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Post by Big Lin on Jul 27, 2011 14:33:50 GMT
I think you're confusing revisionism with holocaust denial.
Revisionist historians, like Michael FitzGerald, Martin Broszat and Hans Mommsen, agree that the numbers have been exaggerated. They also dispute the extent to which unsystematic local massacres rather than centrally planned extermination was responsible for the death toll. Even so, they agree that many, perhaps half, of the murders WERE carried out by direct order from the government.
You have said that NO conscious order for extermination was ever given. That makes you NOT a revisionist but a holocaust denier.
I notice you also haven\t responded to my question.
Do you think it's morally better to kill 300,000 or 6 million?
Do you think a one-off murderer is morally better than a serial killer?
Do you remember the speech in 1939 by Hitler on the outbreak of the war when he said that the result of the war would be the "extermination" (he used the word 'vernichtung' if I remember rightly)?
How clear can you be? Have you read Mein Kampf? Hitler's Secret Book? Table Talk? His political testament?
No one can read those things with an honest, open mind and NOT realise that he DID order the murder of millions.
Frankly, it's a direct personal insult to my relatives who died in Auschwitz!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2011 20:12:11 GMT
Thanks for explaining the difference between a revisionist and a holocaust denier.
I went back through this thread and the barmy Bishop is quite clearly a denier. But Anna in #10 rather muddied the waters by saying:
That suggests that revisionist ideas can't be voiced. I hope that isn't true,
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Post by sevenup on Jul 27, 2011 20:41:32 GMT
That suggests that revisionist ideas can't be voiced. I hope that isn't true, And what you think about holocaust denial? Should that be illegal? Note that Irving, who says quite emphatically that he is not a holocaust denier, has served a couple of years of jail time for expressing his ideas. There is a worldwide effort to make holocaust denial, and holocaust revisionisim, illegal . in the US it is led by the Anti-Defamaton League, the ADL. You can read about their work here ..... 'Racists, Bigots, and the Law'.... www.adl.org/internet/print.aspand here ... 'Hate Crime Laws' www.adl.org/99hatecrime/print.aspThe ADL has been thwarted in the US by the First Amendment to the Constitution, and you can read them grousing about it in the above links. And, they have made big inroads here, with many states passing restrictive 'hate crime' laws. Traditionally the right wing, especially the southern conservatives, have opposed 'hate crime' laws, but with the democratic administration the opposition has been falling. Now the only organized resistance comes from the religious right .... see... www.truthtellers.org/The problem the religious right has is that hate crime laws make speaking out about homosexuality, etc., a potential hate crime. The international B'nai Brith has been very successful in passing hate crime laws in some European countries, for example, Ireland .... here is an excerpt from Ireland's Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act of 1989 ... (1) It shall be an offence for a person— ( a ) to publish or distribute written material, ( b ) to use words, behave or display written material— (i) in any place other than inside a private residence, or (ii) inside a private residence so that the words, behaviour or material are heard or seen by persons outside the residence, or ( c ) to distribute, show or play a recording of visual images or sounds, if the written material, words, behaviour, visual images or sounds, as the case may be, are threatening, abusive or insulting and are intended or, having regard to all the circumstances, are likely to stir up hatred. Thus if the Irish government judges that your opinions are 'likely to stir up hate', you can be arrested. I.e., they can arrest you for anything at all.
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 27, 2011 21:32:17 GMT
It's pretty simple, really.
If you admit that the holocaust happened you're not a denier.
If you claim that it didn't - and I've seen a clip of David Irving claiming exactly that - you're a denier.
Now whether or not you think people who tell lies should be punished is a moral issue at bottom.
I was opposed to Irving's imprisonment even though what he said was a deliberate LIE.
For what it's worth in the early 1980s Irving went on public record as saying that he believed the true figure of the holocaust to be 1 million.
Now, sevenup, please STOP impersonating a politician trying to avoid answering a tricky question.
