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Post by Big Lin on Jul 13, 2010 22:25:17 GMT
In the first place, I am dead against female genital mutilation.
Secondly, it is NOT a practice confined to Muslims.
Thirdly, it is NOT a practice endorsed by the Quran.
Fourthly, what about MALE circumcision?
Who is raising an outcry about the compulsory circumcision of MALE children?
I'm a libertarian - if people want to mutilate themselves when they're adults I can only let them get on with their lives.
It's a different matter when it's kids we're talking about.
I oppose male circumcision of infants just as much as I do female circumcision of infants.
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 13, 2010 22:28:27 GMT
Well I suppose you could start a Muslim Admiration Thread if that would make you happy. I don't admire any organised religious sect. But there does seem to be a pervading view on here that all the worlds ills is because of Islam. That sort of low rent tabloid thinking is really tiresome. It's as if we are playing debate bridge and Islam trumps everything else in the pack. June, I understand your frustration. Mike and I and several other members have consistently tried to point out that we DON'T regard Islam as inherently evil or Muslims as being a cross between perverts and terrorists. Both Mike and I have invited Muslims to join this board. They came as guests, viewed a few posts and told us that they felt they would be completely intimidated by the general air of hostility and hatred that existed towards them. One of them was an ATHEIST Pakistani; the other a LIBERAL American. Judging Islam by bin Laden, Ahmedinajad and so on is like judging Christianity by the IRA or Judaism by the Kahanists!
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Post by riotgrrl on Jul 14, 2010 7:06:18 GMT
I thought it was well known that FGM goes on in the UK and other European areas. But one commentWhy would it cause the death of babies? Is it the unsterile conditions? I ask as it does not seem to me that cutting a piece of 'skin' off would be intrinsically fatal to babies. Octopus The precise nature of FGM varies from area to area, but can include the complete removal of the clitoris and sewing together the vaginal lips leaving only a small gap for menstrual flow. Some new husbands get to 'open up' their wives. Some use a knife to do it. To compare that to the removal of the foreskin is not comparing like with like.
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Post by jean on Jul 14, 2010 7:53:44 GMT
And you still haven't really answered June's question: what's the purpose of posting a year old article? I can't answer that, since I didn't post the article. I just don't see anything to be gained by playing mutilation of the sexes top trumps. Neither do I. That's why I reacted as I did to alan doing just that.
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Post by mouse on Jul 14, 2010 8:14:47 GMT
who indeed said anything about islam ;D and yes female mutilation IS an islamic practise.....[condoned by the prophet]who when asked about female circusission replyed A SMALL CUT....thus making this barbarity part and parcel of islamic practise for those so inclined.. but also a tribal practise pre dating islam still practised today by a mainlymuslim following in north africa and the mid east ...alive and well in somalia..[egypt has tried to stamp it out but with little sucess so far this is a dreadful practise..has any one read.. aayan hirsi ali... book which decribes in horryfying detail..a book well worth a read but whose title i cannot remember a remarkable woman who has been and still is under sentence of death ... but please read the book
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Post by mouse on Jul 14, 2010 8:45:53 GMT
[quote But there does seem to be a pervading view on here that all the worlds ills is because of Islam. . ALL the worlds ills surely that is a slight exageration.. certainly some of the worlds ill,s but certainly not ALL unfortunately much of what islam MANDATES is at odds with life in the west at this moment in time ..thus open to discussion and debate or are we not to discuss or even give a nod to things which impact on to what is going on in the world and i wonder how low rent tabloids come into it...would it be more aceptable if it were only reported in the ""better""media..[which of course happens] and of course it is islam mandated ...which makes it more difficult to eradicate..[were it simply trible it would be far easier] LIN said """Both Mike and I have invited Muslims to join this board. They came as guests, viewed a few posts and told us that they felt they would be completely intimidated by the general air of hostility and hatred that existed towards them. One of them was an ATHEIST Pakistani; the other a LIBERAL American.""" bit of nonsence there lin..how can a muslim be an athiest ??its an impossibility same with being a LIBERAL american the two MINDSETS just dont mix... an athiest cannot be a muslim...you make it sound as though muslims were a race..which of course they are not an air of hostility or hatred is surely toward islam ...its practises and preachings...rather than individual muslims and how much better to have stood their corner and justified the practices and preachings ...could have made for some very interesting threads
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Post by mouse on Jul 14, 2010 8:54:18 GMT
. Thirdly, it is NOT a practice endorsed by the Quran. . it doesnt have to be as you are well aware....the hadiths and sharia are of equal importance for justification...in fact some would argue more important in regard of impact ...[.much custom and practice is based on what the prophet is alleged to have said and done ]
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 14, 2010 10:00:08 GMT
. Thirdly, it is NOT a practice endorsed by the Quran. . it doesnt have to be as you are well aware....the hadiths and sharia are of equal importance for justification...in fact some would argue more important in regard of impact ...[.much custom and practice is based on what the prophet is alleged to have said and done ] The Hadiths have a FAR higher status than the sharia rulings since they are ALLEGED to be the sayings of Mohammed. Even so, female circumcision remains a practice which only a TINY proportion of Muslims - mainly in backward places like Somalia - carry out. Actually if we consider the FACTS there are FEWER Muslims than NON-MUSLIMS who practice female circumcision. Male circumcision is endorsed by the Bible, of course. (Well, the Old Testament, anyway! St Paul was a bit more liberal on that subject.)
