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Post by mouse on Jul 16, 2010 17:26:04 GMT
of course its a primitive act...have you the figures..i dont seem to be able to find them...i know its rife in north africa....any civilised person would disprove of the act..goes without saying
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 16, 2010 17:28:46 GMT
lin...i am not being irational nor predudiced about this i am following the islamic line...the prophet wasnt against it..luckily he wasnt activly for it either you know as well as i know that if the prophet gave the nod it has become an islamic matter...like the face covering issue it is NOT MANDATORY but it is ALOWABLE WITHIN ISLAM.....it can be justified within islam...it becomes an islamic matter check out the hadeeths which discuss this matter and i find it equally tirsome that some thing on which the prophet gave an opinion can be said not to be islamic when any one who knows anything about islam know a nod from the prophet and it becomes neither right nor wrong but one of the few areas of choice Al-Mawardi tells us how female circumcision is performed: "It is performed by cutting a piece of flesh over the vulva topping the entrance of the penis [that is the vagina]. It is homologous to a kernel or the crest of a rooster. One should cut the upper part of it, and not completely remove it."(6) Al-Shafi`i and most of his followers hold that circumcision is obligatory, as well as `Ata´, one of the old scholars. Ahmad and some of the Malikites hold that it is obligatory, while Abu Hanifa says that it is obligatory, yet it is not a ritual obligation. One Hadith says that it is sin to discard it. The Shafi´ites say that it is improper [to do such a thing] to women. Most scholars and some Shafi´ites hold that it is not obligatory.(7) Jurisprudents say that the circumcision of men, namely removing the foreskin, is a prophylactic procedure that keeps the body healthy. Female circumcision, they say, is otherwise, since removing the clitoris helps only to reduce the libido of the woman but does not do away with it, which is for the common good of society, and for her own good as well.(8) It can also preserve the woman's dignity and honour.(9) You're still missing the point, Mouse. IF the practice of FGM (which I totally oppose and detest) WAS practised ONLY by Muslims (or even MAINLY by them) you'd have a point. As it is not only practised by NON-MUSLIMS but actually practised MORE by them you don't. Add to that the FACT that MOST Muslims neither practise nor approve of FGM) and - well, sorry, but you don't have a case. FGM is NOT an Islamic issue and it really should NOT be sidetracked into yet another excuse to display religious bigotry.
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Post by mouse on Jul 16, 2010 22:44:00 GMT
lin...in my answers i try to be as factual as is possible..to avoid exageration and untruth ... we cannot possibly discuss FGM and its continuation without islam and islamic notions of modesty and norms entering the discussion..any more than we can leave out tribal norms to do so is to avoid a whole picture of the practices of fgm..where it arose..and simply pick out the bits we agree with we cannot leave out the impact of the prophets reaction to the question of fgm..we cannot leave out the debate within islam its self just as we couldnt discuss the crusades without involving christians....or torquameda without the inquisition.. to say i dont have a case is arogant and only your take..in that islamic scholars disagree on the subject...this is not about predudice or point scoring its about an evil which exists and makes the lives of women a living hell..if they survive the original op...sex and of course child birth i keep asking for figures so far you havent come up with them...[for no other reason than interest i may add]
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Post by jade on Jul 21, 2010 10:52:10 GMT
I'm with lin
Its not an Islamic issue.
It is an enslavement issue and so effects primitive parts of the world disproportionately, and women wholly.
So positions on inequalities to do with gender or wealth, no problem
Positions on Islam, not appropriate and detracts from the value of the position due to its being solely and worngly tainted my Islamophobia
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Post by firedancer on Jul 21, 2010 11:21:42 GMT
I am not a fan of any religion - far from it. But I think this is worth quoting Is FGC part of a religion? Although many people believe that FGC is associated with Islam, it is not. FGC is not supported by any religion and is condemned by many religious leaders. The practice crosses religious barriers. Muslims, Christians, and Jews have been known to support FGC on their girls.
No religious text requires or even supports cutting female genitals. In fact, Islamic Shari'a protects children and protects their rights. From a Christian perspective, FGC has no religious grounds either. In fact, research shows that the relationship between religion and FGC is inconsistent at best.
However, even though religious texts don’t support FGC, some people still think the two are linked and claim religious teachings support FGC.
In six of the countries where FGC is practiced — Ethiopia, Cote d'Ivoire, Kenya, Senegal, Benin, and Ghana — Muslim population groups are more likely to practice FGC than Christian groups. In Nigeria, Tanzania, and Niger, though, the prevalence is greater among Christian groups.Source: FGMBecause FGM in the UK mainly involves Muslims it is too easy to conflate the two. But it is a problem of ignorance and dehuminisation of females - something that many religions display and encourage and pretty much all so-called primitive cultures. * FGC - (female genital cutting) another alternative name for FGM.
