♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 22, 2011 2:37:57 GMT
Hi Anna, I like the tone of your comments. I not only believe that Bishop Williamson has a right to express his opinions on WW II history and the Jews without fear of legal persecution, I also believe that everything he said in the video is correct. There is considerable information now available as to what did happen in Auschwitz. When the camp was liberated by the Soviets they captured the Nazi documents. They hid these documents and claimed that 4,000,000 persons had died there. A stone plaque was placed at the entrance of the camp stating that 4 million had perished there. In 1980(?) they releases most of the captured documents (probably what they hadn't lost). The Nazis wrote death certificates for every prisoner that died and summarized the deaths in Death Books. You can read about them here ... en.auschwitz.org.pl/m/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=109&Itemid=8As you can see, according to the records, about 70,000 persons died at Auschwitz for the period of the records, and more Roman Catholics died than Jews. Historians have extrapolated the data in the records to get a total number of deaths in the camp on the order of 100,000 to 150,000. When the Soviets released the records, they removed the stone plaque and replaced it with one claiming that 1,500,000 had died at Auschwitz. What is the rational for the change from 4,000,000 to 1,500,000? None given. What is the rational for the figure of 1,500,000 as opposed to the 100,000 to 150,000 indicated by the records? None given. The 1,500,000 number is not speculation, it is pure fiction. There is no more justification for it than the original 4,000,000. There is a lot more to say about Auschwitz, but this should get you to thinking that a little study is in order. Hi Sevenup! I grew up believing that the nazis turned people into soap or made lampshades out of their skin. A lot of these claims have been dropped.
The book "The Commandant of Auschwitz" was required reading in German schools and I didn't doubt the confession of Hoess at the time. This book has fallen into oblivion, after it was revealed that Hoess was tortured naked 3 days and another 3 days were neccesary to get a coherent statement out of him. I also viewed a number of David Cole's visit to Auschwitz videos on YouTube. Mr. Cole ( a Jew ) makes an impressive case for doubting the standard version of history, in respect to Auschwitz. No one is answering the questions he poses- except for a few admissions by the Auschwitz museum director, Mr. Piper.
Still even if the Bishop's claim or belief that "only" 250,000 or so kidnapped victims and slave laborers were murdered or died of typhus and neglect in all the concentration camps that's still about 5 large sport stadiums full of people. It can't be excused!
Then there were the mass executions near Kiev after the nazis occupied that city, which David Irving himself confirms! Also the special units ( Einsatzgruppen ) of the SS, who rounded up and shot countless innocent people to alledgedly retaliate for partisan activity..
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Post by sevenup on Jul 22, 2011 3:58:17 GMT
Hi Sevenup!
Then there were the mass executions near Kiev after the nazis occupied that city, which David Irving himself confirms! Also the special units ( Einsatzgruppen ) of the SS, who rounded up and shot countless innocent people to alledgedly retaliate for partisan activity.. Let me suggest that before we start excusing or not excusing, we try to separate the myth from the reality. Here is really good example of what I mean - Deborah Lipstadt is one of the most respected holocaust historians, and she reveals that the five million number for the non-Jewish victims of the holocaust, the Gypsies, the homosexuals, etc., was made up out of thin air by Simon Wiesenthal. Here's a quote and the link .. "He admitted that he had invented the figure of eleven million victims in order to stimulate interest in the Holocaust among non-Jews. He chose five million because it was almost, but not quite, as large as six million."groups.yahoo.com/group/ReportersNotebook/message/5556If that number was made up out of nothing, how much of the holocaust is real? How much was made up out of exactly nothing? Do we know? Now, as for the Kiev massacre, which supposedly happened at Babi Yar, there are a few problems with that story too. First, the Nazis supposedly killed 300,000, 100,000, or 30,000. Let's take the smaller figure, the victims were supposedly