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Post by mouse on Jul 14, 2010 10:44:34 GMT
well right now were are discussing female circ..not male and as riot has pointed out there is little similarity between the two yes i know which is considered the most important but the three combined make it a no win set of rules/customs etc i also would dispute that its only carried out in backward places like somalia..big problem in egypt and thats without mentioning the uk..europe..australia and canada.. america...hardly an isolated activity....so while a minority within the 2.6 billion the practise is spread across the world i dont have the figures of muslim non muslim fgm......so whether non muslims practice it more i cannot confirm or deny..... what i do know is that is a barbaric practise and those who do practise and suport this should be thrown out of any civilised society...nothing like the threat of being removed to make people change their minds..this is nothing more than gbh on females who cannot fight back have you read the hirsi book
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Post by chefmate on Jul 14, 2010 13:11:07 GMT
Read " A God Who Hates" by Wafa Sultan and then try defending the Islamic faith.
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Post by mouse on Jul 14, 2010 14:34:44 GMT
there are brave women out there..sultan..ali and manji being three of the best known and ALL under death sentence
Yesterday at 6:13pm, june wrote: This constant Islam bashing is really getting dull. Any interesting debate is being stifled."""
why is an interesting debate being stiffled ?? in what way...islam is simply part of the problem...and is an inherent part of the debate.... what apears to be the problem is that any subject in which islam or muslims are ivolved is seen as ""islam bashing"" well we cannot run around avoiding what has and is happening just because it may shine a light on some very unhealthy customs and practices... we cannot stop freedom of speech and ignore what is going on in the world because a few may not like what is said
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 14, 2010 19:20:53 GMT
filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/human-rights-facts-11/ Human rights organisations sometimes make a distinction between "Female Circumcision" and "Female Genital Mutilation". I consider all of this mutilation, but when compiling statistics sometimes the less severe mutilations are unfortunately ignored.
The article link above also confirms that Lesbians in the Western world were subjection to this mutilation until 1950!
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 14, 2010 20:07:14 GMT
Islam does not seem to endorse the extreme FGM that many Muslims in Africa and Indonesia, etc. practice. The "pro moderate mutilation" viewpoint is presented below. WARNING! The content is sickening!tinyurl.com/37ej8tz QUOTE: The Circumcision of Girls What is the reason underlying the circumcision of girls, which is applied in some Islamic countries? The first reason is the statement of Muhammad: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."(3) The second reason lies in the supposition that circumcision makes a woman more enjoyable, provided that it is practised moderately. Umm `Atiyya the Ansarite narrated that a woman used to circumcise in Medina, and the Prophet said to her, "Do not overdo it, because this makes woman more favourable and it is more agreeable for the husband."(4) As to the third reason why a female should be circumcised, it is to "diminish her lust", and to "tone down the sexual desire of the woman."(5) Al-Mawardi tells us how female circumcision is performed: "It is performed by cutting a piece of flesh over the vulva topping the entrance of the penis [that is the vagina]. It is homologous to a kernel or the crest of a rooster. One should cut the upper part of it, and not completely remove it."(6) Al-Shafi`i and most of his followers hold that circumcision is obligatory, as well as `Ata´, one of the old scholars. Ahmad and some of the Malikites hold that it is obligatory, while Abu Hanifa says that it is obligatory, yet it is not a ritual obligation. One Hadith says that it is sin to discard it. The Shafi´ites say that it is improper [to do such a thing] to women. Most scholars and some Shafi´ites hold that it is not obligatory.(7) Jurisprudents say that the circumcision of men, namely removing the foreskin, is a prophylactic procedure that keeps the body healthy. Female circumcision, they say, is otherwise, since removing the clitoris helps only to reduce the libido of the woman but does not do away with it, which is for the common good of society, and for her own good as well.(8) It can also preserve the woman's dignity and honour.(9) As we mentioned previously, the main reason for the circumcision of girls, according to the jurists, is to restrain lust or the sex drive. For the girl nowadays is exposed to all kinds of temptations, they argue, which lead to depravity and corruption in society.(10) Lastly, we learn from Shaltut that women accept circumcision willingly to honour their husbands, as they also hate to look at that part of the flesh that would increase the enjoyment of man when removed.
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Post by sadie1263 on Jul 14, 2010 22:18:06 GMT
Throughout history there have always been people and/or groups that have skewed religion to their radical beliefs.....and that includes just about every religion. The Spanish Inquisition, do you think they believed they were wrong? The Crusades......they were killing all those people to save them......Jim Jones and his perfect community.......that didn't quite work out.
These people believe they are in the right and saving people's immortal souls.....and willing to die for their beliefs......that's what makes them so dangerous. It's like the more you disagree the more radical they become........
It's easy to point out a certain group and want to hold them accountable......but look at the number of people that belong to that group.....and then look at the number of people that are the problem before you make a judgement.
