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Post by beth on Jan 19, 2010 1:59:25 GMT
Lin, you're mistaken about which of the two main U. S. political parties is less admirable. I was an independent voter for years, but finally registered democratic because the majority of the Republican party became so despicable I felt a tremendous need to assist (by vote and donation) the opposition. Both parties have pings and dings, but, honestly, a large percentage of the GOP rank and file are so ignorant and hateful they are a little frightening. Watching the conventions on TV does not hold a candle to living here with a first hand view of the problem. The socially conservative wing of the Republican party is - for the most part - dumbed down and anti-intellectual. Das is not part of that loony-lot, but he does not discourage it, either, that I can tell. They are easily influenced by anything that plays up to their prides and prejudices. They are led and controlled by fear . . . fear of change, fear of people who are "different", fear of losing their sense of self righteousness and self importance. They are slavishly loyal to FOX news and most of the media personalities that pander to them. Quite honestly, the whole movement is totally unpleasant. It's tempting to try to rise above and look down on them, but it would be a great mistake, imo, to take them too lightly. These are the people I've mentioned to you before, who the Republicans courted in the time of Nixon, via the southern strategy. Add to that, Jerry Falwell's fervent "moral majority" and you have quite an impressive movement. My guess is that, if they do not comprise 2/3s of the entire party, the numbers are moving in that direction. I don't see how you can possible believe the left (Democrats and Progressives) can be equated with the loonies on the right. They are much more likely to think for themselves, they are pro higher education, they are far more compassionate - beyond their own personal interests and, overall, more thoughtful, responsible people. Needless to say, there are exceptions, but far fewer extremists than the right. Of course the GOP isn't all made up of bubbas, hicks and racists. Of course there is plenty of self-interest and questionable activity on the left. But, one does not balance out the other. The comparison's do not come out even. The Telegraph published a list of the 20 most influential Republicans the other day. The top 3 are enough to cause any thinking person to cringe: 1) Dick Cheney 2) Rush Limbaugh 3) Matt Drudge. What a crew. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6990965/The-most-influential-US-conservatives-20-1.html
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Post by riotgrrl on Jan 19, 2010 7:38:40 GMT
Beth,
When you talk of the Democrats as being on the 'left', it makes sense in terms of them being on the left of the Republicans.
But the Democrats are still a centre-right wing party by any traditional political analysis.
It does make me laugh when I hear people going on about how left-wing the Democrats are.
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Post by Big Lin on Jan 19, 2010 13:25:34 GMT
By British standards, most of the Democrat's policies are to the right of the BNP, let alone the Tories!
The US hasn't had a coherent radical movement since the days of Foster and Browder in the 1930s.
For what it's worth, between 1860 and 1932 (with the brief exception of Harding and Coolidge) the Republicans were consistently to the LEFT of the Democrats.
If it comes to that it was Dewey who first put civil rights on the political agenda, and Eisenhower who first started trying to dismantle segregation in the South.
Even Nixon and Ford were not really 'right-wing.'
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Post by Big Lin on Jan 19, 2010 13:27:00 GMT
And don't forget that Jack Kennedy refused to condemn Joseph McCarthy!
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Post by beth on Jan 19, 2010 14:34:02 GMT
Yes, of course I meant - to the left of the conservative right in this country. That was the subject I was addressing in another post. No point in delving into world politics when the discussion was about what's going on in U. S. politics. The left-left (the further left flank of the Democratic party) is made up of Progressives and a few Socialists, but the Democratic party in America is 'our' left. My point was in reply to Lin's post to RV that had a number of inaccuracies about the political situation here. I stand by everything I said in that post.
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Post by clemiethedog on Jan 19, 2010 16:44:47 GMT
The United States has become far more conservative over the past 30 years, and far more conservative than the rest of the developed world. This is reflected in many statistics, as well. Take a look at the Gini co-efficiency rankings on equality and one will find the US pegged down with third world oligarchies and not with representative republics. Abortions have become more difficult, taxes have become regressive to harm the poor and working classes, wages for the majority have fallen, as have benefits like health care and paid vacations, CEO pay has skyrocketed. Basically the great compression that indeed ‘lifted all boats’ from the late 1940s to the mid-1980s is over, replaced by a rentier economy that benefits only the top few.