shot. So, 30,000 dead bodies, 30,000 to 60,000 bullets, where are they? Not to be found. There have been no excavations at Babi Yar and there will be none. Now, there are a couple of twists to this tale. To account for the lack of physical evidence of the Babi Yar massacre, the standard narrative is that the Nazis first buried the bodies, and then at a later time came back, exhumed the bodies, and burned them. In charge of this operation, and also responsible for burning all the evidence of the massacres on the eastern front, was one Paul Blobel, and Nazi officer who had been relieved of his duties for drunkenness, and was called back to clean up the evidence of the mass executions. Blobel, like Hoess, confessed, you can read his confession .... let's find a link ... actually he confessed twice, the first didn't sound too convincing so he confessed again, the second confession ....here is part of it ... and a link ... “I myself witnessed the burning of corpses in a mass grave near Kiev during my visit in August 1943. This grave was about 55 meters long, 3 metres wide and 2 and half meters deep. When the cover had been lifted, the bodies were covered with fuel and set on fire. It took about two days for the grave to burn down. I myself saw that the grave became red-hot right down to the ground. Afterwards the grave was filled in, and thus all traces were as good as eliminated. Owing to the approach of the front, it was not possible to destroy the mass graves further to the south and the east, resulting from the executions of the Einsatzgruppen." www.holocaustresearchproject.org/einsatz/blobel.htmlNow, if it happened as Blobel described, the grave with ashes and bones would still be there. Is it? No. But, it gets better. The Soviet NKVD did massacre a number of Ukrainians at Vinnitsa, about 100km from Ukraine. The Nazis did find these graves and excavated them in the summer of 1943. They invited an international team of forensic experts to assist in identifying the bodies. You can read about it here .... rainbowwarrior2005.wordpress.com/2009/12/22/suppressed-history-the-genocide-at-vinnitsa/So, while the Nazis were supposedly burning the bodies at Babi Yar, they were simultaneously, 100km away, inviting an international forensics team to investigate an excavated mass grave of NKVD victims at Vinnitsa. This does not ring true. In short, the lack of physical evidence is not consistent with a massacre at Babi Yar, Paul Blobel's confession notwithstanding.
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Post by Liberator on Jul 22, 2011 4:53:07 GMT
All the unaccounted for missing Jews, Romany, Homosexuals and Socialists were transported to Planet Epsilon Eridani Four through the secret treaty the Nazis made with aliens that the USA inherited and continues to operate to this day.
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 22, 2011 5:07:44 GMT
Well sevenup! It's way past my bed time here! I can't follow up on all your arguments and am at best an amateur historian. Stalin once cynically said "One death is a tragedy, but a million is a statistic." There are people of all ethniticies, who wonder what their relatives or specific loved one suffered through in WW2. I hope we can find some closure for them.
I'm glad the Arolsen archives are becoming more accesible and I hope a lot of individual destinies in the nazi concentration camps will be made public.
Naziism or National Socialism was an attempt to reinvent the Roman empire! Ironic! Germany's greatest oppressor historically brought a hated system to be emulated by the so called National Socialists!! An Austrian artist's interpretation of Darwinism and the cult to the goddess Aphrodite played a role too. Even if Hitler was victorious militarily this system would have collapsed like the victorious Franco regime, Mao, Stalin, etc. These movements just disappear for the large part. They last a generation at the most and no longer!
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Post by sevenup on Jul 22, 2011 11:39:41 GMT
Naziism or National Socialism was an attempt to reinvent the Roman empire! Ironic! Germany's greatest oppressor historically brought a hated system to be emulated by the so called National Socialists!! An Austrian artist's interpretation of Darwinism and the cult to the goddess Aphrodite played a role too. Even if Hitler was victorious militarily this system would have collapsed like the victorious Franco regime, Mao, Stalin, etc. These movements just disappear for the large part. They last a generation at the most and no longer!