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 14, 2010 23:33:57 GMT
The simple FACT is that MORE non-Muslims practice FGM than Muslims.
MOST Muslims actively DISAPPROVE of the practice.
This is NOT an 'Islamic' issue.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 15, 2010 3:21:44 GMT
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Post by mouse on Jul 15, 2010 5:53:49 GMT
The simple FACT is that MORE non-Muslims practice FGM than Muslims. MOST Muslims actively DISAPPROVE of the practice. This is NOT an 'Islamic' issue. of course its an islamic issue...it is mandated by islam...its not obligatary just as the burkha is not obligatary but the prophet wasnt against it..thus making it aceptable lordy if it were the catholics/christians we wouldnt be having these excuses but as always excuses abound when it comes to islam i would like to see the figures on muslim non muslim mutilation and who has published those figures bit like some one mentioned yesterday the UN wanted to make islam a race issue..totally leaving out which countrys at the UN tried to push that mad idea through... FGM is an islamic practise..."""The first reason is the statement of Muhammad: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women.""" and his remark..""when asked about it he said""a small cut""etc etc etc ....you dont get much more islamic than the words of the prophet..as any muslim will vouchsafe i dont understand why people feel they must be prissy toward islam its past and present practices...and yet will slate christianity with great passion..usually dragging in the crusades without mentioning WHY the crusades..or the inquisition without mentioning WHY the inquisition and quite often then try to present hitler as a god fearing practising christian
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Post by mouse on Jul 15, 2010 6:00:17 GMT
The simple FACT is that MORE non-Muslims practice FGM than Muslims. MOST Muslims actively DISAPPROVE of the practice. it doesnt matter what MOST muslims disaprove of...what they disaprove of is irelevent...it doesnt stop the practise........it is writen end of story untill such time as islam is reformed
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 16, 2010 16:51:54 GMT
The simple FACT is that MORE non-Muslims practice FGM than Muslims. MOST Muslims actively DISAPPROVE of the practice. This is NOT an 'Islamic' issue. of course its an islamic issue...it is mandated by islam...its not obligatary just as the burkha is not obligatary but the prophet wasnt against it..thus making it aceptable lordy if it were the catholics/christians we wouldnt be having these excuses but as always excuses abound when it comes to islam i would like to see the figures on muslim non muslim mutilation and who has published those figures bit like some one mentioned yesterday the UN wanted to make islam a race issue..totally leaving out which countrys at the UN tried to push that mad idea through... FGM is an islamic practise..."""The first reason is the statement of Muhammad: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women.""" and his remark..""when asked about it he said""a small cut""etc etc etc ....you dont get much more islamic than the words of the prophet..as any muslim will vouchsafe i dont understand why people feel they must be prissy toward islam its past and present practices...and yet will slate christianity with great passion..usually dragging in the crusades without mentioning WHY the crusades..or the inquisition without mentioning WHY the inquisition and quite often then try to present hitler as a god fearing practising christian Mouse, it is NOT mandated by Islam. It is also practised by MORE non-Muslims than Muslims. MOST Muslims neither PRACTICE nor APPROVE of FGM. The majority of FGM is carried out in primitive parts of the world. There are even some Muslim countries where the practice is actually FORBIDDEN. Please try to be less one-dimensional on this issue - it's not only very tiresome having to see a poster I otherwise respect and like very much descending to irrational prejudice rather than trying to discuss the subject properly.
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Post by mouse on Jul 16, 2010 17:23:35 GMT
lin...i am not being irational nor predudiced about this i am following the islamic line...the prophet wasnt against it..luckily he wasnt activly for it either you know as well as i know that if the prophet gave the nod it has become an islamic matter...like the face covering issue it is NOT MANDATORY but it is ALOWABLE WITHIN ISLAM.....it can be justified within islam...it becomes an islamic matter check out the hadeeths which discuss this matter and i find it equally tirsome that some thing on which the prophet gave an opinion can be said not to be islamic when any one who knows anything about islam know a nod from the prophet and it becomes neither right nor wrong but one of the few areas of choice and as the scholars cannot agree why would you ecpect us to..the one thing we can agree on is it is not obligatary Al-Mawardi tells us how female circumcision is performed: "It is performed by cutting a piece of flesh over the vulva topping the entrance of the penis [that is the vagina]. It is homologous to a kernel or the crest of a rooster. One should cut the upper part of it, and not completely remove it."(6) Al-Shafi`i and most of his followers hold that circumcision is obligatory, as well as `Ata´, one of the old scholars. Ahmad and some of the Malikites hold that it is obligatory, while Abu Hanifa says that it is obligatory, yet it is not a ritual obligation. One Hadith says that it is sin to discard it. The Shafi´ites say that it is improper [to do such a thing] to women. Most scholars and some Shafi´ites hold that it is not obligatory.(7) Jurisprudents say that the circumcision of men, namely removing the foreskin, is a prophylactic procedure that keeps the body healthy. Female circumcision, they say, is otherwise, since removing the clitoris helps only to reduce the libido of the woman but does not do away with it, which is for the common good of society, and for her own good as well.(8) It can also preserve the woman's dignity and honour.(9)
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