Beth is also correct with regard to the fierce anti-intellectualism of the right wing. Today many in the US reject evolution by natural selection, largely because of the presence of right wing Christian fundamentalists (although the growing presence of Islamic fundamentalists in Europe are bring those numbers down as well).
The US is becoming a dumbed down giant version of twitter, with one line answers to every question. Part of it, surprisingly, is the long election campaigns that increase the influence of money. In parliamentary governments, an election is called and the parties have a few months to campaign; in the US a presidential campaign begins literally years before the election. Registered lobbyists have increased over ten-fold and their influence is staggering. Corporations, financers, religious groups (who reap untold billions of tax free revenue), all wield powers inimical to a representative democracy.
Today Eisenhower would be tarnished as a communist; as would Lincoln and Ted Roosevelt.
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Post by clemiethedog on Jan 19, 2010 16:54:23 GMT
"For what it's worth, between 1860 and 1932 (with the brief exception of Harding and Coolidge) the Republicans were consistently to the LEFT of the Democrats."
Yes, pretty much. The Democrats at the time were called 'Bourbon Democrats' and they gave some notice to the farmers. They were corrupted with what I call "Jackson ethics", reflecting the period of Andrew Jackson that represented only segments of the population (lower tariffs, for example).
This was the gilded age and something the modern GOP wants us to return to, with massive poverty coexisting with massive wealth. A bad job is better than no job and wealth 'trickles down'. The only progressive era was the Roosevelt administration, and that was a response to the overdue reporting of the abuses of pure capitalism. In Ohio McKinley represented some unions in a battle with a oppressive employer, so even he would be to the left of today's GOP.
The Republicans blew it, fwiw, in 1876, with regard to civil rights and desegration. The Hayes presidency wasn't worth what they gave up. You might say from that point on there was little difference between the Republicans and the Democrats.
You are also correct, lin, about Dewey and Eisenhower wrt civil rights. Truman is pretty much in that group, as he desegrated the armed forces. They were taking baby steps, but politically that was the only option. The reactionary south was Democratic until 1964 when LBJ signed the civil rights act.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jan 20, 2010 0:13:24 GMT
1) ...it's impossible to come to any sort of reasonable compromise with conservatives on anything, but that we can fix our problems with nations like Iran and North Korea by just sitting down and talking things out.
2) ...they're the most compassionate people in society. Yet, in study after study, you find that conservatives give more of their money to charity than liberals.
3) ...they're not racist despite the fact that they consistently support policies that have been several orders of magnitude more devastating to black Americans than the Ku Klux Klan.
4) ...we've all got to dramatically reduce our carbon footprint to save the planet. Yet, liberals like Al Gore live in big mansions and fly around in private jets while still maintaining their credibility with their fellow environmentalist libs.
5) ...they're the people who are really looking out for women, but they strongly support sexual predators like Bill Clinton and they regularly hurl grotesque sexist insults at feminist role models like Sarah Palin who don't toe-the-liberal-line.
6) ...we definitely need to have higher tax rates in this country. Yet many of Obama's nominees and cabinet members, including the Secretary of the Treasury, don't pay their taxes as is -- and liberals are okay with that.
7) ...guns should be banned! Yet, while they want to take guns out of the hands of law-abiding Americans who live in dangerous neighborhoods, they believe liberal celebrities like Michael Moore and Rosie O'Donnell should be able to hire armed bodyguards.
8) ...they're the ones who really care about educating children; yet time and time again, they support policies that hurt our kids, but help their political allies in the teachers’ unions.
9) ...running deficits are bad! After all, liberals ceaselessly took credit for the budget being balanced during the Clinton years and attack Bush for his profligate spending, right? Yet, despite the fact that Obama is running an unsustainable deficit so large that it threatens the future of the country, liberals are perfectly fine with it.
10) ...college campuses are supposed to be places of learning and intellectual openness, but they tacitly approve of conservative speakers being attacked and shouted down.
11) ...they're gay-friendly even as they work to out gay Republicans and they often accuse the Republicans they hate the most of secretly being gay.