Hey, it was past my bedtime too when I wrote that last post. But I've gotta disagree with you here. I see WW II as a conflict between imperial powers, one that ruled the world, and one that wanted to expand to the east and at the same time protect itself from the most bloodthirsty govt. the world had seen to that time, communist Russia. Hitler writes about all this in Mein Kampf. His aims were very limited, the 'rule the world' stuff is pure fiction. He explicitly did not want an worldwide imperial empire as per Britain. And, I think there was a crucial lesson to be learned from WW II, and it has nothing to do with the Nazis or the Jews. The lesson is that technology has put civilization, if not the entire human race, at risk. However the lesson that was leaned was the false lesson that is learned in every war, that 'good triumphs over evil'. Think about this. You actually believe this. Everyone does. It is not true, it was not true in WW II. You think that the 'evil' regimes are gone. Nope. The US and Russia immediately after the war set out to build a doomsday machine which has put the entire planet at risk of extinction in the next 24 hour period. This is the most wicked, evil, disastrous, thing, by a factor of 10,000, that has ever happened to the human race. And you're congratulating yourself that we conquered evil in WW II. Yes? No? It's people like me (ex DoD projects engineer) that, if anyone ever pushes the button, will be correctly viewed as the worst villains in history, again, by a factor of 10,000, if there is anyone left to consider the issue.
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Post by toby on Jul 22, 2011 14:45:36 GMT
june posted.:-I find it offensive that people quibble about the number of deaths as if somehow saying it was ONLY 300,00 makes it more acceptable.
Toby comments.:- I find it very, very, very, offensive that the Jews raised the victims numbers by one and a half Million for some reason to which I am not privy !
It is precisely because of the continual juggling with the victims numbers that there are more and more holocaust doubters. Also, the fact that parts of Auchwitz were constructed in 1947 also does not help the victims case either even though the construction work was done in good faith !
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Post by toby on Jul 22, 2011 14:49:43 GMT
Lin posted.:-The sad fact is that a government instituted a programme of genocide against people it considered undesirable.
Toby comments.:- Chairman Mao allowed 23 Million Chinese to starve to Death during the 1970's. Nobody ever seems to bother about this though.
Stalin allowed 7 Million Ukranians to starve to Death in 1937. Nobody ever seems to bother about this though.
If the truth be told, we are soon desensitized against the suffering of others, it was always so !
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Post by toby on Jul 22, 2011 15:02:55 GMT
anna posted.:-Also the special units ( Einsatzgruppen ) of the SS, who rounded up and shot countless innocent people to alledgedly retaliate for partisan activity..
Toby comments.:- Under the rules of warfare, this is allowed !
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Post by sadie1263 on Jul 22, 2011 16:05:25 GMT
I'm not sure where this argument is going.
The fact is......atrocities happen all the time! Why does the number of people matter. Is 100 a tragedy, 1000, 1 million? There is no doubt that people were taken against their will and put into camps where a majority died. Whether this was for religious, ethnic or for whatever reason....it was wrong. Are some numbers blown out of proportion....probably. Are some numbers purposely hidden this many years later to try and protect or distort history and some people's/countries acts in them......probably.
To try and deny it now because someone wasn't keeping an accurate count is ludicrous.
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Post by Liberator on Jul 22, 2011 17:42:57 GMT
"One death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic" - Stalin. The fact is though that wholesale enslavement and ethnic cleansing organized on the Nazi scale did not come again until Pol Pot, and just how organized that was remains unknown.
Toby, I don't know whose rules of war you have been reading that allow rounding occupied non-belligerents up for retaliatory execution but they were probably written in Latin.
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Post by june on Jul 22, 2011 19:09:15 GMT
Toby comments.:- I find it very, very, very, offensive that the Jews raised the victims numbers by one and a half Million for some reason to which I am not privy ! It is precisely because of the continual juggling with the victims numbers that there are more and more holocaust doubters. Also, the fact that parts of Auchwitz were constructed in 1947 also does not help the victims case either even though the construction work was done in good faith ! If you find that offensive then you are beyond any help i can advise.