Just answer these three questions.
1 Is it morally worse to lock people up for telling lies or to commit murder?
2 Do you condemn what the Nazis did in the way of mass murder and brutal torture?
3 Do you accept that many people (let's forget the figures for the time being) WERE deliberately murdered in cold blood by the Nazis on the authority of the German state and Hitler?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2011 22:12:57 GMT
My gut feeling is "no". The matter should be out in the open, where their theories would almost be swiftly countered and disposed of by anyone who cares to look at the evidence.
But there is a niggle going on in my head over it. As I said earlier, if people want to believe something, they'll get fixated on some flimsy information to support it.
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Post by sevenup on Jul 27, 2011 23:14:48 GMT
Just answer these three questions. 1 Is it morally worse to lock people up for telling lies or to commit murder? 2 Do you condemn what the Nazis did in the way of mass murder and brutal torture? 3 Do you accept that many people (let's forget the figures for the time being) WERE deliberately murdered in cold blood by the Nazis on the authority of the German state and Hitler? 1. There is nothing wrong with jailing people for telling lies if those lies result in demonstrable injury to another individual, hence the slander laws. Committing murder is morally wrong. 2. Let's take a case, Lidice, for example, and assume that the standard narrative is correct, which it might be. I would condemn that. 3. Well, we have the example of Lidice, so the answer would be yes. I'm not really a student of what the Nazis did in WW II. But killing non-combatants in a war is murder and I condemn it, unfortunately it has become routine, in Iraq for instance, in Afghanistan, with the drone strikes, etc. But, consider, do you accept that many people, over 100,000 in a single afternoon, were murdered in cold blood by the authority of the United States and President Truman? Or, what is your opinion of Falluja. Or, did you know that the US Air Force flew about 100 attack sorties on essentially defenseless people YESTERDAY? www.airforce-magazine.com/DRArchive/Pages/default.aspxIncidentally, my sympathies in WW II are with the Russians. Although their government was probably the worst the world has even seen, still, they were attacked (even though it now appears Stalin was planning on attacking Germany) with no obvious provocation, they suffered the most, and the Russians were the most indomitable ..... the old saying, Russia is never as strong as it looks, Russia is never as weak as it looks.
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Post by sevenup on Jul 29, 2011 20:16:02 GMT
I have a question for those who believe the standard narrative of the holocaust is true, and I'll tell you beforehand, you can't answer this question. Here it is - why have you never seen this picture - The picture is taken from a film taken by the British forces when they liberated Belsen. It was included in a movie the British made after the war, directed by none other that Alfred Hitchcock, but the movie was shelved, no doubt because of images like the above which contradict the standard narrative. Frontline a few years ago did feature the movie, and now you can see it online for reference, google Frontline Memory of the Camps. The children above are mostly Jewish I think, I think about half the camp was Jewish at the end of the war. There are lots more photos that will give you a true picture of the camp at the end of the war here ... www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/Database/SurvivorsPhotos.asp?index=0Of course there are many dead and dying, these pictures have been shown to the public ad infinitum since the wars end. But, not everyone was dying, as the above photos show.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2011 11:01:02 GMT
It is accepted now ( I think) that Belsen never was an extermination camp and had no gas chambers. The report below paints a sympthetic picture of the camp commander and says people died there as a result of overcrowding, bringing disease, and starvation due to the cut-off of supplies. www.ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n3p23_Weber.htmlThe pictures of well-fed children don't accord with what we have been led to believe about Belsen, but they don't quite tie in with my article either.
