Jack the Ripper

[gabriel]

I'll probably be talking to myself but that's OK. The most famous murderer London ever produced. This is a UK site so why not.

I posted a site last night but I see it's not working so. I thought I'd have a look at Jack because last night was the anniversary of the double event. Liz Stride in Berner St and Cathy Eddowes in Mitre Square.

MEPO was already searching for Jack after he killed Stride. An hour after she's found he's killed again and this time the City Police join the manhunt.

And still he gets clean away.

He had to have lived in the neighbourhood. He knew his way around the rabbit warrens of Whitechapel, in the dark, with blood on him. So he must have had a bolthole close by.

Stands to reason.

[gabriel]

I'm happy to discuss anything concerning Jack, not just the murders. The East End at the time, policemen concerned, suspects whatever.

[gabriel]

I think people have this idea of Jack killing in fog bound streets, jumping out at women. Or else being driven around in comfort in Hansom cabs.

And Inspector Fred Abberline being a drunk or an opium addict.

None of that is true.

[♫anna♫]

This was the first case of a modern serial killer-murder as a hobby- and the shock remains. There are certainly a lot of "jack the ripper" tours in the area where he roamed. English tabloids constantly claim to have discovered the ripper's true identity, but the case remains unsolved.

[Big Lin]

Of course, those of us who come from South London know who Jack the Ripper was.

It was local businessman Peter Cow who owned the rubber factory in Streatham and was actually arrested on suspicion of being Jack the Ripper after he made 'indecent advances' to a young woman.

[gabriel]

Wow lin. Where did you get that info from? I've never heard of him.

[♫anna♫]

I'm sceptical too Lin! A man with a Polish sounding name who lived near the site where the first murder occured was executed for murdering another woman years afterwards and was also suspected to be the ripper.

A German artist and an English aristocrat were also suspected, but the ripper was believed to have the knowledge of the human body that a doctor or perhaps a butcher would have.

[Big Lin]

The Peter Cow stuff comes from a book published this year by my Dad's friend. He's a professional historian - his previous books have all been about Germany from 1918 to 1945 - but this one is a light-hearted one which he wrote with his wife. It's called 'The Making of Modern Streatham' and written by Michael and Janet FitzGerald, published by the History Press.

Apparently Peter Cow and his family owned a local rubber factory in Streatham, South London, on the site of where the current Sainsbury's supermarket is, and he was known to frequent prostitutes.

He was apparently arrested and questioned by police after a woman complained about being accosted by him in what she found a not only sexually demeaning but also frightening way. She claimed that he was Jack the Ripper and apparently Cow didn't have any alibis for the dates of the murders but because he was a toff they let him go.

I don't know if it really WAS him but as someone who lived in Streatham for 9 years I'm pushing the claims to notoriety of a local villain!

[gabriel]

lin, from what I can find. Born 1815, died 1890. Make him 73 years old at the time of the murders. I'm interested in suspects but a septuagenarian Jack IMO would more likely have keeled over with a heart attack.

All the men described as being with the victims are described in their 20's or 30'. Maybe Cow (what a name) was Jack's mentor? Thanks for talking about him. I've never heard his name before.

[Deleted]

Wasn't there a suggestion that Jack had to be a woman, because otherwise the victims would never have been alone with him - especially in the later stages of his reign of terror?

[sadie1263]

I love stuff on Jack. Didn't Patricia Cornwell have a theory on some painter being the Ripper?

73 years old at the time of the murders.........was it Jack LeLane?

[Big Lin]

Cornwell's suspect was Walter Sickert.

[sadie1263]

Oct 3, 2009 22:27:23 GMT Big Lin said:

Cornwell's suspect was Walter Sickert.

Oh right!!! He did have some really twisted paintings..........don't know but it seemed her evidence wasn't any stronger than anyone else's

[♫anna♫]

This site has the pictures of who are claimed to be the major Jack the ripper suspects. Just click a picture and some info is given.
www.casebook.org/suspects/
This Peter Cow that Lin mentions isn't included here or on Wikipedia's suspect list ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_the_Ripper_suspects )!

