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Post by june on Jul 23, 2011 7:31:45 GMT
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..... The tired and frankly insulting 'arguments' you posts are well worn denier theories. They have been exposed as fantasy by better people than me, not least by people who were actually there. It's easily found on the web, go look it up if you are that interested. I asked you why you bring this poison here, what's your motivation? Ah your post is enlightening but, not in the way you hope. I see you are a holocaust denier. Why do you want to underplay Nazi crimes? Are you a Neo Nazi or Jew hater? I am happy to trust the evidence of the time, the photograps and testimonies from Nazi's and Allies. The census records, the trace evidence at the camps etc. You know, real stuff. June, your post is also enlightening, but not in the way you hope. Whether or not you agree with my previous post, I think you can see that I did my best to present a convincing argument that the gas chambers did not exist, or at least enough information to provoke some discussion on the subject, and I did present evidence in the form of photos to document my claims. You did not address any of the arguments I made, or make any of your own, instead you started calling me names. Name calling in a standard tactic of persons who want to prevent any critical examination of the holocaust. It's all part of a spectrum, derail the discussion with name calling, ban the discussion, and if all else fails, lock up or fine the person doing the discussing, e.g. Bishop Williamson. I believe the holocaust is the only historical narrative that is defended with these tactics. Can you think of another?
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Post by toby on Jul 23, 2011 8:55:15 GMT
June posted.:-If you find that offensive then you are beyond any help i can advise.
Toby comments.:- If it is a falsehood then it is a falsehood and no amount of waffle from you is going to change that. Facts are that it looks like the number of victims was deliberately inflated, this is plain wrong !
Nobody is denying the holocaust here, we are discussing why the Jews found it necessary to deliberately, (and it was deliberate - this is the nasty bit), inflate the number of victims.
On another board I frequent it was suggested that every time the Israelis grab another piece of Palestinian land, or refuse to comply with an UN resolution they trundle the holocaust out as the cornerstone of their defence and they seem to have gotton away with this for 60 + years.
If this is so then it is plain wrong !!
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Post by toby on Jul 23, 2011 8:57:31 GMT
Anna posted.:-I'm very cynical about all political systems! Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Toby comments.:- A small but important correction Anna,
Absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.
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Post by toby on Jul 23, 2011 9:00:27 GMT
Sadie posted.:-The fact is......atrocities happen all the time! Why does the number of people matter
Toby comments.:- That the number of victims was deliberately inflated for Political Reasons, this is of great concern.
Also of great concern is the realisation that even in this day and age, there are cynical folk quite prepared to use the tragedy of the holocaust to stifle relevant questioning !
(see the comments of June)
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Post by june on Jul 23, 2011 9:15:42 GMT
Feel free to post your facist propaganda. I'll not be bullied into letting it pass.
I want to know why you feel the need to post it?
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Post by june on Jul 23, 2011 9:17:49 GMT
Toby I suggest you pop your seeing eye glasses on and read what 7up posted. He is indeed denying the holocaust happened.
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Post by toby on Jul 23, 2011 9:18:00 GMT
Liberator posted.:-When it came round to do the same in Japan, they did all they could to let the Japanese off the hook, though in some ways they had been worse.
Toby comments.:- Politics in action !!
I knew a chap (now passed on), who was a prisoner of the Japs, he was an active member of the ,'Far east prisoners of War Association, and lobbied against all things Japanese. There used to be quite a few very active associations like the FEPOWA mainly ex UK and Commonwealth Military people and they would not buy Sony, Toshiba, Honda, Toyota etc yet they happily bought Volkswagen, Porsche, Mercedes Benz.
The irony of buying a car from a firm that used Slave Labour during the war must have escaped them.
You don't find any associations of POW's in Germany and that is because on the whole the Germans did not ill treat British POW's.
One reason the British POW's dislike the Japanese is due to the way the Japs used to humiliate the British POW's by buggering them. Beatings they could take but nothing humiliates a man more than being buggered with his buddies watching, hence the legacy of bitterness ex POW's have against the Japs !