12) ...they're the ones who are champions of free speech, but liberals want to silence their most effective critics on talk radio via the Fairness Doctrine.
13) ...they're the ones who really want to stick to the Constitution. Yet, liberals buy into a "living Constitution," which is nothing more in practice than substituting your personal opinion for what's actually in the Constitution.
14) ...it was terrible for George Bush to detain terrorists indefinitely, to use extraordinary rendition to send them to other nations, and to withhold more photos of what happened at Abu Ghraib -- but, when Obama did the exact same things, few liberals had anything to say about it.
15) ...we have to move away from sources of energy like oil, coal, and nuclear power towards what they believe are more eco-friendly power sources like wind power. Yet, whenever anyone tries to build a wind turbine, it's almost always a liberal that attempts to stop it -- just as Ted Kennedy did because he was afraid his yachting view might be spoiled if the ideas he championed were put into practice.
16) ...they're courageous for speaking out against Republicans while Hollywood and the media cheer them on, but when the time comes to speak out against the abuses of radical Muslims, they're terrified into silence.
17) ...when someone despises America, we need to ask, "What have we done to make him hate us?" -- but, when someone despises liberals for what they're doing to the country, they conclude that person must be ignorant, bigoted, or evil.
18) ...it's morally abhorrent to put a serial killer to death, but that a mother killing her baby via abortion is merely a "choice."
19) ...we have to count every vote, except for members of the military serving overseas, most of whom are denied their right to vote because Democratic politicians deliberately delay in sending out their ballots until it's too late for them to be returned in time.
20) ...when they looked at information from our intelligence agencies and concluded that Saddam Hussein had WMDs, they were just mistaken -- but when George Bush looked at the same info and drew the same conclusion, he was lying.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jan 20, 2010 0:53:00 GMT
The Political Compass is a simple online test you can take to find out where you stand. Are you left or right? Authoritarian, Communist, Neo-Liberal, or Liberterian? Where would you place yourself on this chart? I took the test and came out just slightly to the right of center and just a little above the horizontal axis. I was much closer to the center than any of the examples shown. I guess I'm pretty much a middle of the road guy with balanced views. My guess is that Lin will score about the same. I would guess that RV and Beth will be far to the left of Gandhi close to the left edge of the chart and about on the horizontal axis. Jumbo will discover that he's really a Republican in waiting. But don't let me predict your scores. Take the test yourself and let us know how you scored. Here is a link to the Political Compass www.politicalcompass.org/indexTo take the test click the link on the upper left.
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Post by mikemarshall on Jan 20, 2010 1:15:00 GMT
This is what (rather to my surprise) I was designated as:
About The Political Compass™
In the introduction, we explained the inadequacies of the traditional left-right line.
If we recognise that this is essentially an economic line it's fine, as far as it goes. We can show, for example, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot, with their commitment to a totally controlled economy, on the hard left. Socialists like Mahatma Gandhi and Robert Mugabe would occupy a less extreme leftist position. Margaret Thatcher would be well over to the right, but further right still would be someone like that ultimate free marketeer, General Pinochet.
That deals with economics, but the social dimension is also important in politics. That's the one that the mere left-right scale doesn't adequately address. So we've added one, ranging in positions from extreme authoritarian to extreme libertarian.
Both an economic dimension and a social dimension are important factors for a proper political analysis. By adding the social dimension you can show that Stalin was an authoritarian leftist (ie the state is more important than the individual) and that Gandhi, believing in the supreme value of each individual, is a liberal leftist. While the former involves state-imposed arbitary collectivism in the extreme top left, on the extreme bottom left is voluntary collectivism at regional level, with no state involved. Hundreds of such anarchist communities exisited in Spain during the civil war period
You can also put Pinochet, who was prepared to sanction mass killing for the sake of the free market, on the far right as well as in a hardcore authoritarian position. On the non-socialist side you can distinguish someone like Milton Friedman, who is anti-state for fiscal rather than social reasons, from Hitler, who wanted to make the state stronger, even if he wiped out half of humanity in the process.
