♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Apr 20, 2010 18:15:32 GMT
www.jta.org/news/article/2010/04/18/1011630/bishop-to-appeal-holocaust-denial-fine QUOTE: Bishop to appeal Holocaust denial fine April 18, 2010 BERLIN (JTA) – A Catholic bishop from a breakaway sect will appeal his fine for Holocaust denial. Richard Williamson of the Society of Saint Pius X was found guilty last Friday of Holocaust denial in a German district court. The Regensburg court upheld a fine of $22,473 imposed in 2009. The German television station ARD reported that Williamson's lawyer, Matthias Lossmann, left it open as to whether the appeal would be based on errors in the proceedings or new evidence. The Pius society banned Williamson from speaking at his trial. He was not required by law to be present. Williamson, who is British and lives in London, was fined in connection with an interview in Regensburg in late 2008 with the Swedish SVT broadcaster in which he called the murder of Jews in gas chambers during the Holocaust "lies, lies, lies." He also allegedly denied that any Jews were murdered in gas chambers during the Holocaust, and insisted that not more than 300,000 European Jews were killed in all. Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany. ARD also reported on connections between the Pius society and the far-right scene in Germany. Williamson is one of four bishops rehabilitated by Pope Benedict XVI in January 2009 in hopes of healing a rift between conservative and progressive Catholics.
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Post by lonewolf on Apr 21, 2010 5:46:51 GMT
Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany. Yes, it is and I find that far more frightening than Holocaust denial.
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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karma:
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 12, 2011 23:27:14 GMT
www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/german-appeals-court-upholds-conviction-of-british-bishop-for-holocaust-denial/2011/07/11/gIQAVTdi8H_story.html QUOTE: German appeals court upholds conviction of British bishop for Holocaust denialBy Associated Press, Published: July 11 BERLIN — An appeals court on Monday upheld the conviction of a British bishop who denied the Holocaust in an interview with a Swedish TV station that was rebroadcast over the Internet in Germany. The Regensburg court on Monday confirmed last year’s incitement conviction of Bishop Richard Williamson, though it lowered his punishment to a fine of €6,500 ($9,136) from the original €10,000, according to DAPD news agency. Judge Birgit Eisvogel said the fine was reduced to reflect Williamson’s financial circumstances. The bishop did not attend Monday’s ruling, and his defense team said it would file a new appeal. Williamson’s attorney had argued that the bishop was asked leading questions by Swedish station SVT and that he did not think the comments would be seen in Germany. The 71-year-old said in the 2008 interview that he did not believe Jews were killed in gas chambers during World War II. Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany. Williamson is a member of the ultraconservative Society of St. Pius X. He and others from the society were excommunicated in 1988 after they were consecrated without papal consent. Bishop Bernard Fellay, head of the Society of St. Pius X, has distanced his organization from Williamson since the interview aired on Jan. 21, 2009, and ordered him to keep quiet. The same day the interview aired, Pope Benedict XVI lifted Williamson’s excommunication, unleashing a torrent of criticism and threatening the Vatican’s relations with Jews. Benedict has since said that had he known of Williamson’s views, he wouldn’t have rehabilitated him at the time.
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Post by alanseago on Jul 13, 2011 12:44:40 GMT
... in the many of the countries of the Middle East, Christians and Muslims have lived together in peace for centuries because of the force of things. Each recognized that he would not convert the other, therefore we lived together."""" what a load of tosh I have seen Jews, Muslims, Christians and an atheist (me) working side by side in Tel Aviv. There is a beautiful Christian church in Kuwait. I installed a printing press at the Koran printing press in Saudi where the entire engineering/maintenance crew were christians, mainly Indians. The same can be found around the world but that is not news.
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Post by toby on Jul 15, 2011 11:48:01 GMT
jumbo posted.:-if the church was real, trash like this wouldn't be a bishop to begin with
Toby comments.:- If God were real then surely he would not have allowed the Jews to be gassed in the first place ?
