Jack the Ripper

[♫anna♫]

Oct 30, 2009 7:39:46 GMT gabriel said:

However, I must say I do find the idea of Jack wiping his bloody knife then whipping a piece of chalk out his pocket, when 2 separate police forces are hunting him, to write a strange message, pretty unlikely. Unless, of course, it was good old MJD, barrister/teacher, who happened to have an odd piece of chalk from school in his pocket!

If you're referring to Druitt he had to go the opposite direction for a 2 hour walk home to Blackhearth in the south. It's generally assumed the ripper was heading home after the Eddowes murder and he was going east/north, which points towards Bury, Chapman and other suspects in that general direction. It's assumed he just went into Ghould Str. to dispose of evidence and then continued his route. If the ripper was into graffitti he would have likely shown this with the Mary Kelly murder.

[trubble]

Is the discovery of the bloody apron fragment considered beyond doubt?

I am reminded of OJ Simpson and the convenient gloves and socks with blood on them. (I have always seen OJ as guilty but someone recently put doubt in my mind with the conspiracy theory that his son had dunnit).

Is there a chance that the cloth and the chalk message were a set up?

[trubble]

Oct 30, 2009 7:13:59 GMT gabriel said:

OK. Bury. Yes, I can see where he seems a promising lead but again there are incidents that don't fit what we do know about Jack. His victim saw a pocket knife in their bed. The landlady saw him straddling her with a table knife. Dr Bagster Phillips at Chapman's inquest testified that '...it must have been a very sharp knife with a thin narrow blade, and must have been at least 6in to 8in in length, probably longer.' 6-8 inches in length, probably longer, does not match a pocket knife or a table knife.

There was a clear motive for Bury's killing - he wanted her money. Jack was after any woman he could get his hands on.

After Kelly's murder in November, Bury does nothing for 2 months then turns on his wife? I do not believe that Jack, after what he did to Kelly, simply turned off his murderous rage. I don't think he could. Which is my main objection to Chapman. Bundy literally couldn't help himself at the end when he killed Kimberley Leach. Neither could John Wayne Gacy or Jeffrey Dahmer.

Jack was a disorganized killer. He had to kill and he did, no matter what the chance was of his being found. Chapman and Stride's murders are clear indicators of that. Bury shoves his wife in a box.

Thanks, I'll think about that.

I don't find it a stretch to think that an alcoholic, who's murdered his wife and is probably coming off a bender, would write something strange comparing himself to Jack.

No, it's not a stretch at all. I ignored it as evidence when thinking about his candidacy because there could be any number of explanations.

[♫anna♫]

William Bury
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Henry_Bury
Database Composite of Jack the Ripper
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15826443/

Bury except for the beard somewhat resembles the ripper's discription-however accurate or inaccurate this discription may be.

[gabriel]

We know from witness descriptions that the men reliably witnessed with the victims were aged 28-35. They were not tall, 5ft10inch would be the max and probably shorter. A moustache but that was pretty common at the time. Descriptions of the clothes vary but Jack certainly wasn't astrakhan man with Kelly. I really doubt that astrakhan man existed.

[gabriel]

Oct 30, 2009 15:50:11 GMT trubble said:

Is the discovery of the bloody apron fragment considered beyond doubt?

I am reminded of OJ Simpson and the convenient gloves and socks with blood on them. (I have always seen OJ as guilty but someone recently put doubt in my mind with the conspiracy theory that his son had dunnit).

Is there a chance that the cloth and the chalk message were a set up?

The piece of apron definitely belonged to Cathy Eddowes. The chalk message, like I said, you can argue it was Jack or it wasn't Jack. Anna is absolutely right. We will never know. But the message should have been photographed. And the police could have done that if they really wanted to.

Jack passed through there. We know that because he left the apron. It's the only piece of physical evidence he left.

A set up? Well, I don't believe in conspiracies so from my point of view, no.

[gabriel]

This is a photo of a 19th century amputation knife, owned by Donald Rumbelow. It gives an idea of the weapon Jack would have used.

[gabriel]

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/may/03/books.ukcrime

This is almost 5 years old but new to me. I don't agree with many of the conclusions he makes.