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Post by june on Jul 22, 2011 19:10:19 GMT
I'm not sure where this argument is going. The fact is......atrocities happen all the time! Why does the number of people matter. Is 100 a tragedy, 1000, 1 million? There is no doubt that people were taken against their will and put into camps where a majority died. Whether this was for religious, ethnic or for whatever reason....it was wrong. Are some numbers blown out of proportion....probably. Are some numbers purposely hidden this many years later to try and protect or distort history and some people's/countries acts in them......probably. To try and deny it now because someone wasn't keeping an accurate count is ludicrous. Oh but Sadie - no one can agree on the numbers therefore we must not castigate those poor misunderstood Nazi's.....
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Post by sevenup on Jul 22, 2011 21:18:36 GMT
Oh but Sadie - no one can agree on the numbers therefore we must not castigate those poor misunderstood Nazi's..... It's not just a matter of numbers. In particular, Bishop Williamson said that the gas chambers are a fabrication. Well, are they? Did the Nazis really kill Jews, or anyone else, in gas chambers? Background - here is something you probably don't know if you haven't studied the holocaust a bit - typhus was a big killer in WW I and WW II, and it was particularly a problem in the camps. Typhus is spread by lice. If you read the article I linked earlier on Bad Arolsen you'll see that the Nazis deloused prisoners by plucking the lice from their hair, and they recorded the number and sizes of the lice ! The main way they combated lice was with Zyklon, a commercial insecticide that came in a small can of pellets, these pellets when exposed to air would out-gas cyanide that killed the lice. They used them two ways - to delouse a building they tossed the pellets around and closed the building. They also had specially designed fumigation rooms and special machinery to heat the pellets, distribute the gas, and finally exhaust the gas, they fumigated clothing in these rooms. There is a building at Auschwitz containing many fumigation rooms. This building is not shown to tourists. Here is a picture of the fumigation equipment ... www.flickr.com/photos/18101207@N00/5032508048/None of this is disputed. No one claims the fumigation rooms (at Auschwitz) were used to kill Jews, they are too small. You might ask yourself why you have never heard of these rooms and why they are not shown to visitors at Auschwitz. Now let's look at the physical evidence of 'homicidal gas chambers'. There are now two gas chambers in existence, one at Auschwitz and one at Majdanek. Both are shown to visitors everyday. You can see a photo of the Auschwitz gas chamber here ... www.historiography-project.org/misc/doors.htmlYou can see that it has unsealed wooden doors, one with a large plate glass window. This room cannot have been a gas chamber, yet it is shown to visitors everyday and no one objects. Toby noted that this gas chamber was 'reconstructed' after the war by the Soviets. He says the 'reconstruction' was in good faith, but it wasn't. The room was presented as being in it's original state until the reconstruction was revealed to the world by David Cole in a video that can be seen online today, here .... www.vho.org/GB/c/DC/gcgvcole.htmlAnna referenced this video earlier. It was an important turning point in my understanding of the holocaust. The second gas chamber shown to visitors is at Majdanek, it can be seen here ... furtherglory.wordpress.com/2010/04/15/glass-window-in-majdanek-gas-chamber/Note the window. The Nazis did not construct a 'homicidal gas chamber' and put a window in it. The room is actually a fumigation room where Zyklon was used to fumigate clothing. The fittings for equipment as shown above are still in the walls of the room. The original estimates of the numbers killed at Majdanek were on the order of 1,500,000, they were revised downward to a few hundred thousand that that estimate was used for a long time. Now the official estimate is approx. 70,000 which is close to the revisionist estimate. So, reviewing the physical evidence, there is no physical evidence of gas chambers, but, more than that, there are two rooms that are fraudulently presented as 'homicidal gas chambers'. The homicidal gas chambers were a fabrication of wartime propaganda. They never existed in reality. The Nazis did not gas a single Jew. The David Cole video linked above was shown on college campuses by Cole and Bradley Smith. Smith is still trying to convince college students to question the holocaust, and he recently challenged the academic community to give the name of a single person gassed at Auschwitz, along with proof of that claim. Not one academic has answered the challenge or the question.