I think this is the Ripper!
www.casebook.org/suspects/gchapman.html

[gabriel]

Yeah anna, when Chapman was arrested, Abberline was supposed to have remarked 'You've finally got Jack the Ripper' or words to that effect.

OK. And I'll ask what a lot of others have asked. Why would a guy who cut throats then mutilated their bodies, taking parts of their internal organs with him, suddenly stop doing that for a few years, then start poisoning? Makes no sense whatever and I personally don't believe, because of that, that Chapman was Jack. Although I can understand part of Abberline's reasoning. Polish Jew, living in Whitechapel at the time, been a barber surgeon.

But Chapman doesn't fit Jack's MO. Chapman was a sadist, he really enjoyed toying with his victims. Jack just killed them. Then he enjoyed himself. It wasn't the killing for him, it was the mutilation.

[♫anna♫]

Oct 4, 2009 6:33:48 GMT gabriel said:

Yeah anna, when Chapman was arrested, Abberline was supposed to have remarked 'You've finally got Jack the Ripper' or words to that effect.

OK. And I'll ask what a lot of others have asked. Why would a guy who cut throats then mutilated their bodies, taking parts of their internal organs with him, suddenly stop doing that for a few years, then start poisoning? Makes no sense whatever and I personally don't believe, because of that, that Chapman was Jack. Although I can understand part of Abberline's reasoning. Polish Jew, living in Whitechapel at the time, been a barber surgeon.

But Chapman doesn't fit Jack's MO. Chapman was a sadist, he really enjoyed toying with his victims. Jack just killed them. Then he enjoyed himself. It wasn't the killing for him, it was the mutilation.

Chapman had a personal relation to the women he poisoned. Chapman was also clever and the type of person who could get away with murders, unlike some of the more mentally unstable suspects.. Mutilating his 3 girlfriends would have made it obvious that they were murdered and he knew questions from the police would then be inevitable.

The first Jack the Ripper victim was found very close to his living quarters. It's the general rule of serial killers that the first murder is the closest to their living quarters!

He was indeed a murderer and in Poland was an assistant to a surgeon and had some knowledge of anatomy and with this knowledge could locate and remove body organs as the ripper did.

[trubble]

This is an interesting subject. I don't know much about it but I watched the Cornwell programme on BBC about Sickert and she didn't seem to be able to prove anything. The theory was fascinating anyway.

Someone has youtubed it in 6 episodes if anyone wants to watch it.

1/6

[♫anna♫]

Oct 4, 2009 21:36:14 GMT trubble said:

This is an interesting subject. I don't know much about it but I watched the Cornwell programme on BBC about Sickert and she didn't seem to be able to prove anything. The theory was fascinating anyway.

Someone has youtubed it in 6 episodes if anyone wants to watch it.

1/6

Interesting Trubble, but i don't believe that Sickert was the ripper, although he may have been one of the cranks ( and there was more than one ), who wrote letters to the police claiming to be the ripper.
Sickert obviously identified with the ripper and was one of the earliest murderer groupies. Psychopaths usually don't invest much time with phantasy, unless they're in prison. I still think the real ripper was Chapman, who hid behind a normal looking poker face most of the time and almost got away with poisoning his 3 girl friends.
www.casebook.org/suspects/sickert.html

I only looked at episodes 1 and 6 of Patricia Cornwell's videos.. I'll try to find time for the rest, but i'm pretty busy for now!

[everso]

Oct 2, 2009 15:12:53 GMT Big Lin said:

The Peter Cow stuff comes from a book published this year by my Dad's friend. He's a professional historian - his previous books have all been about Germany from 1918 to 1945 - but this one is a light-hearted one which he wrote with his wife. It's called 'The Making of Modern Streatham' and written by Michael and Janet FitzGerald, published by the History Press.

