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Post by sevenup on Jul 25, 2011 19:00:16 GMT
[ Instead the Germans investigated Koch's homicidal activities towards Buchenwald prisoners and had him tried, convicted and executed. This does raise questions! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Otto_Koch Not only that, it was Standard Operating Procedure. Morgen stationed investigators in the camp for several months, interviewing guards as well as prisoners. And, he conducted 800 investigations. Don't hold your breath waiting for him to appear in the US media.
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Post by june on Jul 25, 2011 19:33:46 GMT
You are deflecting. I don't think you have demonstrated anything but, save your typing fingers because I'm not interested in an argument that seeks to make the Nazi's 'reasonable'. That's me done on here - I'm finding the posts facile and tedious (even my own! ;D) You are definitely guilty of underplaying what happened at Buchenwald and to compare it to any US facility is incredulous. I think that I have demonstrated that the Nazis prosecuted crimes in the camps, particularly Buchenwald, where the commandant was tried and hanged for involvement in the deaths of three prisoners, whereas at Abu Graib there have been many deaths an no senior US official has been tried for any offense, much less convicted and hanged. There were many deaths is the Nazi camps because the Nazis lost the war. By the end of the war the conditions in the camps, particularly the camps in the west which were the last to fall and which had received many prisoners transferred from camps in the east, were so bad that many deaths resulted. The same thing happened in the US civil war, btw, at Andersonville prison in the south, with many prisoners dying of disease at the end of the war. Prison camps on the losing side become hells on earth, no question. And believe it or not the commander, Henry Wirz, was tried for killing prisoners and convicted and hung. The trial was a complete sham, you can read about it here .... www.factasy.com/civil_war/2008/05/20/trial_henry_wirzWirz was accused of killing prisoners, none of whom were named. This is often cited as the first 'war crimes trial'. The govts main witness was an imposter, etc., etc. The account above is interesting but not complete.
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Post by sevenup on Jul 25, 2011 19:35:58 GMT
Dearest Sevenup, Surely you wouldn't deny the mass killing in Lidice of innocent Czechs by the nazis?
In truth, I don't know a thing about it one way or the other. Why not tell me why you believe it happened. And, even knowing nothing, I'll still know the first question I'll ask - 'Where are the bodies?". Please note - when there is a real massacre, there are bodies. When a real massacre is investigated, the grave s are excavated and the bodies are examined. For example Katyn, and Vinnitsa. Usually there is not too much doubt about what happened. That reminds me of a suspected 1892 massacre of 57 Irish workers that occurred in the US .... here's the story .... www.aolnews.com/2010/08/25/pennsylvania-ghost-story-leads-to-murder-mystery/The investigation is ongoing. A mass grave has been excavated and forensic examinations are taking place.
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Post by sadie1263 on Jul 25, 2011 21:53:23 GMT
Sevenup......what exactly is it that you are looking for? Are you looking for proof of the amount of people that died in concentration camps.......or just a discussion that there are different stories and that everything about that time is not written in stone?
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 25, 2011 23:15:39 GMT
Dearest Sevenup, Surely you wouldn't deny the mass killing in Lidice of innocent Czechs by the nazis?
In truth, I don't know a thing about it one way or the other. Why not tell me why you believe it happened. And, even knowing nothing, I'll still know the first question I'll ask - 'Where are the bodies?". Please note - when there is a real massacre, there are bodies. When a real massacre is investigated, the grave s are excavated and the bodies are examined. For example Katyn, and Vinnitsa. Usually there is not too much doubt about what happened. That reminds me of a suspected 1892 massacre of 57 Irish workers that occurred in the US .... here's the story .... www.aolnews.com/2010/08/25/pennsylvania-ghost-story-leads-to-murder-mystery/The investigation is ongoing. A mass grave has been excavated and forensic examinations are taking place. The massacre of the inhabitants of Lidice was a reprisal for the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich. This assassination was planned and carried out by British agents. The residents of Lidice had nothing to do with this assassination.