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Post by jade on Jul 21, 2010 12:23:08 GMT
Nicely done, firedancer
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Post by mouse on Jul 21, 2010 13:25:42 GMT
sadly as has been pointed out the hadi ths do and equally sad is the fact that some scholars do..infact i have been suprised at the amount of debate on this issue[by sheiks..not board memebers] and it is the hadiths which have given weight to this matter along with the prophets coments but its also suprising just how many women of the areas actually suport this practise for what ever reason and from what ever practising group but a text doesnt have to suport a practise...take haj for example .. i would be very interested in knowing the beginings of this practise and who first thought it up..sounds as though it was a chastity thing in the first place...[though we never will know] a man thing as usual
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 21, 2010 16:27:39 GMT
Female genital mutilation LONG predates Islam - it even predates Christianity and Judaism.
It is a primitive practice which exists all over the world and has NO connection with Islam, Judaism or Christianity although people who claim to be believers in each of those religions HAVE practised it.
Since this thread is actually about female genital mutilation perhaps people should try posting on THAT subject rather than making it yet another excuse to display their religious intolerance.
I remind members once again that I set up the Vendetta section of this board for a good reason.
I or any other staff member who feels that a thread is spinning out of control can remove it to that password-protected section where it will not disrupt the main forum.
I much prefer it when people show common sense!
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 21, 2010 16:39:32 GMT
Here's a quote from Wikepedia on the subject:
The traditional cultural practices of FGC [FGM] predate Christianity and Islam. A Greek papyrus from 163 B.C. mentions girls in Egypt undergoing circumcision and it is widely accepted to have originated in Egypt and the Nile valley at the time of the Pharaohs. Evidence from mummies have shown both Type I and Type III FGC present.[43] (Note that the earliest evidence of male circumcision is also from Ancient Egypt.)
The UNICEF reported that: "... Al-Azhar Supreme Council of Islamic Research, the highest religious authority in Egypt, issued a statement saying FGM/C has no basis in core Islamic law or any of its partial provisions and that it is harmful and should not be practised."
Coptic Pope Shenouda, the leader of Egypt's minority Christian community, said that neither the Qur'an nor the Bible demand or mention female circumcision.'
All the evidence is that we can blame the Pharoahs for starting BOTH male AND female genital mutilation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2010 19:26:53 GMT
Mouse, I was surprised to read that (in the UK at least) it is often if not usually the women who press for this barbaric practice. Shame on them.
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Post by mouse on Jul 21, 2010 20:15:41 GMT
Female genital mutilation LONG predates Islam - it even predates Christianity and Judaism. It is a primitive practice which exists all over the world and has NO connection with Islam, Judaism or Christianity although people who claim to be believers in each of those religions HAVE practised it. I much prefer it when people show common sense! and i think we are all well aware that the practise pre dates both christianity and islam but it happens to be true that its is mentioned in the hadiths and there has been disputes among the scholars.....as has been posted however the practise was not world wide..it is now due to easier travel across continents ...a list of places where it was and IS practised as a norm was also posted these articles speak for them selves along with the information from the hadiths and the various rulings in egypt and all the vendettas in the world will not make facts go away ...like it or not facts and information have been posted on the issue from those for and those against
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Post by mouse on Jul 21, 2010 20:24:59 GMT
Mouse, I was surprised to read that (in the UK at least) it is often if not usually the women who press for this barbaric practice. Shame on them. i know..thats one of the bits i simply do not understand..unless they have been so btainwashed about chastity etc they can no longer think straight i was talking to a shrink about this he said the trauma was possibly so great that the only way some could cope was to see it as a total normal thing and couldnt bear to think it un-necessary..thus inflicting it on thir daughters he said the age of the girls...the first horrendous sexual and on going sexual experiemce and childbirth[where they are cut and then re sewn]in all probability just did their heads in on the subject.. plus they had probably seen the procedure,,,heard the cries of women on their wedding and subsequent nights etc etc it sounded feasable...but oh so awful have you read hirsi ali,s acount in infidel.....a remarkable woman
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Post by mouse on Jul 21, 2010 20:29:28 GMT
Here's a quote from Wikepedia on the subject: The traditional cultural practices of FGC [FGM] predate Christianity and Islam. A Greek papyrus from 163 B.C. mentions girls in Egypt undergoing circumcision and it is widely accepted to have originated in Egypt and the Nile valley at the time of the Pharaohs. Evidence from mummies have shown both Type I and Type III FGC present.[43] (Note that the earliest evidence of male circumcision is also from Ancient Egypt.) The UNICEF reported that: "... Al-Azhar Supreme Council of Islamic Research, the highest religious authority in Egypt, issued a statement saying FGM/C has no basis in core Islamic law or any of its partial provisions and that it is harmful and should not be practised." Coptic Pope Shenouda, the leader of Egypt's minority Christian community, said that neither the Qur'an nor the Bible demand or mention female circumcision.' All the evidence is that we can blame the Pharoahs for starting BOTH male AND female genital mutilation. that is very intersting about egypt and very true the koran and bible dont mention fgm but then one doesnt mention christmas and the other doesnt mention haj...but both are recognised as things pertaining to each religion
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 22, 2010 1:47:12 GMT
This film entitled "God's Sandbox" tells the story of a young woman, whose love affair with a Muslim brings her to a Bedouin tribe, where she experiences the horrors of FGM. I understand how some people may feel this film is hate propoganda against Muslims and i was traumatized by it. I suppose we could imagine this being the story of a young woman getting involved with some of the non-Muslim cultures that practice this cruelty as well. The film is a plea for human rights!