Jack the Ripper 'may have killed abroad'Murderer possibly a sailor rather than a surgeon, says new book

Mark Honigsbaum The Guardian, Tuesday 3 May 2005 00.02 BST Article historyFor all the blood spilt by Jack the Ripper, and all the ink expended since by authors claiming to know his identity, ripperologists generally agree that with the killing of the prostitute Mary Kelly in Whitechapel on November 8 1888, his frenzied murder spree came to an abrupt end.
After that "Jack" - if that was indeed his name - disappeared into the London fog, never to be seen again.

But what if the murders continued in Managua, the capital of Nicaragua? And what if, after a break of eight months, there was a further Whitechapel killing which, as in the Kelly case, ended with a prostitute's throat being cut and her body mutilated, followed, three months later, by a further killing in Germany?

That is the intriguing theory raised in a new book on the Whitechapel murders by Trevor Marriott, a former Bedfordshire police detective. Using modern police procedural techniques, Marriott has spent two years poring over the Ripper killings, re-examining the evidence given by police doctors and pathologists at the time.

His conclusions, published this week in Jack the Ripper: the 21st Century Investigation, challenge the conventional wisdom that the murderer was a skilled surgeon. Moreover, Marriott says the location and timing of the killings - not far from London docks with gaps of several weeks in between - suggest the killer may have been a merchant seaman.

Marriott thinks he may have identified the ship he arrived on - the Sylph, a 600-tonne cargo vessel which arrived in Britain from Barbados in July 1888, before the killing of the Ripper's first victim, Mary Ann Nichols, and which returned to the Caribbean on November 22, two weeks after the Kelly slaying, from where the same killer could have committed the Nicaraguan murder spree.

"The detectives at the time took a very blinkered approach,' says Marriott. "They were convinced the killer was someone who lived or worked in the Whitechapel area. They completely overlooked the fact that there was a pattern emerging which pointed to the possibility the killer may have been a sailor who only occasionally visited Whitechapel, hence the gaps between the murders."

Marriott is not the first person to claim to have uncovered sensational evidence about Whitechapel's most notorious unsolved murders. Hardly a month goes by without some revelation - the latest being the Swansea author Tony Williams's claim that the Ripper was his great-great uncle, Sir John Williams, Queen Victoria's obstetrician and a celebrated book collector who founded the National Library of Wales.

Other recent suspects include James Maybrick, a Liverpool cotton broker who supposedly confessed to the killings in diaries which surfaced in the early 90s, and Francis Tumblety, an American doctor who before coming to England kept a collection of female body parts at his home in New York. Then there was American crime novelist Patricia Cornwell's claim two years ago that she had discovered DNA evidence tying the Victorian artist Walter Sickert to the Ripper letters. Like all similar claims to have "solved" the murders, Cornwell's thesis subsequently wilted under scrutiny.

In his book, Marriott makes no such claims. Instead, he revisits the crime scenes and the testimony of contemporary witnesses. One of this most startling conclusions is that the Ripper need not have been a skilled surgeon - a long-held assumption based on the fact that in the case of the Ripper's second victim, Annie Chapman, both her vagina and part of her bladder were removed, and that in the case of Kelly her kidney was missing.

But Marriott points out that those were the only two cases in which vital organs were expertly cut out and that they could have been removed at the mortuary before the police surgeon arrived to perform the postmortem, possibly by traders in body parts. He also says there has never been an adequate explanation for why the killings suddenly stopped. Most experts assume the murderer was jailed for other crimes or died. But if Marriott's theory is right, and Jack the Ripper was a crewman on the Sylph, then he may have been responsible for killings in Managua in January 1889 described in a report in the Times as "six of the most atrocious murders ever committed within the limits of this city".

According to the Times report, two of the victims were "butchered out of all recognition" with their faces "horribly slashed". Both the mutilation of prostitutes' bodies and face slashing were a hallmark of the Whitechapel murders and a feature which led detectives to believe the Ripper was a serial sex attacker. Marriott also argues that the Ripper may have been responsible for a later murder of a Whitechapel prostitute not included in the usual five canonical Ripper slayings.

