GMT
Please read what Geert Wilders had to say and point out anything he said that isn't true. I think his presentation is factual and objective. Please show me where it is not. Well, I have, and here are just a few comments. I miust thank you for posting it - I hadn't realised what laughable nonsense it was until I read it. Sheer scaremongering. The man is counting on the fact that most Americans have little idea of what happens in Europe. Not even a majority of Muslim women dress like this. Not too hard to see what they're selling, though Oh sorry - buying and selling isn't economic activity.You can hardly blame Islam for Christians abandoning their religion. What, bigger than Canterbury cathedral? Than Notre Dame? Really? A siege! Or just that poor Muslim immigrants (most of course from France's ex-colonies in North Africa) have not been welcome in more attractive central parts of the capital? Is this a joke? Easier than providing two separate menus. Does it taste any different? I asked a French Jewish friend about this one and he says it's nonsense. I don't have to ask anyone about this. It's simply not true. I hope this will do. I'm not wasting any more time on this rubbish, but this much should be quite enough to discredit the rest.
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 18, 2010 9:15:06 GMT
The parallel I was drawing is that it is well known that Gertie hates Islam, just as Hitler's views on Judaism are well documented. Neither has anything interesting to debate or discuss because they are not starting from a point of rational detachment. 'I hate these people and I will tell you why they are evil..' is not a sound rationale for informed discussion. Perhaps if I said "Jeremy Clarkson's views on th caravan club' that might help. although I fear I am doing a disservice to Mr Clarkson who is at least open to persuasive proof. June - I must say that I find your position untenable on this issue. Comparing Geert Wilders to Hitler is ridiculous. Hitler intended to exterminate the Jews via mass murder and cremation. Geert Wilders has no such plan. He's simply pointing out some facts about the negative effects of Muslim immigration in some parts of Europe. If you don't agree with his presentation and conclusions, then please post your objections point by point. Please don't just lump him in with the Nazis. That's unfair. He strikes me as a reasonable guy who is simply sounding a warning. You can choose to ignore the warning. That's OK. But, as Jean has pointed out to you, Geert Wilders is not 'pointing out some facts'. He's a figure of fun making wild hyperbolic claims. He's a kind of European tea-partier.
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Post by mouse on Jul 18, 2010 9:52:18 GMT
widely reported in the press in ALL the press DENIED HUMAN RIGHTS: Women are not permitted to divorce Monday June 29,2009 By Macer Hall AT LEAST 85 Islamic Sharia courts are operating in Britain, an investigation reveals today. Muslim clerics are handing out hundreds of Sharia judgments – known as fatwas – through mosques around the country, the probe found. They are being published on internet websites run by Muslim groups. The findings raised serious concerns last night that a secretive network is being established alongside the judicial system. They will intensify calls for Sharia to be recognised by the legal establishment. The report is by the Westminster-based think-tank Civitas. Author Denis MacEoin said: “It is a challenge to what we believe to be the rights and freedoms of the individual, to our concept of a legal system based on what Parliament enacts and to the right of all to live in a society as free as possible from ethnic-religious division.” It was thought only about five Sharia courts were operating in Britain in London, Manchester, Bradford, Birmingham and Nuneaton. But informed sources within Muslim communities told Mr MacEoin that the figure was at least 85. He said the courts are concentrated in urban areas with high Muslim populations, such as the West Midlands. According to his research, rulings carried out included: Banning women from marrying non-Muslims. Approving a man marrying up to four wives. Depriving non-Muslim relatives of inheritance. Denying divorced women property rights. Banning women from leaving home without husband’s consent so is it still not true...is it still mythology and there has been at least one case of blood money payed in a sharia judgement on murder come into the real world jean and see the world as it is rather than what you percieve it to be
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 18, 2010 9:58:10 GMT
Everyone has a right to sort out their personal disputes using whatever system they like without going to court.
That some people use their religious leaders to do so is up to them.
It doesn't make shariah part of UK law.
I do worry about women going to shariah courts for divorces and the like and would prefer them to use the formal legal system as their rights are more likely to be looked after there. But you can't force people.
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Post by mouse on Jul 18, 2010 9:57:32 GMT
Please read what Geert Wilders had to say and point out anything he said that isn't true. I think his presentation is factual and objective. Please show me where it is not. Well, I have, and here are just a few comments. I miust thank you for posting it - I hadn't realised what laughable nonsense it was until I read it. Sheer scaremongering. The man is counting on the fact that most Americans have little idea of what happens in Europe. . what have americans to do with this ?thanlkfully its not just wilders who has grave concerns...and its not just wilders who knows there is a real problem i notice you bring no evidence to suport and dispute what you term laughable nonsence...but then its very hartd to dispute facts of course you can laugh them off..in fact you could split your sides but it wont make the problem go away
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 18, 2010 10:00:22 GMT
In fact, fuck this. I'm taking a few days off from this board.
Random Voice was absolutely right when he said that the endless droning on about Islam in the most extremist terms is boring, repetitive and has already ruined countless message boards.
And here goes another one . . . .