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Post by toby on Jul 23, 2011 9:24:16 GMT
June posted.:-Toby I suggest you pop your seeing eye glasses on and read what 7up posted. He is indeed denying the holocaust happened.
Toby comments.:- It must be obvious to just about everybody, that people who wish to deny the holocaust get masses of ammunition from reports that the numbers of victims was falsified. Nothing demolishes an argument faster than the realisation that basic facts have been fiddled, hence the clamour for the truth to be told about the true number of victims.
It was a major error made by the Israelis and it has opened up a Pandoras Box that folk like Williamson will exploit !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2011 10:05:11 GMT
I'm happy to believethe possibility that the numbers have neem exaggerated.
But I'm afraid Sevenup's previously interesting posts are beginning to look ridiculous. It is hard to swallow a claim that the Nazis did not gas a single Jew.
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Post by toby on Jul 23, 2011 10:54:35 GMT
Skylark posted.:-But I'm afraid Sevenup's previously interesting posts are beginning to look ridiculous. It is hard to swallow a claim that the Nazis did not gas a single Jew.
Toby comments.:- Nobody could make such a claim and expect to be believed.
It is true that the Zyklon B gas was developed for the mass de-lousing of clothes and very effective it was too but you have the shower rooms where even today you can see the marks where folks clawed at the walls with their fingers. It takes something special to make a mark in hard concrete with fingernails !
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Post by sevenup on Jul 23, 2011 12:00:08 GMT
Skylark posted.:-But I'm afraid Sevenup's previously interesting posts are beginning to look ridiculous. It is hard to swallow a claim that the Nazis did not gas a single Jew. Toby comments.:- Nobody could make such a claim and expect to be believed. I did not just make a claim, I presented what I consider evidence for the claim. Do I expect it to be believed? Not really. My hope is that some of the unquestionable facts that I presented will convince you to think about the question. You, and everyone else, has been told from day 1 that the holocaust happened and that the Nazis gassed the Jews. Did you know that it is mandated in many states to teach the holocaust in schools, in all grades, starting in kindergarten? Believe it or not ..... www.teachinflorida.com/documents/HolocaustGradesK3.pdfSo, given the incredible indoctrination that we are receiving on the question, maybe you should, just in the interest of due diligence, give the other side of the question some serious thought. Yes? No? Suppose you want to think about it, how to proceed? Well, in a murder investigation you start with the body? Where are the bodies? And next, the murder weapon. Where is the murder weapon? There are no bodies showing signs of gas poisoning. The US sent forensic pathologists into the camps at the end of the war. They performed hundreds of autopsies. Not a single body showing signs of gas poisoning has even been found in any camp. Camps like Auschwitz and Majdanek had crematoriums, so the standard narrative is that the bodies were cremated. How many? Ten thousand per day ! Some of the 'extermination camps' did not have crematoriums. Here the standard narrative is that Paul Blobel directed an action to exhume the bodies and burn them. See the comments on Blobel in an earlier post. End result: no bodies. The murder weapon, the homicidal gas chambers - see my comments in a previous post. Two homicidal gas chambers, and only two, are presented to the public. I linked to photos of the large unbarred windows in these rooms. Think about this, seriously. If you want to investigate the gassings, the bodies, the murder weapon, what have you got?
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Post by sevenup on Jul 23, 2011 12:04:54 GMT
Pop quiz --
1. Who said ....
"Keeping the People Passive & Obedient
"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate."
2. Who said ...
"The Holocaust was the most extreme atrocity in human history, and we lose our humanity if we are even willing to enter the arena of debate with those who seek to deny or underplay Nazi crimes."
"By entering into the arena of argument and counterargument, of technical feasibility and tactics, of footnotes and citations, by accepting the presumption of legitimacy of debate on certain issues, one has already lost one’s humanity."
Hint: the same person made both statements
3. Identify the irony when both statements are taken together.
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Post by toby on Jul 23, 2011 12:13:13 GMT
Liberator posted.:-Toby, I don't know whose rules of war you have been reading that allow rounding occupied non-belligerents up for retaliatory execution but they were probably written in Latin.