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Post by june on Jul 22, 2011 21:39:53 GMT
Oh but Sadie - no one can agree on the numbers therefore we must not castigate those poor misunderstood Nazi's..... So, reviewing the physical evidence, there is no physical evidence of gas chambers, but, more than that, there are two rooms that are fraudulently presented as 'homicidal gas chambers'. The homicidal gas chambers were a fabrication of wartime propaganda. They never existed in reality. The Nazis did not gas a single Jew. Ah your post is enlightening but, not in the way you hope. I see you are a holocaust denier. Why do you want to underplay Nazi crimes? Are you a Neo Nazi or Jew hater? I am happy to trust the evidence of the time, the photograps and testimonies from Nazi's and Allies. The census records, the trace evidence at the camps etc. You know, real stuff.
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 22, 2011 22:48:45 GMT
I know for a fact that it happened. I've met survivors of the Holocaust and Porajmos.
Arguing about the numbers, however distasteful, is one thing.
Denying it happened is another.
Read my announcement today about Proboards Terms of Service, section 18.
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Post by sevenup on Jul 23, 2011 0:36:33 GMT
So, reviewing the physical evidence, there is no physical evidence of gas chambers, but, more than that, there are two rooms that are fraudulently presented as 'homicidal gas chambers'. The homicidal gas chambers were a fabrication of wartime propaganda. They never existed in reality. The Nazis did not gas a single Jew. Ah your post is enlightening but, not in the way you hope. I see you are a holocaust denier. Why do you want to underplay Nazi crimes? Are you a Neo Nazi or Jew hater? I am happy to trust the evidence of the time, the photograps and testimonies from Nazi's and Allies. The census records, the trace evidence at the camps etc. You know, real stuff. June, your post is also enlightening, but not in the way you hope. Whether or not you agree with my previous post, I think you can see that I did my best to present a convincing argument that the gas chambers did not exist, or at least enough information to provoke some discussion on the subject, and I did present evidence in the form of photos to document my claims. You did not address any of the arguments I made, or make any of your own, instead you started calling me names. Name calling in a standard tactic of persons who want to prevent any critical examination of the holocaust. It's all part of a spectrum, derail the discussion with name calling, ban the discussion, and if all else fails, lock up or fine the person doing the discussing, e.g. Bishop Williamson. I believe the holocaust is the only historical narrative that is defended with these tactics. Can you think of another?
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Post by sevenup on Jul 23, 2011 0:44:29 GMT
I know for a fact that it happened. I've met survivors of the Holocaust and Porajmos. I hate to be the one to tell you, but this is not a convincing argument. Perhaps if you could flesh it out a bit, who were these people you met? What were their experiences? How do you know they were telling you the truth? If I told you that I'd met a former Nazi who'd told me that the holocaust did not happen, would you accept that as a convincing argument as it stands? Would you give it any credence at all?
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Post by Liberator on Jul 23, 2011 1:29:44 GMT
There's one damned great problem in all this. Throughout the 1930s, The West supported Hitler (and Mussolini and Franco) as Great White Hope against the Bolshevik Hordes. They knew perfectly well that his policy towards Jews and other undesirables was no more than a more extreme of their own, especially in the racist segregated United States of Hypocrisy. Stalin remained the major threat even before the War was over.
Why then would the Western Allies find it at all necessary to fabricate death camps and hold the Nuremberg Trials? When it came round to do the same in Japan, they did all they could to let the Japanese off the hook, though in some ways they had been worse.
There was enough against the Nazi regime as it was without fantasising extermination camps. Slaves were worked to death and cremated; inmates were left subject to disease and malnutrition. Then again, there are Josef Mengele's horrific experiments. Why would anybody invent those things and where would they even imagine them from? There was more than enough to crucify the Nazis five ways from Sunday even without any of that. So why bother to invent extra?