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Post by toby on Jul 15, 2011 12:02:09 GMT
Toby comments.:- I don't mind people professing to worship some being they usually call God or a variation thereof, but sooner or later you will always get somebody saying, 'my God is better than your God', then they start doing things using their God as an excuse to harm others while the rest of the believers in their God applaud what's going on because belief in God makes it OK.
I have an enormous Pantheon of Deities, a few are .:- the Sun, the $US, Swedish Girls, Fujisan, Gatzweilers Altbier, etc I would never try to force my beliefs upon anybody, they are fore myself alone.
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Post by toby on Jul 19, 2011 10:39:37 GMT
IAJ posted.:-300,000 Jews died in concentration camps, not the six million universally recognized.
Toby comments.;- This is probably an accurate figure of Jewish Deaths in Concentration Camps.
However consider that the industrial production-line Gassing was done in Extermination Camps, the figure would be about four (4) Million and indeed up to the 1970's the Jewish Survivors Organisations had the figure at four and a half Million Jews died at the hands of the Nazis, it was only later that the figure of six Million Jews was propagated. Nobody knows where the extra one and a half million came from and even today it is this uncertainty that leads some folk to doubt the number of jewish victims.
Bishop Williamson is as mad as a box of frogs and Kolonel Ratzinger should have had him sorted out years ago !!
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 19, 2011 21:18:09 GMT
IAJ posted.:-300,000 Jews died in concentration camps, not the six million universally recognized. Toby comments.;- This is probably an accurate figure of Jewish Deaths in Concentration Camps. However consider that the industrial production-line Gassing was done in Extermination Camps, the figure would be about four (4) Million and indeed up to the 1970's the Jewish Survivors Organisations had the figure at four and a half Million Jews died at the hands of the Nazis, it was only later that the figure of six Million Jews was propagated. Nobody knows where the extra one and a half million came from and even today it is this uncertainty that leads some folk to doubt the number of jewish victims. Bishop Williamson is as mad as a box of frogs and Kolonel Ratzinger should have had him sorted out years ago !! According to a secret SS memo dated 1943, by that time 2.4 million Jews had been "liquidated." This document was produced by an SS officer called Korherr. You can find it mentioned in Benno Mueller-Hill's book "Murderous Science." My Dad's best friend is also a historian of the period and author of a prizewinning biography of Hitler. He too believes that the true figure of Jewish deaths is around 4.5 million.
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Post by june on Jul 19, 2011 21:33:37 GMT
I find it offensive that people quibble about the number of deaths as if somehow saying it was ONLY 300,00 makes it more acceptable.
These were people, killed at government instigation - does the numer matter?
Sick people.
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 20, 2011 16:00:39 GMT
I find it offensive that people quibble about the number of deaths as if somehow saying it was ONLY 300,00 makes it more acceptable. These were people, killed at government instigation - does the numer matter? Sick people. So do I, June. I was just posting some statistics, that's all. For what it's worth I don't think the plight of my own people is lessened whether it's 25,-000 or 800,000 Romanies who were murdered. I know my second cousin (sadly no longer alive) escaped from Auschwitz where his parents, brother and sister were murdered. He told me many things about that terrible time. The sad fact is that a government instituted a programme of genocide against people it considered undesirable. OK, they weren't the first or the last. It's still totally despicable and indefensible.
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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karma:
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 20, 2011 18:59:44 GMT
I find it offensive that people quibble about the number of deaths as if somehow saying it was ONLY 300,00 makes it more acceptable. These were people, killed at government instigation - does the numer matter? Sick people. I agree with the moral aspect that lesser numbers doesn't mean less wrong!
Still history should be more like archeology. We should be able to get accurate numbers for say the casualities of the battle of Gettysburg, Okinawa, the San Francisco earthquake, the Spanish inquistion, etc. etc.
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Post by Liberator on Jul 21, 2011 3:05:29 GMT
So what the hell does the old bugger think happened to these people?