Alice McKenzie was found mutilated in Castle Alley, north of Whitechapel Road, on July 17 1889. Like the other Ripper victims there were signs that she had been throttled before having her throat slit and her body mutilated. One of the police pathologists who conducted the postmortem on McKenzie concluded she should be counted as the sixth Ripper victim - a verdict with which the divisional surgeon disagreed at the time.

If Marriott is right and the Ripper was a merchant seaman it might also explain that the Washington Star, bearing the dateline, Hamburg, 18 October 1889, reported the discovery of "the mutilated body" of a woman in Flensburg, a seaport with frequent sailings to London.

The report was headlined, Jack the Ripper: has he left England to continue his crimes in Germany?

The unusual suspects

About 140 people have been fingered for the Ripper's crimes over the years, including:

· George Chapman A Polish immigrant arrested in 1902 for poisoning several women, including his wife. Chapman's arrival in England coincided with the start of the Whitechapel murders and the killings ceased when he went to America.

· Prince Albert Victor According to one theory, Prince Albert, Queen Victoria's grandson, committed the murders after being driven mad by syphilis. According to another, the murders were committed with the aid of Victoria's physician, Sir William Gull, as part of a cover-up to protect the royal family from Albert's affair with a Catholic commoner whose nanny was Mary Kelly.

· Walter Sickert German-born painter who supposedly trawled the East End for prostitutes to model for him. One of his paintings, The Camden Town Murder, is said to bear a striking resemblance to the Mary Kelly murder scene.

· James Maybrick Liverpool cotton merchant who frequented brothels and was addicted to arsenic and strychnine. In the early 1990s Michael Barrett, a former Liverpool scrap merchant, "discovered" a diary in which Maybrick confessed to the Whitechapel murders. Barrett later confessed to forging the diaries.

· Francis Tumblety An American quack doctor who was in London at the time of the murders. Named as a suspect in 1913 by former special branch chief JG Littlechild, Tumblety was a sadist and homosexual who kept female body parts in a cabinet in his home.

· Sir John Williams Queen Victoria's former obstetrician and founder of the National Library of Wales, Williams is the latest Ripper suspect. According to his great-great nephew, Swansea author Tony Williams, he was obsessed with female anatomy and infertility because of his wife's failure to conceive. He also worked at the Whitechapel workhouse infirmary, where he treated Mary Ann Nichols and three other Ripper victims.

[♫anna♫]

Nov 1, 2009 5:59:22 GMT gabriel said:

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/may/03/books.ukcrime
If Marriott is right and the Ripper was a merchant seaman it might also explain that the Washington Star, bearing the dateline, Hamburg, 18 October 1889, reported the discovery of "the mutilated body" of a woman in Flensburg, a seaport with frequent sailings to London.

I'm not familar with the Managua killings, but could do a google search on that. Can it be proven that the Sylph was there at the exact time of the murders?

Quoting presumably a newspaper, the "Washington Star" about a murder in Flensburg ( www.reisefuehrer-deutschland.de/schleswig-holstein/landkarte.htm ) and speculating that the "Sylph" was in the harbor with the sailor on board=ripper sounds a little concocted, but it might be a better read than the average detective story.
This all sounds like the Feigenbaum=ripper speculation and tying world wide murders into the jtr cult.

Well Mr. Marriott is certainly going to make money.

The speculation that a mortican robbed and maybe sold organs of the victims is curious. The article or Marriott claims that Mary Kelly's kidney was missing too, but it's also claimed or factually stated that the kidney was found under Miss Kelly's severed head.

[♫anna♫]

Oct 30, 2009 15:50:11 GMT trubble said:

Is the discovery of the bloody apron fragment considered beyond doubt?

I am reminded of OJ Simpson and the convenient gloves and socks with blood on them. (I have always seen OJ as guilty but someone recently put doubt in my mind with the conspiracy theory that his son had dunnit).

Is there a chance that the cloth and the chalk message were a set up?

I don't believe the ripper wrote that graffitti, but i can't prove it.
I suspect the ripper noticed the fresh grafitti, but didn't really attentively read it and decided to toss that apron there. He was looking for a spot to disgard that apron.