The chart also makes clear that, despite popular perceptions, the opposite of fascism is not communism but anarchism (ie liberal socialism), and that the opposite of communism ( i.e. an entirely state-planned economy) is neo-liberalism (i.e. extreme deregulated economy)
The usual understanding of anarchism as a left wing ideology does not take into account the neo-liberal "anarchism" championed by the likes of Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman and America's Libertarian Party, which couples social Darwinian right-wing economics with liberal positions on most social issues. Often their libertarian impulses stop short of opposition to strong law and order positions, and are more economic in substance (ie no taxes) so they are not as extremely libertarian as they are extremely right wing. On the other hand, the classical libertarian collectivism of anarcho-syndicalism ( libertarian socialism) belongs in the bottom left hand corner.
In our home page we demolished the myth that authoritarianism is necessarily "right wing", with the examples of Robert Mugabe, Pol Pot and Stalin. Similarly Hitler, on an economic scale, was not an extreme right-winger. His economic policies were broadly Keynesian, and to the left of some of today's Labour parties. If you could get Hitler and Stalin to sit down together and avoid economics, the two diehard authoritarians would find plenty of common ground.
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -4.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.97
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Post by mikemarshall on Jan 20, 2010 1:43:47 GMT
1) ...it's impossible to come to any sort of reasonable compromise with conservatives on anything, but that we can fix our problems with nations like Iran and North Korea by just sitting down and talking things out.
Well, of course, it's not impossible to compromise with conservatives, liberals, or socialists. I think it IS impossible to compromise with Iran but North Korea is not yet totally incapable of a diplomatic solution.
2) ...they're the most compassionate people in society. Yet, in study after study, you find that conservatives give more of their money to charity than liberals.
I do not accept the premise of your first sentence. Nor does your second take account of the following facts:
a) that is NOT the case in most countries other than America b) It has a lot to do with tax deductibility c) conservatives tend to be wealthier than liberals so they can afford to give more
3) ...they're not racist despite the fact that they consistently support policies that have been several orders of magnitude more devastating to black Americans than the Ku Klux Klan.
More detail rather than a simple rhetorical flourish might stimulate an interesting debate. Examples, please?
4) ...we've all got to dramatically reduce our carbon footprint to save the planet. Yet, liberals like Al Gore live in big mansions and fly around in private jets while still maintaining their credibility with their fellow environmentalist libs.
Al Gore would only be considered a liberal in America. In Britain, he'd be a right-wing Tory.
Anyway, politicians of all parties are generally hypocrites.
5) ...they're the people who are really looking out for women, but they strongly support sexual predators like Bill Clinton and they regularly hurl grotesque sexist insults at feminist role models like Sarah Palin who don't toe-the-liberal-line.
Well, there have been plenty of Republican sexual predators too, my dear chap. I do however agree with you that Sarah Palin has been treated in a totally disrespectful and frankly sexist manner
6) ...we definitely need to have higher tax rates in this country. Yet many of Obama's nominees and cabinet members, including the Secretary of the Treasury, don't pay their taxes as is -- and liberals are okay with that.
Actually the CORRECT position for liberals is being a LOW TAX advocate. You are confusing corrupt bureaucrats who believe in nothing with liberals who (if genuine) are at least idealistic (whereas politicians and bureaucrats are simply slaves to their career aspirations)
7) ...guns should be banned! Yet, while they want to take guns out of the hands of law-abiding Americans who live in dangerous neighborhoods, they believe liberal celebrities like Michael Moore and Rosie O'Donnell should be able to hire armed bodyguards.
I do not support banning guns and very much oppose the ban on them in my own country.
8) ...they're the ones who really care about educating children; yet time and time again, they support policies that hurt our kids, but help their political allies in the teachers’ unions.
Examples, please, rather than mere rhetoric?
9) ...running deficits are bad! After all, liberals ceaselessly took credit for the budget being balanced during the Clinton years and attack Bush for his profligate spending, right? Yet, despite the fact that Obama is running an unsustainable deficit so large that it threatens the future of the country, liberals are perfectly fine with it.