It's a willful concentration on one specific issue that distracts from the more general crimes against humanity that nobody denies occurred whether compounded by death camps or not. There never was any intention to murder millions just because of who they were - apart from anything else, it was a waste of resources. Had there never been a war, there probably would have been no extermination camps. They came late, the name itself of Endloesung with a sort of broader meaning than Final Solution, overtones of ultimate fix, shows that it was something of a panic measure and a lot of that panic was to destroy the evidence as they were losing, so they could make approaches about terms maybe if they ditched Hitler. There's even been a suggestion that the holocaust should be seen as literally that in the old sense, that by that time they were so embroiled in their own crazy occult cult that they imagined removing the inferior taint would magically solve their problems.
It really doesn't matter because they were already up to their eyeballs in slavery and arbitrary murder on a scale unseen since Ancient Rome and even if they imagined pulling some technicality about no real laws against it because nobody had ever imagined they would be necessary, they were caught by the Geneva Conventions that those slaves included Slavic and Jewish POWs.
What has happened is that the various kinds of camp have been confused and some camps found themselves isolated from supplies, so inmates starved. That again violates humanitarian conventions that existed at the time requiring at the least Red Cross intervention, more usually abandoning those camps to the Allies, even under safe conduct to Axis lines. This issue of isolation is one that I think David Irving likes to play up but it still is no excuse.
Fact is that if there were no extermination camps at all it would not make the slightest difference to the use of slave labour and inhuman conditions for people with no justification whatsoever except their ancestry or political or sexual attitudes. It amounts to the indignation of being accused of murder when 'all' that was intended was torture.
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 21, 2011 3:23:07 GMT
Fact is that if there were no extermination camps at all it would not make the slightest difference to the use of slave labour and inhuman conditions for people with no justification whatsoever except their ancestry or political or sexual attitudes. Quite right Liberator! I'm sure the Bishop wouldn't deny that these people were kidnapped and misused as slaves.
When only one person is murdered it's one too many!
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Post by Liberator on Jul 21, 2011 4:32:15 GMT
All my grandmother's brothers stayed home during the Occupation and they saw slave labour at first hand for the aptly named Organisation Todt (Tod and Tot pronounced alike in German mean Death and Dead respectively - it happens it was a Doktor Todt who founded the partly-slave construction force). The father of one of my brother's friends volunteered for it to get out of a Spanish concentration camp, hoping to defect to the French Resistance and was interred for a time as a Nazi sympathiser.
These quibbles and pretences by people who were not there, that millions of people are lying or deluded about what they saw make me livid. It's not as if anybody seriously questions later atrocities like Pol Pot, the Serbo-Croat massacres in the 90s and the despicable Burmese regime, or even China and Stalin.
We knew who sheltered Russian slaves - and who sold them.
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Post by sevenup on Jul 21, 2011 15:44:47 GMT
Hi Anna, I like the tone of your comments. I not only believe that Bishop Williamson has a right to express his opinions on WW II history and the Jews without fear of legal persecution, I also believe that everything he said in the video is correct. There is considerable information now available as to what did happen in Auschwitz. When the camp was liberated by the Soviets they captured the Nazi documents. They hid these documents and claimed that 4,000,000 persons had died there. A stone plaque was placed at the entrance of the camp stating that 4 million had perished there. In 1980(?) they releases most of the captured documents (probably what they hadn't lost). The Nazis wrote death certificates for every prisoner that died and summarized the deaths in Death Books. You can read about them here ... en.auschwitz.org.pl/m/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=109&Itemid=8As you can see, according to the records, about 70,000 persons died at Auschwitz for the period of the records, and more Roman Catholics died than Jews. Historians have extrapolated the data in the records to get a total number of deaths in the camp on the order of 100,000 to 150,000. When the Soviets released the records, they removed the stone plaque and replaced it with one claiming that 1,500,000 had died at Auschwitz. What is the rational for the change from 4,000,000 to 1,500,000? None given. What is the rational for the figure of 1,500,000 as opposed to the 100,000 to 150,000 indicated by the records? None given. The 1,500,000 number is not speculation, it is pure fiction. There is no more justification for it than the original 4,000,000. There is a lot more to say about Auschwitz, but this should get you to thinking that a little study is in order.