Apparently Peter Cow and his family owned a local rubber factory in Streatham, South London, on the site of where the current Sainsbury's supermarket is, and he was known to frequent prostitutes.

He was apparently arrested and questioned by police after a woman complained about being accosted by him in what she found a not only sexually demeaning but also frightening way. She claimed that he was Jack the Ripper and apparently Cow didn't have any alibis for the dates of the murders but because he was a toff they let him go.

I don't know if it really WAS him but as someone who lived in Streatham for 9 years I'm pushing the claims to notoriety of a local villain!

I'd be surprised, Lin, if The Ripper came from anywhere south of the river. Bearing in mind he/she (although I'm convinced it was a man) would have been covered in blood, a trip from Whitechapel back to Streatham would surely have given his game away?

We'll never know, of course, but my bet is that he was a local man, known to prostitutes. As Gabriel said, he knew his way around the rabbit warrens of Whitechapel.

Incidentally, my dad's family all came from the East End and my great-grandmother was born in 1880 and brought up in Wapping, not a million miles from Whitechapel. All the men were dockers, of course, and what hard lives they and their women had!

[gabriel]

Dockworkers would have had an extraordinarily hard life and it wouldn't have been fulltime work, I assume. They would have been hired when there was work. I think I'm correct.

Cornwell IMO found her suspect then looked for clues to back Sickert as Jack. If you really look carefully, there are holes in her theory. Let's face it, there are holes in all the theories if you really want to find them. It wasn't a royal or a toff. It wasn't Chapman and it wasn't Sickert. It could have been a doctor, could have, but I think it's highly unlikely.

He lived in the area because he knew his way around. He had a bolthole so he didn't have to travel any distance so it stands to reason he was a local. He wasn't threatening or intimidating because the pros went with him. He needn't have been saturated in blood because he always slashed the throat away from him, so the arterial flow didn't splash him. He would have had blood on him but as most men then wore dark clothes it wouldn't have necessarily been noticed if you walked casually past.

He killed in and around the area of the Spitalfield Markets so there were butchers, horse slaughterers, many more with legit reasons to have blood on them.

anna, after Miller's Court, it is just inconceivable to me and I remain unconvinced that he suddenly stopped of his own volition for a few years, then took to poisoning. The only reason Jack stopped was he killed himself/someone else killed him/he died of natural causes; he was incarcerated in prison or an asylum; he left the country.

[♫anna♫]

Oct 6, 2009 5:58:49 GMT gabriel said:

anna, after Miller's Court, it is just inconceivable to me and I remain unconvinced that he suddenly stopped of his own volition for a few years, then took to poisoning. The only reason Jack stopped was he killed himself/someone else killed him/he died of natural causes; he was incarcerated in prison or an asylum; he left the country.

The trademark of the ripper consisted of an awareness of the risk factors, never forgetting the danger of getting caught or even noticed. He'd vanish immediately, if a potential witness was approaching! I agree with you that generally these murderers become addicted to murder, but some like the btk killer and ( i believe ) the ripper stop their murders for years. With the final murder of Marie Kelly the ripper was able to fully commit the horrific form of murder that he apparently lusted for. Perhaps that stilled his lust for a time. Again he had plenty of experience with surgery in Poland too! Surgeons develope a special relationship to the human body and body parts!

I feel the ripper would have no trouble choosing another form of murder to avoid risks. Serial killers often do have a different relationship to the people they know personally. Really Gabriel, Chapman knew he'd be inmmediately suspect nr. 1, if he butchered his girl friends-and he did on occaison make threats to them with a knife. Chapman remains by far suspect nr. 1 in my book!

The suspect Feigenbaum was also clearly a murderer, but his only proven murder absorbed his attention completely and he was easily caught. Also only hearsay evidence and a money making lawyer place him in WhiteChapel at the time the ripper was active.
He probably never stepped on British soil.