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Post by june on Jul 18, 2010 10:01:28 GMT
Thanks riot, I thought the world had gone mad and gw was suddenly a voice of reasonable discussion. I'm not inclined to give the insane rantings of a froth mouthed extremist the benefit of reasoned response. He's a fruitcake and it would matter nought. June - I must say that I find your position untenable on this issue. Comparing Geert Wilders to Hitler is ridiculous. Hitler intended to exterminate the Jews via mass murder and cremation. Geert Wilders has no such plan. He's simply pointing out some facts about the negative effects of Muslim immigration in some parts of Europe. If you don't agree with his presentation and conclusions, then please post your objections point by point. Please don't just lump him in with the Nazis. That's unfair. He strikes me as a reasonable guy who is simply sounding a warning. You can choose to ignore the warning. That's OK. But, as Jean has pointed out to you, Geert Wilders is not 'pointing out some facts'. He's a figure of fun making wild hyperbolic claims. He's a kind of European tea-partier.
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Post by jean on Jul 18, 2010 10:06:07 GMT
what have americans to do with this ? He made that particular speech in America, Americans being the only people who'd fall for it, except for a very few, very sad Europeans. The Americans at least have some sort of excuse as they aren't here and it's harder for them to judge at first hand. You know, even the BNP's propaganda bears more relationship to the facts than this stuff. Never thought I'd say that!
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Post by jean on Jul 18, 2010 10:07:51 GMT
Don't I get some thanks as weii?
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Post by mouse on Jul 18, 2010 10:10:48 GMT
mosques.. In cities all over Europe - Marseilles, Lyons, Cologne and London - there's controversy over plans to build large mosques. The proposed 'mega' mosque in East London would cover 17 acres and may end up housing 70,000 worshippers, and 200,000 people have signed a petition against it on the website of 10 Downing Street.
some what larger than notre dam..some what larger than canterbury neither of which will house 70,000.....but the plans keep going in.....the proposed minerets of one place[cologne i think]are 6 stories high...that is th minerests alone and it must be understood that a mosque is a statement not just a place of worship....and that is the crux of the matter
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Post by mouse on Jul 18, 2010 10:17:51 GMT
Thanks riot, I thought the world had gone mad and gw was suddenly a voice of reasonable discussion. I'm not inclined to give the insane rantings of a froth mouthed extremist the benefit of reasoned response. He's a fruitcake and it would matter nought.] but that is only your unreasoned opinon....so far you have brought no proof 1/a less ranting individual it would be hard to find froth mouthed..err no fruit cake....err facts are now nutty ?? extreemist...is it extreeme to have reached an opinon based on evidence.. those who were against communism afterall reached their conclusion based on evidence
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Post by mouse on Jul 18, 2010 10:33:38 GMT
"""Until recently, religion has been kept in its place in Western society. It has become a matter of one’s own personal belief and private conscience.
For generations, offending a religious person has been regarded as no more than bad manners. One of the fundamental benefits in the West is the right to offend and be offended.
Religion has not been a threat to society and the clergy has not formulated legislation in the West, although it has been allowed to lobby the various elected governments.
All this is changing due to the imposition of Islam.
No other religion demands more from those who do not adhere to its doctrine.
This would not be a problem in the West, if our leaders actually stood up for Western values and insisted that Muslims live within our laws and accepted our cultures and social systems.
Instead, it is we who are told we must abandon our values, cultures and societies in order not to offend Muslims. It is Islam that is being rammed down our throats and the throats of our children.
It is not only in the West that Islam is causing misery and mayhem. All around the world Islam is battling the “infidels”.
In response, all our politicians, journalists, social commentators and religious leaders do is avoid mentioning the murderous activities in places like Indonesia, Thailand and sub-Saharan Africa.
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Post by jean on Jul 18, 2010 11:49:11 GMT
but that is only your unreasoned opinon....so far you have brought no proof Neither did GW. Not a shred.
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Post by mouse on Jul 18, 2010 12:08:43 GMT
but that is only your unreasoned opinon....so far you have brought no proof Neither did GW. Not a shred. sharia in the uk ?myth or fact mosques myth or fact the inequalities of women..myth or fact the use of arabic myth or fact the ghettoisation of parisen suburbs myth or fact the influence of an alien religion on secular societies myth or fact the imposition of alien culture myth or fact alteration of school teachings myth or fact mosques myth or fact
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Post by june on Jul 18, 2010 12:41:32 GMT
It is my opinion yes, what else would I post? It's also my opion that it's neither worth the time or effort trying to persuade some posters here to be reasonable about Islam. So I will just out every extremist commentator and politician as just that. Thanks riot, I thought the world had gone mad and gw was suddenly a voice of reasonable discussion. I'm not inclined to give the insane rantings of a froth mouthed extremist the benefit of reasoned response. He's a fruitcake and it would matter nought.] but that is only your unreasoned opinon....so far you have brought no proof 1/a less ranting individual it would be hard to find froth mouthed..err no fruit cake....err facts are now nutty ?? extreemist...is it extreeme to have reached an opinon based on evidence.. those who were against communism afterall reached their conclusion based on evidence
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Post by june on Jul 18, 2010 12:45:17 GMT
Don't I get some thanks as weii? Jean thank you mwah, mwah. Sometimes I think I am the only thoughtful tolerant person in the world, you both show that hating whatever you don't understand or condone is the not the default setting of humans.
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