That is hardly fair. Reagan artificially created what was then the biggest budget deficit in history and it was not until Clinton that the economy finally went into surplus. I am hardly giving HIM credit for that; it was the result of a combination of good fortune and recklessness. Nevertheless, the reality is that Obama inherited a record deficit and he would need to be superhuman to bring it down significantly in one administration's lifetime. That is even if he possessed either the political will or the desire to do so which does not at present seem apparent.
You might also consider that Alexander Hamilton believed that a permanent budget deficit was a GOOD thing for the country.
10) ...college campuses are supposed to be places of learning and intellectual openness, but they tacitly approve of conservative speakers being attacked and shouted down.
That is hardly a new phenomenon. Compared with what used to happen during the late 1960s and 1970s, campus disruption nowadays is relatively mild.
11) ...they're gay-friendly even as they work to out gay Republicans and they often accuse the Republicans they hate the most of secretly being gay.
Hypocrisy is the prerogative of NO one political party or opinion.
12) ...they're the ones who are champions of free speech, but liberals want to silence their most effective critics on talk radio via the Fairness Doctrine.
And conservatives want to ban books, silence their most effective critics on radio and TV stations. Censorship is something common to both 'conservatives' and 'liberals' (I use the inverted commas because NEITHER group within the US is actually genuinely what they claim to be) because BOTH begin from an authoritarian perspective. Both are equally enemies of freedom and always have been.
13) ...they're the ones who reallywant to stick to the Constitution. Yet, liberals buy into a "living Constitution," which is nothing more in practice than substituting your personal opinion for what's actually in the Constitution.
So how do you explain the fact that the Constitution has been amended on numerous occasions? It always amuses me to see Americans treating the Constitution as if it were some direct revelation from God.
14) ...it was terrible for George Bush to detain terrorists indefinitely, to use extraordinary rendition to send them to other nations, and to withhold more photos of what happened at Abu Ghraib -- but, when Obama did the exact same things, few liberals had anything to say about it.
Nor were there many complaints from 'conservatives' when Clinton made what (before Bush) was the most relentless assault upon civil liberties in US history.
Special pleading is simply laughable at best and hypocritical at worst.
15) ...we have to move away from sources of energy like oil, coal, and nuclear power towards what they believe are more eco-friendly power sources like wind power. Yet, whenever anyone tries to build a wind turbine, it's almost always a liberal that attempts to stop it -- just as Ted Kennedy did because he was afraid his yachting view might be spoiled if the ideas he championed were put into practice.
Again, hypocrisy goes with the territory if you're a politician no matter what the party.
16) ...they're courageous for speaking out against Republicans while Hollywood and the media cheer them on, but when the time comes to speak out against the abuses of radical Muslims, they're terrified into silence.
Perhaps you should try getting out more, dear chap. You'd find that you were very much mistaken.
17) ...when someone despises America, we need to ask, "What have we done to make him hate us?" -- but, when someone despises liberals for what they're doing to the country, they conclude that person must be ignorant, bigoted, or evil.
Both attitudes are equally irrational and indefensible.
18) ...it's morally abhorrent to put a serial killer to death, but that a mother killing her baby via abortion is merely a "choice."
I know plenty of people who oppose the death penalty but also oppose abortion.
I also know people who support both (double death I believe it's called in the States)
19) ...we have to count every vote, except for members of the military serving overseas, most of whom are denied their right to vote because Democratic politicians deliberately delay in sending out their ballots until it's too late for them to be returned in time.
Well, politicians have been trying to fraudulently cook election results for years.
20) ...when they looked at information from our intelligence agencies and concluded that Saddam Hussein had WMDs, they were just mistaken -- but when George Bush looked at the same info and drew the same conclusion, he was lying.[/quote][/b]
Perhaps that is because it rapidly became apparent that he either WAS lying or that he had been deliberately lied TO by the CIA and NSA because it was common knowledge within both agencies that there WERE no WMDs in Iraq.
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Post by beth on Jan 20, 2010 2:46:59 GMT
In regard to the Political Compass, das, you were not very close in your guess work. Mine is Economic Left/Right: -4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.28
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Post by firedancer on Jan 20, 2010 12:37:01 GMT
With some of those questions I kept wanting to qualify my answer. But it's interesting.