[gabriel]

Oct 4, 2009 14:28:24 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

Oct 4, 2009 6:33:48 GMT gabriel said:

Yeah anna, when Chapman was arrested, Abberline was supposed to have remarked 'You've finally got Jack the Ripper' or words to that effect.

OK. And I'll ask what a lot of others have asked. Why would a guy who cut throats then mutilated their bodies, taking parts of their internal organs with him, suddenly stop doing that for a few years, then start poisoning? Makes no sense whatever and I personally don't believe, because of that, that Chapman was Jack. Although I can understand part of Abberline's reasoning. Polish Jew, living in Whitechapel at the time, been a barber surgeon.

But Chapman doesn't fit Jack's MO. Chapman was a sadist, he really enjoyed toying with his victims. Jack just killed them. Then he enjoyed himself. It wasn't the killing for him, it was the mutilation.

Chapman had a personal relation to the women he poisoned. Chapman was also clever and the type of person who could get away with murders, unlike some of the more mentally unstable suspects.. Mutilating his 3 girlfriends would have made it obvious that they were murdered and he knew questions from the police would then be inevitable.

The first Jack the Ripper victim was found very close to his living quarters. It's the general rule of serial killers that the first murder is the closest to their living quarters!

He was indeed a murderer and in Poland was an assistant to a surgeon and had some knowledge of anatomy and with this knowledge could locate and remove body organs as the ripper did.

Chapman did indeed have a personal relationship with his victims. That's what gave him his high. He enjoyed toying with them, poisoning them and watching them die.

Jack had no personal relationship with his victims. They were a means to an end. He throttles them, he cuts their throats, then he gets down to his 'mission'.

I enjoy discussing this with you anna. Bring it on about Chapman. Convince me. I don't 'know' who Jack was. I have an idea about the type of man he was and where he lived. I post on Casebook and the Ripper Forum so thanks for the links but I've read them before.

But there are posters who haven't even heard of these sites so it's great you've posted the links.

You are so passionate about Chapman so OK. Your ideas. Not someone else's. I'd be interested to hear.

Cheers

Gabriel

[♫anna♫]

Hi Gabriel!

I can't prove that Chapman is 100% definitely the ripper. I feel he's clearly number 1 as far as the known suspects go. I think only him and Feigenbaum are proven murderers. Changing the murder tactic has been done by some serial killers, like the "murder mac killers" in California, who wanted to try torturing their next victim with acid.

I think the tabloids make more money on the English aristocrat and Sickert theories. Chapman was a banal type of person with a violent streak as his girlfriends discovered. Some physical abuse and threats with the knife, but he doesn't excite the imagination.
Most serial killers are boring people, who couldn't play their own role in a Hollywood movie convincely. The Hannibal Lectors don't exist in reality.

Again as i mentioned the first victim was very close to his residence and this is a typical pattern of serial killers, who then seek their victims in an ever bigger circle around the area, where they have mobility. It's possible too that Chapman on occaisons greeted the girls briefly on the street and was not an unfamilar face to them.

Mrs. Cornwall's Sickert theory is just largely hysteria. Obviously Sickert as well as the suspect Kosminin phantasized about the ripper, but murder groupies are a dime a dozen. These people are satisfied living in a warped phantasy world, but never live these phantasies out. True they are both suspected of writing ripper letters to the police, but it's obvious that quite a number of deviant cranks were writing these letters.

Of course there is also an exception to the rule.

[gabriel]

Oct 7, 2009 12:16:41 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

Hi Gabriel!

I can't prove that Chapman is 100% definitely the ripper. I feel he's clearly number 1 as far as the known suspects go. I think only him and Feigenbaum are proven murderers. Changing the murder tactic has been done by some serial killers, like the "murder mac killers" in California, who wanted to try torturing their next victim with acid.