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 21, 2011 17:00:12 GMT
In the first place, welcome to the board, Sevenup!
(That's a nice drink!)
In the first place an SS document produced by Korherr in 1943 states specifically that 2.4 million Jews had been liquidated.
Secondly, people tend to forget that it wasn't only the gas chambers that were responsible for the mass killings.
The mobile lorries where people were packed inside and gassed with carbon monoxide accounted for considerable numbers.
Most, though, were random murders, generally shootings, by troops and SS members on the ground.
There are also some surprising aspects of the whole Holocaust/Porajmos debacle.
When he was first instructed by Hitler to prepare the Final Solution, Himmler wept.
When Himmler told Heydrich, Heydrich exploded in rage.
The first murders actually happened in an unauthorised fashion during the Nazi advance into Russia. Individual units of SS shot dead Jews and Communists and when some Wehrmacht officers tried to intervene to stop them the matter was referred back to Berlin.
That was when Hitler officially authorised genocide.
For what it's worth, David Irving (of all people) discovered a WRITTEN order for the Endlosung signed by Hitler.
By contrast, the persecution of the Roma and Sinti was carried out at the urgings of a lunatic called Robert Ritter.
Rudolf Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz, claimed that he had liquidated a million people within his camp.
My relatives were among them, though for their Romani blood rather than any Jewish bloodline.
Genocide, like murder generally, is something that all decent people condemn utterly.
It doesn't matter a damn if it's Jews, gypsies, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus, or rival tribes (as happens a lot in Africa).
It's wrong and has to be condemned.
I don't much care if the true numbers are lower than the official figure.
As the German poet Erich Fried wrote sarcastically "Who bids lower?"
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Post by sevenup on Jul 21, 2011 17:33:38 GMT
We've seen that the captured Nazi documents indicate that on the order of 100,000 people died at Auschwitz. The Auschwitz museum web site refers to Jews that were transported to Auschwitz and went straight to the gas chambers and whose deaths were not recorded. What is the evidence for this is given on the page? Why, none whatever. Perhaps it is pure fantasy. Consider first that the Jews claimed that there was a 'murderous and systematic extermination" of "six million" Jews in Russia in 1906 ! This was announced in the New York Times... exposing-the-holocaust-hoax-archive.blogspot.com/2010/01/ny-times-reports-in-1906-that-russias.htmlThen, there is the book "The First Holocaust, Jewish Fund Raising Campaigns with Holocaust Claims During World War One". Well, Heddesheimer was wrong about the WW I holocaust being the first, as he missed the 1906 one, but his book is documented with numerous reprints of articles from the New York Times written during WW One. So, perhaps a little skepticism is in order regarding claims of a Jewish holocaust, especially if there is no evidence presented. It is also worth noting that all of us have seen what was presented as evidence of the holocaust, but this evidence on a moment's inspection turns out to be fraudulent. I'm referring to the pictures of the piles of dead and dying prisoners stacked into huge piles, and even being bulldozed into mass graves. For example, Oprah Winfrey not to long ago had a special with Elie Wiesel and the opening scene showed them going to visit Auschwitz, and the pictures of the piles of bodies presented, while the narrator described the Nazis' systematic extermination of the Jews. The pictures were not taken at Auschwitz, they were not taken during the war, and they were not taken by the Nazis. They were taken at two camps primarily, Belsen and Dachau. The Russians had taken the eastern camps, and prisoners evacuated to camps in the west including Belsen and Dachau. There was a huge typhus epidemic, at Belsen killing 35,000 prisoners at the end of the war and after. The photos were taken after the wars end and showed prisoners who had died of disease. There was no attempt at all to kill these prisoners. Had there been, they would not have been alive at the end of the war. Instead overcrowding, lack of food and medicine, and a complete breakdown of the camp facilities led to the epidemic that killed the prisoners. You can read about it here ... www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-11-19-holocaust-papers_x.htmThe correspondence of the camp commander, who did everything in his power to prevent the catastrophe that enveloped the camp, was captured and can be seen here .. www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Belsen/Kramer010345.htmlWhy would the media present these pictures as evidence of a Nazi program to exterminate Jews, even today.