Economic Left/Right: 0.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.62
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Post by clemiethedog on Jan 20, 2010 13:27:01 GMT
Economic Left/Right: -5.75 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.97
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Post by clemiethedog on Jan 20, 2010 14:01:58 GMT
Oh boy, 20 one-liners!
1) ...it's impossible to come to any sort of reasonable compromise with conservatives on anything, but that we can fix our problems with nations like Iran and North Korea by just sitting down and talking things out.
There are bad guys out there, always have been and always will. Launching wars for every injustice is not the only solution.
2) ...they're the most compassionate people in society. Yet, in study after study, you find that conservatives give more of their money to charity than liberals.
Conservatives have a lot more money and rich people aren’t bogged down by such rudimentary things like food and shelter and health care. Also, there’s that tax deduction thing and the desire to ‘be seen’ at some charity function.
3) ...they're not racist despite the fact that they consistently support policies that have been several orders of magnitude more devastating to black Americans than the Ku Klux Klan.
What policies? Taxing the rich at a graduated rate?
4) ...we've all got to dramatically reduce our carbon footprint to save the planet. Yet, liberals like Al Gore live in big mansions and fly around in private jets while still maintaining their credibility with their fellow environmentalist libs.
Al Gore is not the issue. I don’t like global warming anymore than the next guy, but it’s a reality.
5) ...they're the people who are really looking out for women, but they strongly support sexual predators like Bill Clinton and they regularly hurl grotesque sexist insults at feminist role models like Sarah Palin who don't toe-the-liberal-line.
Sarah Palin is a liar, an opportunist, a quitter, and a simple-minded demagogue who lacks the gravitas, temperament, and maturity for high office. Someone loaned me her stupid book and I’ll post a review when finished. So far she’s taking shots and lying through her teeth.
6) ...we definitely need to have higher tax rates in this country. Yet many of Obama's nominees and cabinet members, including the Secretary of the Treasury, don't pay their taxes as is -- and liberals are okay with that.
I believe that the secretary broke no laws, and while the nomination should have been withdrawn, I imagine it was tough to find anyone willing to fix the mess Bush left behind. In addition, Bush’s treasury secretary, oth, John Snow, committed mass murder as the CEO of CMX. Bush’s first secretary was fired for telling the truth about their idiotic tax plan.
7) ...guns should be banned! Yet, while they want to take guns out of the hands of law-abiding Americans who live in dangerous neighborhoods, they believe liberal celebrities like Michael Moore and Rosie O'Donnell should be able to hire armed bodyguards.
The homicide rate in the United States must be therefore mean that Americans are just prone to homicide. I also believe that many liberals are not calling for banning all guns. This is hyperbole at best and a lie at worst.
8) ...they're the ones who really care about educating children; yet time and time again, they support policies that hurt our kids, but help their political allies in the teachers’ unions.
Conservatives are the ones trying to force Intelligent Design in biology and anthropology courses. Conservatives are the ones trying to destroy public education.
9) ...running deficits are bad! After all, liberals ceaselessly took credit for the budget being balanced during the Clinton years and attack Bush for his profligate spending, right? Yet, despite the fact that Obama is running an unsustainable deficit so large that it threatens the future of the country, liberals are perfectly fine with it.
Overly simple BS. Obama is allowing the tax cuts Bush enacted for the very wealthy to expire, which should address much of the revenue shortfalls. Moreover, a severe recession has an adverse effect on revenues. Conservatives are the ones who promote the illusion that cutting tax rates will increase revenue. Conservatives who are dumb enough believe this nonsense should enroll in a remedial math class without haste.
10) ...college campuses are supposed to be places of learning and intellectual openness, but they tacitly approve of conservative speakers being attacked and shouted down.
Conservative speakers such as the President of Iran (Columbia, 2009)? Conservatives are the ones who bring guns to town hall meeting and the tea bagging assholes are the ones who shout and disrupt such meetings (i.e. “I am a right wing terrorist!”).
11) ...they're gay-friendly even as they work to out gay Republicans and they often accuse the Republicans they hate the most of secretly being gay.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about here.
12) ...they're the ones who are champions of free speech, but liberals want to silence their most effective critics on talk radio via the Fairness Doctrine.