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Post by sevenup on Jul 25, 2011 23:44:14 GMT
In truth, I don't know a thing about it one way or the other. Why not tell me why you believe it happened. And, even knowing nothing, I'll still know the first question I'll ask - 'Where are the bodies?". Please note - when there is a real massacre, there are bodies. When a real massacre is investigated, the grave s are excavated and the bodies are examined. For example Katyn, and Vinnitsa. Usually there is not too much doubt about what happened. That reminds me of a suspected 1892 massacre of 57 Irish workers that occurred in the US .... here's the story .... www.aolnews.com/2010/08/25/pennsylvania-ghost-story-leads-to-murder-mystery/The investigation is ongoing. A mass grave has been excavated and forensic examinations are taking place. The massacre of the inhabitants of Lidice was a reprisal for the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich. This assassination was planned and carried out by British agents. The residents of Lidice had nothing to do with this assassination. You didn't answer my question. I don't believe the video was accurate, to begin, it looked like a compilation of pictures from who knows where. Perhaps there is a better reference. Then, my question, where are the bodies? The inhabitants were shot and buried in a mass grave. Well, if that is true the grave would have been excavated by now. I have found no indication that it has been. That said, a few minutes googling convinces me that the town was destroyed and the inhabitants dispersed one way or another. I don't doubt that many were shot. A Czech? poster on another forum claims that the town was well know to be a center of British collaborators. Is that true? I have no idea. So, in short, a horrible fate befell Lidice, but as to what really happened I think that is a mystery because as far as I know the grave has not been excavated. If it has, then I'll accept the wiki account as accurate. If not, I'll remain in the dark a bit. I didn't find too much on it by googling. I am used to uncertainty regarding many matters of the actual history of the period. Note: no mention of an excavation in the wiki article.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 26, 2011 0:19:41 GMT
The massacre of the inhabitants of Lidice was a reprisal for the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich. This assassination was planned and carried out by British agents. The residents of Lidice had nothing to do with this assassination. You didn't answer my question. I don't believe the video was accurate, to begin, it looked like a compilation of pictures from who knows where. Perhaps there is a better reference. Then, my question, where are the bodies? The inhabitants were shot and buried in a mass grave. Well, if that is true the grave would have been excavated by now. I have found no indication that it has been. That said, a few minutes googling convinces me that the town was destroyed and the inhabitants dispersed one way or another. I don't doubt that many were shot. A Czech? poster on another forum claims that the town was well know to be a center of British collaborators. Is that true? I have no idea. So, in short, a horrible fate befell Lidice, but as to what really happened I think that is a mystery because as far as I know the grave has not been excavated. If it has, then I'll accept the wiki account as accurate. If not, I'll remain in the dark a bit. I didn't find too much on it by googling. I am used to uncertainty regarding many matters of the actual history of the period. Note: no mention of an excavation in the wiki article. The mass grave of the 173 male victims of the Lidice massacre is shown here on this link with details of the exact location. I'm sure even David Irving would agree with me that an excavation isn't neccesary. www.geolocation.ws/v/W/4cf1de471d41c86e2c00545b/the-mass-grave-of-lidices-men/en www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Lidice QUOTE: Although the village of Lidice was destroyed completely, it was rebuilt after the war, beginning in 1947, by the national government. The new Lidice, with its center located a short distance from the original site, debuted in 1949. The former site was kept as a place to preserve the common grave of the men who died in the massacre, for a village history museum, and a memorial to the dead that has received contributions from many countries.
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Post by sevenup on Jul 26, 2011 1:15:36 GMT
You didn't answer my question. I don't believe the video was accurate, to begin, it looked like a compilation of pictures from who knows where. Perhaps there is a better reference. Then, my question, where are the bodies? The inhabitants were shot and buried in a mass grave. Well, if that is true the grave would have been excavated by now. I have found no indication that it has been. That said, a few minutes googling convinces me that the town was destroyed and the inhabitants dispersed one way or another. I don't doubt that many were shot. A Czech? poster on another forum claims that the town was well know to be a center of British collaborators. Is that true? I have no idea. So, in short, a horrible fate befell Lidice, but as to what really happened I think that is a mystery because as far as I know the grave has not been excavated. If it has, then I'll accept the wiki account as accurate. If not, I'll remain in the dark a bit. I didn't find too much on it by googling. I am used to uncertainty regarding many matters of the actual history of the period. Note: no mention of an excavation in the wiki article. The mass grave of the 173 male victims of the Lidice massacre is shown here on this link with details of the exact location. I'm sure even David