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Post by sevenup on Aug 1, 2011 0:45:16 GMT
It is accepted now ( I think) that Belsen never was an extermination camp and had no gas chambers. You are correct. Yet, as an earlier link documents, there were on the order of 35,000 who died at Belsen at the end of the war due to disease, malnutrition, lack of everything. The photos of these dead and dying at Belsen are still routinely shown as evidence that the standard holocaust narrative is accurate. For example, there was a show a few years ago where Oprah and Elie Wiesel visited Auschwitz. You can see the show on youtube now. The opening sequence shows Oprah and Wiesel at the gates of Auschwitz, which is still standing. As they stand there a narrator introduces the show .... the picture switches to the photos of dead Belsen prisoners, being bulldozed into a mass grave. This happened after the wars end and the prisoners had died of disease. Here is the narration, I transcribed it myself .... "That evil has a name, the Holocaust. A systematic mass murder meticulously planned and executed by Nazi Germany that brutally wiped millions of people off the face of the earth."Here is picture taken by the Soviets as they entered Auschwitz ..... it was not shown on the Oprah show .... I gave a link in the previous post to 225 photos from Belsen, they'll give you an accurate impression of the state of the camp when liberated. It was a very mixed bag.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Aug 1, 2011 3:58:25 GMT
The Auschwitz museum director Dr. Piper has admitted that this chimney next to the alledged gas chamber in the Auschwitz main camp was built in 1947 after the Soviets gave the Polish communist regime control of the camp. Tour guides in Auschwitz still claim people disappeared up this chimney.
The smoking chimneys of Auschwitz that people saw from miles away inside and outside Auschwitz must have been those of the Monowitz factory a few miles away. This factory is still running today. The wartime aerial reconnaissance pictures don't show any other smoking chimneys. The Filip Muller testimony of a round chimney can't be found in these fotos either.
Nevertheless Even a number of 300,000 deaths in these camps is horrific. America lost a little over 50,000 men in the Vietnam war and here we have 6 times that number.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2011 6:47:17 GMT
Anna, in an earlier post you suggested that anyone who tried to question what sevenup calls "the standard narrative" is treated as a holocaust denier in Germany.
Can you clarify this? Arguing about the details - which camps executed prisoners, how many died and from what causes - is surely not the same as denying that many Jewish and othere people died by execution, or from starvation and disease during transport to and confinement in concentration camps?
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Post by sevenup on Aug 1, 2011 15:11:00 GMT
Anna, in an earlier post you suggested that anyone who tried to question what sevenup calls "the standard narrative" is treated as a holocaust denier in Germany. Can you clarify this? Arguing about the details - which camps executed prisoners, how many died and from what causes - is surely not the same as denying that many Jewish and othere people died by execution, or from starvation and disease during transport to and confinement in concentration camps? I don't know the German law, but Hungary recently passed a holocaust denial law which sets the standards for absurdity ..... The legislation will come into force in early April. “Those who publicly hurt the dignity of a victim of the Holocaust by denying or questioning the Holocaust itself, or claim it insignificant, infringe the law and can be punished by prison sentence of up to three years,” the law reads.For more info on the Hungarian law see .... www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=171333From the law you don't have to deny the six million, it is enough to question it, as even raising the question is sufficient to hurt the dignity of holocaust victims. For that you can go to the gaol for up to three years.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Aug 1, 2011 16:39:38 GMT
Anna, in an earlier post you suggested that anyone who tried to question what sevenup calls "the standard narrative" is treated as a holocaust denier in Germany. Can you clarify this? Arguing about the details - which camps executed prisoners, how many died and from what causes - is surely not the same as denying that many Jewish and othere people died by execution, or from starvation and disease during transport to and confinement in concentration camps? Hi SkyLark! These "holocaust denial laws" are rather unclear. A lot of standard historians have reduced the 6 million figure, which at one time was protected by law and they've had no trouble. A Jewish Maidanek survivor living in Munich named J.G. Burg claimed no one was gassed in Maidanek and he had no problems because he was a Jewish survivor. Usually it's the local district attornies, who decide whether or not to press charges.
I'm sure a public speaker or someone distributing holocaust doubting/denying pamplets could expect trouble.