I think the tabloids make more money on the English aristocrat and Sickert theories. Chapman was a banal type of person with a violent streak as his girlfriends discovered. Some physical abuse and threats with the knife, but he doesn't excite the imagination.
Most serial killers are boring people, who couldn't play their own role in a Hollywood movie convincely. The Hannibal Lectors don't exist in reality.

Again as i mentioned the first victim was very close to his residence and this is a typical pattern of serial killers, who then seek their victims in an ever bigger circle around the area, where they have mobility. It's possible too that Chapman on occaisons greeted the girls briefly on the street and was not an unfamilar face to them.

Mrs. Cornwall's Sickert theory is just largely hysteria. Obviously Sickert as well as the suspect Kosminin phantasized about the ripper, but murder groupies are a dime a dozen. These people are satisfied living in a warped phantasy world, but never live these phantasies out. True they are both suspected of writing ripper letters to the police, but it's obvious that quite a number of deviant cranks were writing these letters.

Of course there is also an exception to the rule.

But why do you have Chapman (Severin Klosowski) as your prime suspect? You're right, murderers do change the way they kill but not a serial murderer like Jack.

Jack knew he wanted to kill. He didn't care which women he killed. He wasn't interested in them as people. He didn't have that personal connection you are quite right that Chapman had with his wives.
Jack was in it for his jollies. And he got them after he slit their throats.

[♫anna♫]

Oct 7, 2009 12:23:26 GMT gabriel said:

Oct 7, 2009 12:16:41 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

Hi Gabriel!

I can't prove that Chapman is 100% definitely the ripper. I feel he's clearly number 1 as far as the known suspects go. I think only him and Feigenbaum are proven murderers. Changing the murder tactic has been done by some serial killers, like the "murder mac killers" in California, who wanted to try torturing their next victim with acid.

I think the tabloids make more money on the English aristocrat and Sickert theories. Chapman was a banal type of person with a violent streak as his girlfriends discovered. Some physical abuse and threats with the knife, but he doesn't excite the imagination.
Most serial killers are boring people, who couldn't play their own role in a Hollywood movie convincely. The Hannibal Lectors don't exist in reality.

Again as i mentioned the first victim was very close to his residence and this is a typical pattern of serial killers, who then seek their victims in an ever bigger circle around the area, where they have mobility. It's possible too that Chapman on occaisons greeted the girls briefly on the street and was not an unfamilar face to them.

Mrs. Cornwall's Sickert theory is just largely hysteria. Obviously Sickert as well as the suspect Kosminin phantasized about the ripper, but murder groupies are a dime a dozen. These people are satisfied living in a warped phantasy world, but never live these phantasies out. True they are both suspected of writing ripper letters to the police, but it's obvious that quite a number of deviant cranks were writing these letters.

Of course there is also an exception to the rule.

But why do you have Chapman (Severin Klosowski) as your prime suspect? You're right, murderers do change the way they kill but not a serial murderer like Jack.

Jack knew he wanted to kill. He didn't care which women he killed. He wasn't interested in them as people. He didn't have that personal connection you are quite right that Chapman had with his wives.
Jack was in it for his jollies. And he got them after he slit their throats.

If the ripper was really so unaware of the danger of getting caught as you suggest he would have continued in that stereotypical manner. Perhaps the murder of Mary Kelly satisfied his desire to carve someone up in a cruel manner and he was ready to try new forms of murder.

How else could he have had a chance to get away with murdering his girlfriends without changing the ripper modus operandi?? Apparently he found poisoning them satisfying too since he committed these murders 3 times and almost got away with it. Had Chapman poisoned any of the prostitutes after Mary Kelly's murder i'm sure their deaths would have been dismissed routinely. Many of the girls had serious alcohol problems, not to mention the diseases, suicides and other life shortening risk factors.

Since he lived in WhiteChapel he was not an unfamilar face and the assumption that he didn't even have a fleeting relation to the local prostitutes-like the nice bloke, who would greet them nicely while passing by-is all just an assumption.