[gabriel]

Anna, I can't prove that Jack wrote the graffito and I can't prove he didn't.
But it was important evidence that should have been preserved.

The seaman theory has been around since the murders. It's as good as any other but I really doubt that anyone who didn't live in Whitechapel would have known his way in and around the back alleys Jack used.

However, that doesn't preclude Jack from setting sail and it does explain why there were no more JTR murders in London.

However, like you, I'll have to go and dig up info about these murders in Manuagua.

[♫anna♫]

Nov 1, 2009 7:00:46 GMT gabriel said:

Anna, I can't prove that Jack wrote the graffito and I can't prove he didn't.
But it was important evidence that should have been preserved.

The seaman theory has been around since the murders. It's as good as any other but I really doubt that anyone who didn't live in Whitechapel would have known his way in and around the back alleys Jack used.

However, that doesn't preclude Jack from setting sail and it does explain why there were no more JTR murders in London.

However, like you, I'll have to go and dig up info about these murders in Manuagua.

Which direction is the harbor from Whitechapel? Does the direction that the ripper took from Mitra square towards Ghould street point towards the harbor?

I agree the graffitti should have been preserved, but there is no other evidence of ripper graffitti at any of the crime scenes. Although in one of my older posts i posted the links to the YouTube presentations of the Maybrick diaries and it's claimed there in one of the videos that ripper Maybrick put the initials of his wife F S on the wall above Mary Kelly's body. No other source claims that the ripper left Graffitti in Mary Kelly's room.

[gabriel]

Docklands is north-west of the murder scenes. Goulston St is to the south-east. I think Jack was circling back but I believe he was heading slightly west.

And this all sounds pretty confusing I understand. I believe he eventually headed just slightly west. But that doesn't mean he couldn't have been a sailor. Even Queen Victoria was urging her govt to check boats and their crews.

Anyway, when I get the time, I'll check out the Managua link. Although I don't hold much hope. If it was for real, it would have been plastered all over the newspapers long before now.

[gabriel]

I don't know how useful this is but it's a start.

www.casebook.org/press_reports/mitchell_daily_republican/890207.html

Mitchell Daily Republican
South Dakota, USA
7 February 1889

SIX MORE FOR JACK
The Whitechapel Fiend is Evidently Traveling Westward

Stories of His Horrible Atrocities Now Come from Central America

Mutilated Remains of Six More Unfortunates found in Nicaragua

Managua, Nicaragua. Feb. 7.
Either "Jack the Ripper" of Whitechapel, has emigrated from the scene of his ghastly murders, or he has found one or more imitators in this part of Central America. The people have been greatly aroused by six of the most atrocious murders ever committed within the limits of this city. The assassin has vanished and left no trace for identification. All the victims were women of the character who met their fate at the hands of the London murderer. They were found murdered just as mysteriously, and the evidence points to almost identical methods. Two were found butchered out of all recognition. Even their faces were most horribly slashed, and in the cases of all the others their persons were frightfully disfigured. Like "Jack the Ripper's" victims, they have been found in out of the way places. Two of the victims were possessed of gaudy jewelry, and from that it is urged that the mysterious murderer has not committed the crime for robbery. In fact, in almost every detail the crimes and characteristics are almost identical with the Whitechapel cases.

I don't know whether this report is true or not. It's late and I'll look into it again when I get a chance. But I think it's pretty sussy. Who knows.

[♫anna♫]

This interview from a Tumblety= ripper believer tries to place the 55 year old US homosexual in Managua ( Central America ).
I just don't believe in late middle aged/pre elderly serial killers getting started, but to prove the Tumblety=ripper supporters wrong is a toughie! He was arrested for homosexual acts 2 days before the Mary Kelly murder and thus a prime suspect for the Victorian era mindset!

At least it's admitted in the interview that the "evidence" making Tumblety a Whitechapel resident ( Batty Street ) is very flimsy at best!
www.casebook.org/authors/interviews/int-spe.html QUOTE:
There were a series of prostitute murders, undetected, in Kingston Jamaica in late December 1888 and in Managua, Nicaragua, in early 1889. These murders were so similar, involving both facial and bodily mutilation, to the London killings that the contemporary newspapers gave details of them speculating that the London Ripper was responsibe. This appeared in American newspapers and in the London TIMES, and it was alleged that Scotland Yard contacted the Nicaraguan police for details, feeling that their quarry was ten in that country. Dr Tumblety, as stated in his books, visited both the Caribbean and Central America, and he was on the run at the same time of these other murders.