Talk radio? Limbaugh and Hannity and the rest of those fascists can speak all they want. It puts a face on the hatred.
13) ...they're the ones who really want to stick to the Constitution. Yet, liberals buy into a "living Constitution," which is nothing more in practice than substituting your personal opinion for what's actually in the Constitution.
I think only an idiot believes that every specific right is documented in the constitution. (not to call them idiots myself, someone beat me to it about 220 years ago). Conservatives are the ones who hate the bill of rights (except for the 2nd amendment, of course).
14) ...it was terrible for George Bush to detain terrorists indefinitely, to use extraordinary rendition to send them to other nations, and to withhold more photos of what happened at Abu Ghraib -- but, when Obama did the exact same things, few liberals had anything to say about it.
IIRC, conservatives are up and arms over Obama’s plan to shut down Gitmo and hold open trials. Fact is, most of those prisoners who were held for years were innocent of any acts of terror and were never affiliated with al-Quedo or other terrorist groups.
15) ...we have to move away from sources of energy like oil, coal, and nuclear power towards what they believe are more eco-friendly power sources like wind power. Yet, whenever anyone tries to build a wind turbine, it's almost always a liberal that attempts to stop it -- just as Ted Kennedy did because he was afraid his yachting view might be spoiled if the ideas he championed were put into practice.
Conservatives are against alternative energy and their wingnut causes are financed the malefactors who run the oil and coal corporations. Ted Kennedy? He’s dead (though this drivel was probably first written while he was still alive, as it be recycled over and over)
16) ...they're courageous for speaking out against Republicans while Hollywood and the media cheer them on, but when the time comes to speak out against the abuses of radical Muslims, they're terrified into silence.
Eh? This is crap.
17) ...when someone despises America, we need to ask, "What have we done to make him hate us?" -- but, when someone despises liberals for what they're doing to the country, they conclude that person must be ignorant, bigoted, or evil.
I don’t know, the so-called liberal Democrats have been doing a lot of rolling over to appease Joe Liberman (R-CT) and perceived less-extreme Republicans from Maine.
18) ...it's morally abhorrent to put a serial killer to death, but that a mother killing her baby via abortion is merely a "choice."
You’re entering the legal realm here and reproductive rights. A birthday is not when a fetus is conceived. Simple enough? As for serial killers, they get no sympathy from me.
19) ...we have to count every vote, except for members of the military serving overseas, most of whom are denied their right to vote because Democratic politicians deliberately delay in sending out their ballots until it's too late for them to be returned in time.
This is crap.
20) ...when they looked at information from our intelligence agencies and concluded that Saddam Hussein had WMDs, they were just mistaken -- but when George Bush looked at the same info and drew the same conclusion, he was lying.
Bush lied about the WMDs and a whole bunch more.
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Post by beth on Jan 20, 2010 17:33:17 GMT
Quote: Sarah Palin is a liar, an opportunist, a quitter, and a simple-minded demagogue who lacks the gravitas, temperament, and maturity for high office. Someone loaned me her stupid book and I’ll post a review when finished. So far she’s taking shots and lying through her teeth. Yes, and narcissistic, don't forget. Has nothing to do with her being female, Mike, just has to do with her being the kind of person she is. Wow - stupid, deranged and narcissistic, what a gal. Not good to take her too lightly, though, because she has a legion of people with similar liabilities egging her on. This is worth taking a look-see. Apparently, there are enough sensible Republicans to keep her at bay for the moment. Poll: Most Republicans don’t want Palin to run in 2012 new CBS News poll finds that a large majority of Americans say they do not want former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin to run for president. Specifically, 71 percent say they do not want the former Republican vice presidential nominee to run for president, while 21 percent say they do want her to run. When the results are split out by party, 56 percent of Republicans say they do not want her to seek the office and 30 percent do. Meanwhile, 88 percent of Democrats do not want her to run. Among independents, 65 percent do not want her to run and 25 percent do. The poll also finds that more people view Palin negatively than positively and that her book tour did not improve overall views of her. However, she is a little better-known now than she was last fall, and both favorable and unfavorable ratings of her have increased slightly. /snip Go Here for the rest of the article, graphs, charts, etc..
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