The British C-in-C of Northern Ireland in the early 1970s was a Major John Wilsey. His father was involved in liberating Germany. When the people of a local village claimed they knew nothing about a concentration camp on their doorstep that the stink of was obvious, he rounded them up and marched them through it at gunpoint.
That is anecdotal evidence from Major-General Wilsey's wife to my mother acting as their cleaner in the 1950s - so because anecdotal, not to be credited - but another word for anecdotal is witnessed.
Some of us - or at least our forebears were there. Brits and Americans were not. So shut up telling those who experienced it that you know better. It is only accident and touch-&-go political manipulation that got your sort fighting against the Nazis instead of for them in the first place, so it is no wonder that you try to whitewash a regime based on mad occult mixtures of Black Magic, Theosophy, Arthurian and Teutonic myth now.
In the end of the day, between the British Reich and the Nazi Empire, the only real difference ever was and remains, that the Nazis were honest about their attitudes and ambitions.
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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karma:
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 23, 2011 5:02:23 GMT
Hi Sevenup!
Then there were the mass executions near Kiev after the nazis occupied that city, which David Irving himself confirms! Also the special units ( Einsatzgruppen ) of the SS, who rounded up and shot countless innocent people to alledgedly retaliate for partisan activity.. Let me suggest that before we start excusing or not excusing, we try to separate the myth from the reality. Here is really good example of what I mean - Deborah Lipstadt is one of the most respected holocaust historians, and she reveals that the five million number for the non-Jewish victims of the holocaust, the Gypsies, the homosexuals, etc., was made up out of thin air by Simon Wiesenthal. Here's a quote and the link .. "He admitted that he had invented the figure of eleven million victims in order to stimulate interest in the Holocaust among non-Jews. He chose five million because it was almost, but not quite, as large as six million."groups.yahoo.com/group/ReportersNotebook/message/5556If that number was made up out of nothing, how much of the holocaust is real? How much was made up out of exactly nothing? Do we know? Now, as for the Kiev massacre, which supposedly happened at Babi Yar, there are a few problems with that story too. First, the Nazis supposedly killed 300,000, 100,000, or 30,000. Let's take the smaller figure, the victims were supposedly shot. So, 30,000 dead bodies, 30,000 to 60,000 bullets, where are they? Not to be found. There have been no excavations at Babi Yar and there will be none. Now, there are a couple of twists to this tale. To account for the lack of physical evidence of the Babi Yar massacre, the standard narrative is that the Nazis first buried the bodies, and then at a later time came back, exhumed the bodies, and burned them. In charge of this operation, and also responsible for burning all the evidence of the massacres on the eastern front, was one Paul Blobel, and Nazi officer who had been relieved of his duties for drunkenness, and was called back to clean up the evidence of the mass executions. Blobel, like Hoess, confessed, you can read his confession .... let's find a link ... actually he confessed twice, the first didn't sound too convincing so he confessed again, the second confession ....here is part of it ... and a link ... “I myself witnessed the burning of corpses in a mass grave near Kiev during my visit in August 1943. This grave was about 55 meters long, 3 metres wide and 2 and half meters deep. When the cover had been lifted, the bodies were covered with fuel and set on fire. It took about two days for the grave to burn down. I myself saw that the grave became red-hot right down to the ground. Afterwards the grave was filled in, and thus all traces were as good as eliminated. Owing to the approach of the front, it was not possible to destroy the mass graves further to the south and the east, resulting from the executions of the Einsatzgruppen." www.holocaustresearchproject.org/einsatz/blobel.htmlNow, if it happened as Blobel described, the grave with ashes and bones would still be there. Is it? No. But, it gets better. The Soviet NKVD did massacre a number of Ukrainians at Vinnitsa, about 100km from Ukraine. The Nazis did find these graves and excavated them in the summer of 1943. They invited an international team of forensic experts to assist in identifying the bodies. You can read about it here .... rainbowwarrior2005.wordpress.com/2009/12/22/suppressed-history-the-genocide-at-vinnitsa/So, while the Nazis were supposedly burning the bodies at Babi Yar, they were simultaneously, 100km away, inviting an international forensics team to investigate an excavated mass grave of NKVD victims at Vinnitsa. This does not ring true. In short, the lack of physical evidence is not consistent with a massacre at Babi Yar, Paul Blobel's confession notwithstanding. Hi Sevenup! You obviously have studied this period of history extensively. I don't think many people could make a connection with the name Babi Yar.