Irving would agree with me that an excavation isn't neccesary. www.geolocation.ws/v/W/4cf1de471d41c86e2c00545b/the-mass-grave-of-lidices-men/en www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Lidice QUOTE: Although the village of Lidice was destroyed completely, it was rebuilt after the war, beginning in 1947, by the national government. The new Lidice, with its center located a short distance from the original site, debuted in 1949. The former site was kept as a place to preserve the common grave of the men who died in the massacre, for a village history museum, and a memorial to the dead that has received contributions from many countries. I predicted there would be no excavated mass grave. And I also tried to establish the idea that excavation is in order WHENEVER and WHEREVER a mass grave is found. Especially one that occurred in the not too distant past. Excavation is necessary to identify the victims. It is necessary to give the victims proper burials. I would expect the relatives to demand it. In the final analysis, excavation is necessary to even know if it really is a mass grave. When the Nazis discovered mass graves at Katyn and Vinnitsa they assembled teams of forensics experts and excavated and identified the bodies. This is standard operating procedure. Note that at Nuremberg the Soviets charged the Nazis with committing the Katyn massacre, even thought everyone knew the actual history. The point is, a lot of lying has gone on, so, if there is a mass grave at Lidice it should be excavated and the victims identified. This grave is not directly related to the holocaust anyhow, but, still I would like to see it excavated just to see what the facts are. So, all things considered, I think it should be excavated. Until then its contents are unknown. The other point is that there is not a single mass grave of holocaust victims ANYWHERE that has been excavated (there could be an exception in Lithuania where the Lithuanians turned on the Jews with the Nazis approval).el There are NO excavations at the 'death camps', even those where there were no crematoriums - Treblinka, Belzec, Chelmo, Sobibor.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2011 7:31:36 GMT
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Post by sevenup on Jul 26, 2011 11:37:43 GMT
Modern forensics would surely be able to uncover some evidence from the site, though I'm not sure whether it would be possible to identify any individuals, let alone a cause of death, from ashes or charred bones. Simply put, there is not a shred of physical evidence that the bodies were burned. So, how do we 'know' that it happened? You can read the account of Yankel Wiernik who wrote a small book 'A Year In Treblinka' that was published in 1945 (approx) in New York in English and is one of the primary source documents of the holocaust, Wiernik is one of the most cited sources of the dean of holocaust historians Raul Hilberg. To get a sense of the book I'll provide a few quotes... pg. 8 we came into the Treblinka camp. Only on arriving did the horrible truth dawn on us. The camp yard was littered with corpses, some still in their clothes and some naked, their faces distorted with fright and awe, black and swollen, the eyes wide open, protruding tongues, skulls crushed, bodies mangled. And blood everywhere, the blood of our brothers and sisters, our fathers, and mothers. pg. 14 One of them, Ivan, was tall, had and gentle eyes, but was, nevertheless, a sadist. He often attacked us while we worked and nailed our ears to the wall pg 16 Between ten and twelve thousand people were gassed daily. pg. 19 A German named Zopf was a vile a savage beast, who took special delight in abusing children. When he pushed women around and they begged him to desist because of the children, he frequently snatched a child out of a woman's arms and tore it in half pg 28 It turned out that women burned easier than men. Accordingly, corpses of women were used as kindling for the fires. pg 29 The Germans stood around with satanic smiles on their faces, radiating satisfaction over their foul deeds. They drank toasts with choice liquors, ate, caroused, and enjoyed themselves around the warm fire. Thus, even after death the Jew was of some use ... the heat came from the burning bodies of Jews. The German fiends stood warming themselves, drinking, eating and singing. pg 34 However 'freedom or death' was our motto. In the meantime I completed the construction of the blockhouse. To celebrate the occasion, the 'Hauptsturmfuehrer' treated us to rum and sausage. The book can be found is some university libraries, and is now online. To me, it reads as pure phantasmagoria. Incidentally, John Demjanjuk was tried in Israel as being the 'Ivan' from the quote on page 14. He was identified by 5 eyewitnesses from the camp, convicted, and sentenced to death. James Trafficant, Demjanuk's congressman, became interested in the case and it was revealed to him that forged documents were used to extradite Demjanuk from the US. Demjanuk had never set foot in Treblinka. He was eventually released. End of story? No. Trafficant was jailed for tax evasion. He just recently got out. Demjanuk was recently extradited again, and tried in Germany for being a guard at Sobibor. No specific crimes were charged. He was 'convicted' I believe but released on a technicality. He's about 90 years old, and there is not a shred of evidence that he ever committed any crime.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2011 15:46:45 GMT
That may or may not be the case, sevenup. Historians would be foolish indeed to rely on the testimony of one witness, especially one whose account was appearing in a book that made lots of money. I suppose the modern equivalent would be the "misery memoir"; many books of that genre seem to have embroidered the truth.