I agree that the majority of Muslims don't practice FGM. Researching for this thread i was pleasantly surprised to see that ultra Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran have made FGM more and more rare. Still if we claim the Pope could do more against child abusing priests than we can expect more from Muslim, Christian and human rights leaders in stopping FGM![/color] www.amazon.com/Gods-Sandbox-Amos-Lavi
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Post by mouse on Jul 22, 2010 7:38:52 GMT
""""Still if we claim the Pope could do more against child abusing priests than we can expect more from Muslim, Christian and human rights leaders in stopping FGM!""""
an excelent point anna... perhaps overseas aid should be conditional on the leaders of some countries enforcing a ban on this practise.... i know it wouldnt stop it over night but it would be a start but hey it aint going to happen....
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 22, 2010 12:46:38 GMT
The point is, Mouse, that it is NOT an Islamic issue and would ONLY be one if:
a) ONLY Muslims practised it
b) MOST Muslims practised it
c) NO or HARDLY ANY non-Muslims practised it
d) The MAJORITY of those who DO practise it WERE Muslims
Since NONE of those statements ARE true, I would appreciate it if people would STOP trying to turn it into a Muslim issue.
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Post by mouse on Jul 22, 2010 13:46:57 GMT
The point is, Mouse, that it is NOT an Islamic issue . for crying out loud Lin..its CONDONED in the hadeeths...thus making it an islamic issue.......some in agreement other not in agreement,,,it is not an OBLIGATION .....a matter of debate. just as the face covering is not an obligation but is practised and condoned we may as well say the haj is not an islamic issue tinyurl.com/37ej8tz QUOTE: The Circumcision of Girls What is the reason underlying the circumcision of girls, which is applied in some Islamic countries? The first reason is the statement of Muhammad: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."(3) The second reason lies in the supposition that circumcision makes a woman more enjoyable, provided that it is practised moderately. Umm `Atiyya the Ansarite narrated that a woman used to circumcise in Medina, and the Prophet said to her, "Do not overdo it, because this makes woman more favourable and it is more agreeable for the husband."(4) As to the third reason why a female should be circumcised, it is to "diminish her lust", and to "tone down the sexual desire of the woman."(5) Al-Mawardi tells us how female circumcision is performed: "It is performed by cutting a piece of flesh over the vulva topping the entrance of the penis [that is the vagina]. It is homologous to a kernel or the crest of a rooster. One should cut the upper part of it, and not completely remove it."(6) Al-Shafi`i and most of his followers hold that circumcision is obligatory, as well as `Ata´, one of the old scholars. Ahmad and some of the Malikites hold that it is obligatory, while Abu Hanifa says that it is obligatory, yet it is not a ritual obligation. One Hadith says that it is sin to discard it. The Shafi´ites say that it is improper [to do such a thing] to women. Most scholars and some Shafi´ites hold that it is not obligatory.(7) Jurisprudents say that the circumcision of men, namely removing the foreskin, is a prophylactic procedure that keeps the body healthy. Female circumcision, they say, is otherwise, since removing the clitoris helps only to reduce the libido of the woman but does not do away with it, which is for the common good of society, and for her own good as well.(8) It can also preserve the woman's dignity and honour.(9)
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 22, 2010 14:17:29 GMT
The entire 1 hour 20 minutes of the film "God's Sandbox" can be seen on this film. It's very disturbing! At the end of the film statistics are given. 8,000 women and girls suffer FGM every day in the world!
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Post by mouse on Jul 23, 2010 6:42:16 GMT
i havent watched the video..i simply cannot face it...sorry anna
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♫anna♫
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The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 24, 2010 5:29:47 GMT
i havent watched the video..i simply cannot face it...sorry anna I don't blame you one bit mouse! Again i warn everyone that this film is very disturbing! Watch it at your own risk!
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