I do have some questions about the events in these concentration camps. Like why would Elie Wiesel and so many Auschwitz survivors chose to go with the retreating Germans, when they left Auschwitz? The Germans offered them the choice of remaining in Auschwitz to await the Red Army.
I've heard the story that the Soviets offered the Auschwitz survivors the choice of becoming Soviet Russian citizens or being repatriated in Western Europe. Those who declined to become Soviet citizens were alledgely kidnapped into Soviet gulags. Do you know anything about this story?
I know that Stalin had all Russians, who the Germans held as prisoners put in Gulags. Stalin considered surrender treason. The Soviets also used Auschwitz as there own concentration camp for a while, but no one seems to have investigated this much.
The synthetic rubber factory seen below in Auschwitz Monowitz was vital to the axis war effort. Did Stalin kidnap the slave laborerers, who worked there and elsewhere to punish them for what they were forced to do??
furtherglory.wordpress.com/tag/monowitz/
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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karma:
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 23, 2011 5:25:58 GMT
Naziism or National Socialism was an attempt to reinvent the Roman empire! Ironic! Germany's greatest oppressor historically brought a hated system to be emulated by the so called National Socialists!! An Austrian artist's interpretation of Darwinism and the cult to the goddess Aphrodite played a role too. Even if Hitler was victorious militarily this system would have collapsed like the victorious Franco regime, Mao, Stalin, etc. These movements just disappear for the large part. They last a generation at the most and no longer!
Hey, it was past my bedtime too when I wrote that last post. But I've gotta disagree with you here. I see WW II as a conflict between imperial powers, one that ruled the world, and one that wanted to expand to the east and at the same time protect itself from the most bloodthirsty govt. the world had seen to that time, communist Russia. Hitler writes about all this in Mein Kampf. His aims were very limited, the 'rule the world' stuff is pure fiction. He explicitly did not want an worldwide imperial empire as per Britain. And, I think there was a crucial lesson to be learned from WW II, and it has nothing to do with the Nazis or the Jews. The lesson is that technology has put civilization, if not the entire human race, at risk. However the lesson that was leaned was the false lesson that is learned in every war, that 'good triumphs over evil'. Think about this. You actually believe this. Everyone does. It is not true, it was not true in WW II. You think that the 'evil' regimes are gone. Nope. The US and Russia immediately after the war set out to build a doomsday machine which has put the entire planet at risk of extinction in the next 24 hour period. This is the most wicked, evil, disastrous, thing, by a factor of 10,000, that has ever happened to the human race. And you're congratulating yourself that we conquered evil in WW II. Yes? No? It's people like me (ex DoD projects engineer) that, if anyone ever pushes the button, will be correctly viewed as the worst villains in history, again, by a factor of 10,000, if there is anyone left to consider the issue. I think we agree a lot on the "Doomsday Machines". I had a very hot thread on this here.. biglinmarshall.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2401 It really shocks me that so many people feel it was OK to use the atomic bomb on non combattant civilians and they naively "assume" that a positive goal was reached! If you have time feel free to post there!
I'm very cynical about all political systems! Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I think we agree with Napoleon's cynical remark that history is written by the victors in wars.
In the case of WW2 millions of individual destinies would have been greatly altered, if the axis powers somehow won. I think 50 years later we'd have pretty much the same society now, regardless of an axis victory. I believe there is a lot of truth to the reality of a "spirit of the times" or a "Zeitgeist". No political dictatorship or brainwashing can prevent this in the long run!
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