Toby comments.:- Try the Hague Convention articles 36+ 40.
It was pubished in Dutch then translated into English.
You would be surprised to learn that it is allowed to take reprisals for actions committed by Partisans, ( folk that fight without uniforms and not under a flag).
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Post by toby on Jul 23, 2011 12:25:49 GMT
sevenup posted.;-I did not just make a claim
Toby comments.:- I was not referring to you, but generally.
I think that most folk now accept that we were lied to regarding the actions of Germans during WW2 and the holocaust, and that there are laws passed that to deny the holocaust is a criminal offence, of course this stifles discussion which is what they are after.
What made me start querying wartime actions was when I learned that in 1947 there was a mass of construction in Auchwitz and the aim was to construct buildings which were later purported to have been built by the Germans and used for extermination.
Even today there is a large chimney standing all alone and rather forlorn that attracts the attention of passers-by, but built in 1947 and not by the Germans !
Why was this later building programme performed ?
The Soviets wanted something to bash the Germans with, simple as that
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Post by sevenup on Jul 25, 2011 11:56:19 GMT
Anna makes the point re: prisoners who died in Nazi camps - "But even if the cause of death was typhus they were kidnap victims and any US or European court would define their deaths as homicide, gassing or typhus."Is she correct? No, not by a mile. Consider, the US interred Japanese during WW II, and no doubt some died in the camps of disease or injury. The US had 'kidnapped' these people, placed them in camps, and they died. Is anyone suggesting that the US government, or the government officials involved, is guilty of kidnapping or homicide? No. Are they being taken to court and tried? It has never occurred to anyone. So, if the 'revisionist' narrative is correct, and the prisoners in the Nazi camps died of typhus or other diseases or accidents, then the Nazis are not guilty of ANY crimes, or at least not guilty of any crimes that the US did not commit. There is another point, no one would deny, I don't think, that the US is guilty of many crimes including murder at Abu Graib. And yet have any US officials, other than one hillbilly from WV, been prosecuted? I don't think so. Contrast that with the situation in Nazi Germany where crimes in the camps were very aggressively prosecuted. Here's a name you haven't heard - Konrad Morgen, the 'bloodhound judge' who prosecuted crime in the Nazi camps. The most famous case is that of Otto and IIlse Koch, Otto was the camp commandant at Buchenwald, and Ilse the 'bitch of Buchenwald'. Morgen investigated Otto for the deaths of three prisoners, and while there investigated rumors concerning Ilse. Ilse was exhonerated ..... Otto was hanged. Morgen conducted over 800 investigations in the camps. See wiki or .... www.holocaustresearchproject.org/trials/konradmorgen.html
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Post by june on Jul 25, 2011 16:53:19 GMT
You are definitely guilty of underplaying what happened at Buchenwald and to compare it to any US facility is incredulous. Let's see what Wiki has to say: According to SS documents, 33,462 died in Buchenwald. These documents were not, however, necessarily accurate: Among those executed before 1944 many were listed as "transferred to the Gestapo". Furthermore, from 1941 forward Soviet POWs were executed in mass killings. Arriving prisoners selected for execution were not entered into the camp register and therefore were not among the 33,462 dead listed in SS documents.[20] primary cause of death was illness due to harsh camp conditions, with starvation—and its consequent illnesses—prevalent. Malnourished and suffering from disease, many were literally "worked to death" under the Vernichtung durch Arbeit policy (extermination through labour), as inmates had only the choice between slave labour or inevitable execution. Many inmates died as a result of human experimentation or fell victim to arbitrary acts perpetrated by the SS guards. Other prisoners were simply murdered, primarily by shooting and hanging. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuchenwaldI struggle to find a modern concentration camp like that...