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Post by sadie1263 on Jul 21, 2011 19:32:30 GMT
I just don't know that I would trust any documents. We have no idea for what or for whom they were written. There could definitely be an agenda.
I think I would have to go by some of the stories from the people that were in the camps and those are pretty bad.
No matter what the number.....it was horrific and wrong.
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 21, 2011 22:39:57 GMT
Look, Sevenup, my second cousin, who I knew from when I was a small girl thirty-three years ago till hid death a fe years ago, lost his parents, brother and sister in Auschwitz.
Hoess, the camp commandant, claimed that he had exterminated one million Jews.
I've already bent over backwards to try and be fair to the Nazis which God knows is incredibly hard for me to do.
IMO Nazis had some good ideas that got badly derailed because of their preference for brutality over persuasion and because of the ridiculous racist nonsense that led them to go in for genocide.
What abput the points I raised - the carbon monoxide lorries? The mass graves where victims where shot in cold blood after being stripped naked?
Are you denying that the Holocaust/Porajmos happened?
Or do you simply think that trying to round the numbers down makes the crime any less brutal, horrific and unjustified?
Like Erich Fried said, "who bids lower?"
Do you believe that you know better than Hoess, the camp commandant of Auschwitz, the very camp my second cousin's family met their deaths, how many people he killed?
Do you believe you know better than SS officer Korherr who wrote, in a secret but official document, that 2.4 million Jews had been "liquidated?"
And why do you think that murdering a hundred people is any better than murdering millions?
Do you think Harold Shipman or Richard Ramirez shouldn't be condemned because they didn't murder milllions but only in double and single figures?
Is that what you think?
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Post by sevenup on Jul 21, 2011 23:08:32 GMT
Hi Big Lin, What I believe is that there are two narratives of what happened to the Jews in WW II. The standard narrative says that the Nazis attempted to exterminate all the Jews and murdered six million, most in gas chambers. The 'revisionist' narrative states that the Nazis tried to deport the Jews, and when that became impossible put them in camps and transferred many to the east. As they lost the war their plans went awry, but they never killed any Jews for being Jews. I believe the 'revisionist' narrative is accurate. I've studied Hoess a bit. Would it surprise you to learn that his 'confession' came after he was tortured? Would it surprise you to learn that he confessed to gassing TWO million Jews and killing another half million (see link below). Would it surprise you to learn that he was not tried at Nuremberg, but testified as a DEFENSE witness? It surprised me. www.scrapbookpages.com/auschwitzscrapbook/history/articles/DeathStatistics.htmlWould it surprise you to learn that Elie Wiesel, Otto Frank, and Primo Levi, probably the three most famous holocaust survivors, were all in Auschwitz when the Soviet army approached? Do you know where they were? In the camp hospital. Wiesel was being treated for a foot injury and Frank and Levi for infections, probably typhus. Would it surprise you to learn that the Nazis gave the prisoners in the hospital who were able to travel the option of awaiting the Soviet army or of evacuating? Would it surprise you to learn that Wiesel, and his aged father, chose to leave with the Nazis? Read 'Night' where he tells the story. Would it surprise you to learn that in Wiesel's book about his experience at Auschwitz, 'Night', he never once mentions gas chambers? The questions are really just something to think about. Each one of them is based on a fact that is totally incompatible with the standard narrative of the holocaust and perfectly compatible with the 'revisionist' narrative.
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