There is another aspect of the holocaust laws where anyone who publicly approves of what happened to Jews under the nazis will face charges.
The laws in Germany and Europe are loosening up. The YouTube videos of David Cole, David Irving and other holocaust sceptics are no longer being censored much in Germany. The German government still rigorously censors hate music out of the Skinhead and White supremacist scenes as well as nazi march songs, all of which can be seen on YouTube, etc. in the USA and UK.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2011 17:13:55 GMT
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Post by sevenup on Aug 1, 2011 21:10:32 GMT
If true, that would explain the photos Sevenup posted. Or of course, the presence of healthy survivors mthe ight have prompted the allegations. Clicking on footnote 11 doesn't really give the answer. [/url][/quote] Belsen, or probably a section of Belsen, was a 'special camp' for Jews who had special value and were to be released, or traded, or some such, I don't really know the details, but by the end of the war thousands of prisoners had been transferred in from the eastern camps that had been overrun, and that's what resulted in the terrible conditions and epidemic. Remember, Belsen is where the photos of the bodies being bulldozed into thee graves were taken. It's also where Anne Frank died. By the end of the war it was one of the worst camps. But, you'll need to 'explain' the photo from Auschwitz, and you might try to 'explain' this one from Dachau ..... Then, try to explain why you have never before seen these photos.
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Post by Synonym on Aug 1, 2011 21:37:22 GMT
For more info on the Hungarian law see .... www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=171333From the law you don't have to deny the six million, it is enough to question it, as even raising the question is sufficient to hurt the dignity of holocaust victims. For that you can go to the gaol for up to three years. Reminds me of times in history when it was heresy to say that the Earth was just another planet revolving around the sun. I think people should always be free to question facts no matter how much people who have never researched the issue just know them to be true.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2011 22:19:54 GMT
Sevenup, I haven't seen very many pictures of concentration camps before today. I'm not sure which Austwich photo you mean, but that last one crops up by googling "liberation of Dachau" so what is its significance?
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Post by mikemarshall on Aug 1, 2011 23:37:39 GMT
For more info on the Hungarian law see .... www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=171333From the law you don't have to deny the six million, it is enough to question it, as even raising the question is sufficient to hurt the dignity of holocaust victims. For that you can go to the gaol for up to three years. Reminds me of times in history when it was heresy to say that the Earth was just another planet revolving around the sun. I think people should always be free to question facts no matter how much people who have never researched the issue just know them to be true. Are you assuming that historians like Ian Kershaw have not researched the issue fairly thoroughly? Are you assuming that bodies such as the Holocaust Museum have not researched it? Are you assuming that the confessions of Eichmann and other Nazis are bogus? Are you assuming that when Hitler spoke of "annihalating" the Jews in 1939 he did not mean exactly what he said? Are you assuming that all the Holocaust survivors are lying?
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Post by mikemarshall on Aug 1, 2011 23:42:47 GMT
Of course there were differences between the camps. Two, one of which was Terezin (Theresienstadt in German) was deliberately created by the Nazis as a "show camp" where smiling inmates, many of them children, received good food, clothes, and good treatment.
There were only six "extermination camps" of which Auschwitz was the best known.
On the other hand some of the non-death factories engaged in medical experiments that undoubtedly did result in needless deaths.
However hard one may try to spin the facts there simply is no escape from the incontrovetible reality that the Nazis DID set out to murder huge numbers of people simply because of their ethnicity.
They were no different from the Hutu in Rwanda in their attempts to wipe out the Tutsi.
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Post by sevenup on Aug 2, 2011 0:57:13 GMT
Sevenup, I haven't seen very many pictures of concentration camps before today. I'm not sure which Austwich photo you mean, but that last one crops up by googling "liberation of Dachau" so what is its significance? The Auschwitz photo is the 2nd photo on page 8 (this page) of this thread. The Dachau photo just shows a bunch of apparently healthy people at the end of the war, many of whom were Jews I believe.
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