But fortunately for history, there was more than one survivor at all these places, and each of those survivors told a story. Each of those stories might differ in detail from others - indeed, if they didn't it would be strange indeed. But historians can distill enough common factors from these accounts to piece together a picture.
If gas chambers were really bath-houses, where are the witnesses to say "actually, I had a shower in there"? I can't swallow the idea that every survivor was conned into believing that something quite innocuous was a killing house.
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Post by sevenup on Jul 26, 2011 17:06:54 GMT
If gas chambers were really bath-houses, where are the witnesses to say "actually, I had a shower in there"? Funny you should ask. Elie Wiesel was a prisoner at Auschwitz for one year, and he wrote a book about it, 'Night'. In the book there is not a single mention of gas chambers ! It's a short book of about 150 pages, but you can use the amazon.com 'Search Inside the Book' feature to verify that he mentions taking a shower on six, 6, separate occasions. Here's the first example, pg. 36 ... "A barrel of foul smelling liquid stood by the door. Everybody soaked in it. Disinfection. Then came a hot shower." I can't swallow the idea that every survivor was conned into believing that something quite innocuous was a killing house. You imagine that there are thousands of eyewitnesses to the gas chambers. You're incorrect. Yehuda Bauer, director of Yad Vashem, the USHMM of Israel, wrote in a book by Filip Meuller, title 'Three Years in a Gas Chamber(!)" .... exclamation added .... "This is a unique document indeed. It is the testimony of the only man who saw the Jewish people die and lived to tell the tale"Bold added - remember this is from the director of Yad Vashem. Perhaps you should read Meuller's book - The first six pages should amaze you. Let's see if you can swallow that ! Meuller must have had the same editor as Wiernik, I'll give a short example later.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 26, 2011 18:12:10 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2011 20:07:40 GMT
You imagine that there are thousands of eyewitnesses to the gas chambers. You're incorrect. Yehuda Bauer, director of Yad Vashem, the USHMM of Israel, wrote in a book by Filip Meuller, title 'Three Years in a Gas Chamber(!)" .... exclamation added .... "This is a unique document indeed. It is the testimony of the only man who saw the Jewish people die and lived to tell the tale"Sevenup, I shall ceraiinly keep an open mind. What did the concentration guards have to say about gas chambers? Oh, a quick google has revealed this: www.scrapbookpages.com/Mauthausen/Gas%20Chamber/Gas02.html
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Post by sevenup on Jul 26, 2011 20:37:00 GMT
An open mind is a wonderful thing, and scrapbookpages is a great resource for holocaust related material. However, you have to be careful when it comes to Nazi confessions. The prime example is the confession of Rudolf Hoess, commandant at Auschwitz, who confessed to gassing 2 million Jews and killing another by other means. And, when told that 2 million was too many, he confessed to gassing one million. It's also worth noting that Hoess was not the only commandant at Auschwitz and in fact at the height of the holocaust was transferred to another camp. His replacement was Richard Baer. Baer was eventually captured after the war, and scheduled for trial. He is said to have claimed no one was gassed at Auschwitz. When captured he was in his 40s and in good health. His trial was repeatedly postponed. He died in his cell and was never tried. The trial, there were other defendants, commenced shortly thereafter. But confessions are always suspect. Here is a must see ... www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/the-confessions/Four navy men stationed at Norfolk were accused of a brutal rape and murder of a woman. Although they did not know the woman at all and barely knew of each other, they confessed to her rape and murder and provided damning and graphic details. The show is absolutely amazing. In short, you cannot believe uncorroborated confessions of people on trial for their lives. I'll have some more on the Nuremberg trials later. If you watch the vid above I guarantee you'll be amazed. I was.
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 26, 2011 22:22:32 GMT
Well, let's see. An official report by the SS in 1943 states that 2.4 million Jews had been "liquidated."
Survivors of the camps testify to seeing other inmates taken to the "shower block" and they never saw them again.
Even former Nazi guards and other officials have admitted that the death camps DID exist and that they DID murder people.
The myth that gas chambers were NOT used in the death camps - NOT the same thing as concentration camps - there were only six camps that were specifically designated as "death camps" or "extermination centres" - has long been exposed.
How many died in the gas chambers? We'll never know.
My second cousin (I always called him my uncle - it's a term of respect among us Romanies) was five years old when he and his family were arrested and sent to Auschwitz. He was helped to escape by a prison guard who took pity on him and told him he would die if he stayed there. His parents and elder brother and sister were never seen again. He was helped to escape and hidden in safety for the next year till the war was over.