[♫anna♫]

Nov 1, 2009 12:31:36 GMT gabriel said:

I don't know how useful this is but it's a start.

www.casebook.org/press_reports/mitchell_daily_republican/890207.html

Like "Jack the Ripper's" victims, they have been found in out of the way places.

I really wouldn't call Mitra Square and the other ripper murder sites out of the way places! Everything except for Mary Kelly's locked door points to the ripper wishing to exhibit his victims and shock the community he lived in.

[gabriel]

Well, you're right, there could always have been an exhibitionist element in Jack's makeup. And you're right too that the murder scenes weren't out of the way places. Now, this wasn't a serial murder - the famous Black Dahlia murder in LA in January '47. Beth Short's body was cut in half and publicly exhibited on a vacant block of land. That was for a reason, IMO. To warn I believe other prostitutes to be careful. Of precisely what, I'm not sure.

In 3 of the murders, Jack sets himself up in situations where he could easily have been trapped: Hanbury St, Dutfield's Yard and Mitre Sq. He didn't pose the victims. He left them as he finished with them. The only time he may have posed something was in Hanbury St with the coins, piece of muslin and comb. And the experts themselves don't agree that those items were even near her body, let alone strategically placed.

The Venezualan story seems, I still think, a bit dodgy. I don't believe Tumblety was Jack, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have killed those women in Sth Am.

[♫anna♫]

The btk killer telephoned the police after his murders, if he believed they wouldn't be discovered. This murderer also restricted his murders to a small area, Wichita, Kansas. Exhibitionism and shocking the community obviously were a factor with the btk killer..

Bury tried to conceal the murder he was hung for, which suggests it was unplanned if he was the ripper.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Henry_Bury

[♫anna♫]

Nov 2, 2009 9:20:35 GMT gabriel said:

I don't believe Tumblety was Jack, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have killed those women in Sth Am.

Dearest Gabe,
I agree with you that Tumblety is not a serious ripper suspect.
I believe Tumblety, like Kosminski and Druitt were victims of Victorian era profiling.
Tumblety was arrested for homosexuality 2 days before the Mary Kelly murder and charges were filed in the far west end of London at the Marlborough Street police station. He most likely lodged in the West side of London. The speculation that he was a lodger in Batty Str. has never been shown to have any basis in reality. Unfortunately it is often claimed to be a fact that Tumblety lived in Batty Street. Like you say trying to make the facts fit the case. Tumblety jumped bail after his arrest and release. The Tumblety=ripper frenzy probably started with Constable Littlechild's letter.
www.casebook.org/official_documents/lcletter.html

[gabriel]

Yeah, I'm not sure about Littlechild.

[♫anna♫]

The foundation of the ripper=kosminski theory rests in what the JTR Dictionary describes as "Anderson's Witness" books.google.com/books?id=9QerSzv2RDQC&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=Israel+Schwartz+aaron+kosminski&source=bl&ots=9YqeO73F9q&sig=d18v-k0J6GTzrbOQxT9yrWqSIwA&hl=en&ei=x7boStjDCIG4sgaf342SDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Israel%20Schwartz%20aaron%20kosminski&f=false
The link is a pdf site so i can't quote the Anderson's Witness description. The casebook link below sums up the known facts.

I can easily imagine some Victorian era investigator trying to cultivate the suggestion in the mind of a witness that they saw Kosminski. Very fitting for Victorian society that the ripper would be a dirty, crazy foreigner and could never appear to be someone respectable.

www.casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/cjmorley/107.html QUOTE:
'He ( Kosminski ) goes about the streets and picks up bits of bread from the gutter and eats them, he drinks water from a standpipe and refuses food at the hands of others, he is very dirty and will not be washed'. When he was readmitted to the Mile End infirmary Dr Houchin, who examined Kosminski, stated that the patient believed he was guided and controlled by an instinct that informed his mind, that he claimed to know the movements of all mankind and compulsively self-abused himself.