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Post by sevenup on Jul 25, 2011 17:52:33 GMT
You are definitely guilty of underplaying what happened at Buchenwald and to compare it to any US facility is incredulous. I think that I have demonstrated that the Nazis prosecuted crimes in the camps, particularly Buchenwald, where the commandant was tried and hanged for involvement in the deaths of three prisoners, whereas at Abu Graib there have been many deaths an no senior US official has been tried for any offense, much less convicted and hanged. There were many deaths is the Nazi camps because the Nazis lost the war. By the end of the war the conditions in the camps, particularly the camps in the west which were the last to fall and which had received many prisoners transferred from camps in the east, were so bad that many deaths resulted. The same thing happened in the US civil war, btw, at Andersonville prison in the south, with many prisoners dying of disease at the end of the war. Prison camps on the losing side become hells on earth, no question. And believe it or not the commander, Henry Wirz, was tried for killing prisoners and convicted and hung. The trial was a complete sham, you can read about it here .... www.factasy.com/civil_war/2008/05/20/trial_henry_wirzWirz was accused of killing prisoners, none of whom were named. This is often cited as the first 'war crimes trial'. The govts main witness was an imposter, etc., etc. The account above is interesting but not complete.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 25, 2011 18:00:41 GMT
Here's a name you haven't heard - Konrad Morgen, the 'bloodhound judge' who prosecuted crime in the Nazi camps. The most famous case is that of Otto and IIlse Koch, Otto was the camp commandant at Buchenwald, and Ilse the 'bitch of Buchenwald'. Morgen investigated Otto for the deaths of three prisoners, and while there investigated rumors concerning Ilse. Ilse was exhonerated ..... Otto was hanged. Morgen conducted over 800 investigations in the camps. See wiki or .... www.holocaustresearchproject.org/trials/konradmorgen.html Dearest Sevenup! The Commandant Koch story does seem like a contradiction. If there was a plan to murder the inmates of concentration camps then one would think the killer Otto Koch would be a welcome addition to the extermination plan. Instead the Germans investigated Koch's homicidal activities towards Buchenwald prisoners and had him tried, convicted and executed. This does raise questions! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Otto_Koch
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 25, 2011 18:20:43 GMT
Anna makes the point re: prisoners who died in Nazi camps - "But even if the cause of death was typhus they were kidnap victims and any US or European court would define their deaths as homicide, gassing or typhus."Is she correct? No, not by a mile. Consider, the US interred Japanese during WW II, and no doubt some died in the camps of disease or injury. The US had 'kidnapped' these people, placed them in camps, and they died. Is anyone suggesting that the US government, or the government officials involved, is guilty of kidnapping or homicide? No. Are they being taken to court and tried? It has never occurred to anyone. So, if the 'revisionist' narrative is correct, and the prisoners in the Nazi camps died of typhus or other diseases or accidents, then the Nazis are not guilty of ANY crimes, or at least not guilty of any crimes that the US did not commit. www.holocaustresearchproject.org/trials/konradmorgen.html A kidnapper is responsible for the health and well being of the kidnap victim/s! This is the law in virtually every country and should apply to war. We're not taking about POWs ( who are protected by the Geneva Convention ), but non-combattant civilians! So any deaths resulting during the course of the illegal kidnapping are homicides!
True the Japanese civilians residing in the US were also illegally kidnapped into "internment camps". As far as I know there was no "slave labor", no epidemics, and no atrocity claims, etc. . But this so called internment or kidnapping should be investigated and made more public!
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 25, 2011 18:48:03 GMT
Dearest Sevenup, Surely you wouldn't deny the mass killing in Lidice of innocent Czechs by the nazis?
I do admit having reservations about this term "holocaust-denial". If someone believes the numbers of the alledged victims of Stalin or Mao were much less then there were still victims. This would still constitute a mass killing/murder or a "holocaust", if one prefers to use that term.. There is no logical reason that the term holocaust should only apply to nazi crimes.
It's been estimated that 20,000,000 Native Americans were killed during the colonisation of America.
Also estimates of around 5,160,000 Irish killed under the English oppression! They were allowed to starve like the Ukranians under Stalin for the most part. www.irishholocaust.org/tollofholocaust.
"Holocaust denial" is claiming that there were no victims. David Irving and the Bishop admit that there were many many victims so I think the term holocaust denial is an inaccurate media term.
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