Gypsies (my people) as well as Jews, Poles, homosexuals and others were murdered in cold blood as well as dying of overwork, neglect and preventable diseases.
I find it personally offensive as someone who lost family members in that appalling crime that people can even believe that the holocaust, or as my people call it, the porajmos, "never happened."
For what it's worth even David Irving, when he did research in the 1990s, discovered a WRITTEN order by HItler authorising genocide.
Hardly a name you'd associate with Zionism or left-wing politics.
That neo-Nazi looper in Norway probably believes that "the holocaust never happened."
I guess the main question from a moral point of view is, do you seriously think that killing thousands is any BETTER than killing millions?
Is a murderer better because they're not a serial killer?
A serial killer better because he only killed five people instead of fifty?
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Post by sevenup on Jul 26, 2011 23:48:13 GMT
I find it personally offensive as someone who lost family members in that appalling crime that people can even believe that the holocaust, or as my people call it, the porajmos, "never happened." I do not, and revisionists do not, generally speaking, say that the holocaust did not happen. As I explained, there are two narratives for what happened to the Jews and others the Nazis deemed 'undesirables' during WW II, the standard narrative, and the revisionist narrative. There is considerable agreement between the two narratives, for example, both hold that the Jews were put in concentration camps and were given tattoos (in Auschwitz only I believe). Thus, no one denies that prisoners were given tattoos. Then, there are significant differences in the narratives, the main 3 being that the standard narrative states that 1. the Nazis planned to exterminate all European Jews 2. the Nazis built gas chambers to kill the Jews 3. the Nazis killed on the order of six million Jews. The revisionist narrative does not agree with the standard narrative on any of these points. For what it's worth even David Irving, when he did research in the 1990s, discovered a WRITTEN order by HItler authorizing genocide. I am a big fan of Irving, and I'm not aware of this. Perhaps you can provide a reference. I guess the main question from a moral point of view is, do you seriously think that killing thousands is any than killing millions? I don't think that is the question here. The standard narrative states that the Nazis purposefully and systematically exterminated six million Jews and five million non-Jews. The revisionist narrative states that on the order of 300,000 Jews died in the camps from disease and other causes, not as the result of deliberate murder. I think there is a big difference.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 27, 2011 2:49:06 GMT
Then, there are significant differences in the narratives, the main 3 being that the standard narrative states that 1. the Nazis planned to exterminate all European Jews 2. the Nazis built gas chambers to kill the Jews 3. the Nazis killed on the order of six million Jews. The revisionist narrative does not agree with the standard narrative on any of these points. I am a big fan of Irving, and I'm not aware of this. Perhaps you can provide a reference. David Irving did admit that Hitler signed a "Euthanasia Bill" to have the mentally retarded killed. The killing was done with Carbon Monoxide gas. The Germans discontinued this after the Vatican protested.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2011 6:48:03 GMT
I don't think that is the question here. The standard narrative states that the Nazis purposefully and systematically exterminated six million Jews and five million non-Jews. The revisionist narrative states that on the order of 300,000 Jews died in the camps from disease and other causes, not as the result of deliberate murder. I think there is a big difference. What worries me if the criminalisation of people who say this sort of thing. It needs to be brought into the open and exposed for what it is. And of course exactly the same goes for what you call the "standard narrative" But I guess people are lazy. If they choose to believe that there were no gas chambers or any deliberate extermination of Jews, they'll focus on the scraps of evidence to support it and ignore the much greater weight of evidence against it.
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 27, 2011 14:26:12 GMT
I am a big fan of Irving, and I'm not aware of this. Perhaps you can provide a reference. David Irving did admit that Hitler signed a "Euthanasia Bill" to have the mentally retarded killed. The killing was done with Carbon Monoxide gas. The Germans discontinued this after the Vatican protested.It's not only that. In the late 1990s Irving discovered a WRITTEN order for genocide signed by Hitler. I'll have to try and dig out the reference but it's the truth. The simple FACT is that mass murder WAS carried out by the Nazi state. Why are the holocaust deniers too cowardly to ADMIT that? I prefer the honest (if contemptible) attitude of Colin Jordan's wife (the Dior heiress) who, when a Jewish taxi driver refused to take her face because he was Jewish, retorted, "well, if you are a Jew, what are you doing out of the ovens?"
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