Lets look again at what Anderson and Macnaghten wrote. Macnaghten referred to a city P.C near Mitre Square, which was the night of the double murder 30 September. Except, there was no policeman who saw Catherine Eddowes with her killer, the only witness to see a man with Catherine Eddowes and give a description was Joseph Lawende, except, Lawende was not a policeman. The only policeman who saw one of the victims with a man on the night she was murdered was Constable William Smith, except, Smith was not a city PC. Anderson wrote that the only person who ever had a good view of the murderer identified the suspect the instant he was confronted with him, but refused to give evidence against him because the suspect was also a Jew Constable Smith however was not a Jew. This leaves us with only Joseph Lawende as our witness, or does it.

Lawende claims he only got a glimpse of the man he saw with Eddowes and doubted if he could identify him again. The first seaside home where the identification was supposed to have taken place, did not open until March 1890 in Hove, and Kosminski was not incarcerated until February 1891. Therefore, the earliest the identification could have taken place was February 1891. If Lawende only got a glimpse of the man and doubted he would recognise him again, how was he able to identify him with such certainty some 15 month later. It is therefore quite reasonable to assume that Lawende was not Anderson's witness, so who was.

Lawende was in the company of two men that night, Harry Harris and Joseph Hyam Levy, who saw Catherine Eddowes with her likely killer. Harris took no notice of them, and was unable to supply any description, and was not called at the inquest. Levy, who for reasons not known, became distressed by the couple, this has led to speculation that he recognised and knew the man seen with Eddowes, and that it was he who was Anderson's witness. Levy was called to the inquest but was unable to supply a description, though the press remained suspicious as to the extent of what Levy actually saw or knew. It was the same Joseph Hyam Levy who supported the naturalisation application of Martin Kosminski, though despite the scarcity of the name, no connection has yet been established between Martin Kosminski and Ripper suspect Aaron Kosminski.

Was Aaron Kosminski, Jack the Ripper. He did not die soon after being sent to Colney Hatch as Macnaghten and Swanson claimed, but some 30 years later. He was not removed to a lunatic asylum in March 1889 but February 1891. Even though few records of Kosminski's health have survived, in 1915 he was described as, slight in stature and light in build, his weight was given as under eight stone and even though his weight had slowly decreased he was described as in good health, which suggests that he was always slight of build. Aaron Kosminski was 23 years of age at the time of the Whitechapel murders. Kosminski, either in age or build, does not fit the eyewitness sightings of the Ripper. Elizabeth Darrell described a suspect over 40 years of age, while William Marshall describe a short stout suspect. Israel Schwartz described a broad shouldered suspect, about 30 years old. Mary Ann Cox described a suspect about 36 years of age and finally George Hutchinson described a suspect 34-35 years of age.

Kosminski was at liberty for nearly two years after the murder of Mary Kelly, so why did he stop killing. There is also no evidence he possessed any anatomical knowledge or had violent, suicidal or homicidal tendencies, and was not considered a danger to other people. The Mile End workhouse infirmary declared that he had been insane for two years, therefore the onset of his illness started before the Ripper murders commenced. Would a prostitute, however intoxicated or desperate for money be comfortable accommodating an insane poor immigrant lunatic who was dirty and picked up bread from the gutter, when the word on the streets was that the Ripper was a foreign lunatic. In later years Macnaghten changed suspects and began to favour Montague John Druitt.

[gabriel]

You're absolutely right about Kosminski.

I don't think he was Jack but someone very like him was.

He was crazier than Kosminski but he flew under the radar.

[♫anna♫]

Nov 4, 2009 11:55:26 GMT gabriel said:

You're absolutely right about Kosminski.

I don't think he was Jack but someone very like him was.

He was crazier than Kosminski but he flew under the radar.

Here we disagree! I don't believe jtr was by any definition "legally insane"! Evil and criminal yes! crazy no! I'm sure the ripper enjoyed very much the hysteria and hype that his murders caused. A crazed slasher is usually caught with his/her first murder. The ripper however understood that he had to strangle his victims to stop the blood splattering which he did. His form of murder shocked Victorean society and Whitechapel more than any other form of murder could and he intended that in my opinion.

The Eddowes murder in Mitra Square occured during the 12 minutes that the constable was away. I can't prove you wrong if you believe that a legally insane ripper just by chance struck then. I tend to agree with those who believe the ripper was aware of the rounds that the constables made. jtr knew he was taking big risks and was very careful and disappeared immediately when a potential witness approached as in the Liz Stride murder. A criminal mindset and not psychotic like Kosminski.

[gabriel]

Nov 4, 2009 15:06:36 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

Nov 4, 2009 11:55:26 GMT gabriel said:

You're absolutely right about Kosminski.

I don't think he was Jack but someone very like him was.

He was crazier than Kosminski but he flew under the radar.

Here we disagree! I don't believe jtr was by any definition "legally insane"! Evil and criminal yes! crazy no! I'm sure the ripper enjoyed very much the hysteria and hype that his murders caused. A crazed slasher is usually caught with his/her first murder. The ripper however understood that he had to strangle his victims to stop the blood splattering which he did. His form of murder shocked Victorean society and Whitechapel more than any other form of murder could and he intended that in my opinion.

The Eddowes murder in Mitra Square occured during the 12 minutes that the constable was away. I can't prove you wrong if you believe that a legally insane ripper just by chance struck then. I tend to agree with those who believe the ripper was aware of the rounds that the constables made. jtr knew he was taking big risks and was very careful and disappeared immediately when a potential witness approached as in the Liz Stride murder. A criminal mindset and not psychotic like Kosminski.

Well, it's an interesting idea that Jack had prowled his killing field before striking. Definitely in terms of he knew his way around and how to get out. I agree with you about that.

Jack timing coppers' rounds? Honestly, I don't believe so. Jack killed when he did because he had to. I think of it as blood lust. He just had to. He couldn't stop himself. Which is why he put himself in situations where he could have easily been caught.

I don't believe Jack had a criminal mind set. He was psychotic. But not to the point where he would be dribbling and scrounging around in gutters. Absolutely not. There was enough awareness of the real world left so he could appear to be normal.

If he didn't, then the prostitutes would never have gone with him.

[♫anna♫]

Nov 5, 2009 8:00:49 GMT gabriel said:

Nov 4, 2009 15:06:36 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

Here we disagree! I don't believe jtr was by any definition "legally insane"! Evil and criminal yes! crazy no! I'm sure the ripper enjoyed very much the hysteria and hype that his murders caused. A crazed slasher is usually caught with his/her first murder. The ripper however understood that he had to strangle his victims to stop the blood splattering which he did. His form of murder shocked Victorean society and Whitechapel more than any other form of murder could and he intended that in my opinion.

The Eddowes murder in Mitra Square occured during the 12 minutes that the constable was away. I can't prove you wrong if you believe that a legally insane ripper just by chance struck then. I tend to agree with those who believe the ripper was aware of the rounds that the constables made. jtr knew he was taking big risks and was very careful and disappeared immediately when a potential witness approached as in the Liz Stride murder. A criminal mindset and not psychotic like Kosminski.

Well, it's an interesting idea that Jack had prowled his killing field before striking. Definitely in terms of he knew his way around and how to get out. I agree with you about that.

Jack timing coppers' rounds? Honestly, I don't believe so. Jack killed when he did because he had to. I think of it as blood lust. He just had to. He couldn't stop himself. Which is why he put himself in situations where he could have easily been caught.

I don't believe Jack had a criminal mind set. He was psychotic. But not to the point where he would be dribbling and scrounging around in gutters. Absolutely not. There was enough awareness of the real world left so he could appear to be normal.

If he didn't, then the prostitutes would never have gone with him.

I really suspect the ripper was like the btk killer. Blood lust was just incidental at the most! The main goal was to shock the community.. The btk killer's cruel treatment of his victims wasn't the main source of satisfaction for him either. Both these killers could abstain from murdering again for long periods of time because their murders would be continually relived in the press, community, etc..

Psychotics as a rule can't conceal their crimes. Hitchcock's Hotel Bates killer doesn't exist in reality!