Jack the Ripper

[gabriel]

I hope this will open for you.

maps.google.com.au/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=108149809059135600806.00044b42d5f3cf87614db&z=15

East of Whitechapel you're heading into Stepney.

[♫anna♫]

Thanks Gabriel!
The ripper apparently never struck in Stepney.

[gabriel]

God, those illustrations of the victims make them all look like carthorses. And they weren't. I think going further east is probably the wrong direction. I'd have him heading for somewhere either south-east to Aldgate, or west towards Liverpool St Station.

He had to be within walking distance - even though dressed in dark clothes he still would have blood on him, some clotted as well. So he has to get somewhere where he can get changed and clean up. He wasn't using public or private transport so it's obvious his hole has to be somewhere he can get to quickly. Given the route he took after Mitre Sq, to dump Eddowes' apron in Gouldson St, could just have been a lucky chance but I don't think so.

I believe he knew the area extremely well but I don't think he actually lived in Whitechapel. It would be too much of a risk for Jack to chance being recognised.

So that's why I don't believe in a royal prince or a royal surgeon or Jack the mad top hatted toff from the West End.

[♫anna♫]

There was of course this fictional film about the Royal Surgeon killing these girls to keep a scandalous relationship with Mary Kelly that a prince had from becoming known. Pure fiction and anti-monarchy sentiment. I forget the film's name.

Since after the Eddowes murder the ripper goes towards the center of WhiteChapel again only turning left into Gouldson Street to dump evidence indicates or implies that he either lived or was lodging in WhiteChapel somewhere.

[♫anna♫]

It's surprising that the American Dr. Tumblety gets 2nd place among the most likely suspects on the list i posted. I think his uterus collections were more likely motivated by a desire to practice illegal abortions than a ripper obsession. He was a homosexual and targeting females in what most forensic expects describe as sexually motivated murders seems unlikely. If i'm not mistaken he was a rather big person too and probably clumsy. Tumblety was 55 years old in 1888, which is really old to get started as a serial killer. He was criminal to some extent and Scotland Yard informed the US authorities that he was a ripper suspect when he returned to the US.


Francis Tumblety
www.casebook.org/suspects/tumblety.html

[gabriel]

The latest film to follow Stephen's Knight's idea of Sir William Gull systematically killing pros to get at Kelly was called From Hell. It's either from the very late 90's or early 00's. Johnny Depp played Inspector Abberline as an opium addicted psychic who falls in love with Kelly then dies at the end of the film. I'm not sure if it was meant to be a comedy but the plot line was hilarious.

[♫anna♫]

Oct 14, 2009 21:53:59 GMT gabriel said:

The latest film to follow Stephen's Knight's idea of Sir William Gull systematically killing pros to get at Kelly was called From Hell. It's either from the very late 90's or early 00's. Johnny Depp played Inspector Abberline as an opium addicted psychic who falls in love with Kelly then dies at the end of the film. I'm not sure if it was meant to be a comedy but the plot line was hilarious.

Oh i remember now! The movie was "captivating" although it was a distorted fiction.

The English preoccupation with the Royal Family makes it inevitable that ripper suspects associated with them would make the popular suspect list. Gull was 71 to 72 years old in 1888-must have had some masonic powers going for him! ;D
Another absurdity is placing Lewis Carroll, the author of Alice in Wonderland, on the suspect list.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_William_Gull,_1st_Baronet

[gabriel]

One day, men will look back and say I gave birth to the 20th century. I actually think Jack would be chuffed to have such a great line attributed to him. From Hell is all wrong and I chuckle at the mistakes and wrong leaps in logic. But...it is a beautiful looking film. Whoever did the sets and the costumes and found the locations are at the top of their crafts.

Have a look at this trailer that Anna posted earlier and you'll see what I mean. The story is a load of bull and poor old Fred Abberline, who didn't die until 1929, would be spinning in his grave to be thought of as an opium smoking weirdo.

[gabriel]

OK Francis Tumblety. Strange name for a strange man. Det Littlechild brought him into view about 100 years ago. Homosexual so why he was ever followed is beyond me but the authorites didn't have the psychological profiling we have today. If he was a serial killer he would have gone after men, which is what male homosexual killers do. They prey on what attracts them.

Did Jack prey on what attracted him? Mostly middle aged pros? I don't think that's what Jack was about. Jack had serious mental problems that were built around women and a fairly easy guess would be his mother as Number One cause. I guess he had a bad experience/s with pros who were the only women he felt he could attract, so add in a deep seated inferiority complex where women were concerned. And a lack of any meaningful casual relationships with women.

I think Jack was a time bomb waiting to go off. And he did.

Think about his namesake, the Yorkshire Ripper. The same. Only difference, Jack didn't have a lorry.

[♫anna♫]

We certainly don't have enough information to convict anyone of the ripper murderers. Tabloids constantly claim to reveal the ripper's identity, but i think the best we can do is narrow things down to a strong suspect or two and a number of reasonable suspects and eliminate some hysterical tabloid nonsense.

George Barnett is number 5 on the suspect list i posted here a while back. I think it's absurd to claim he killed the other girls to scare his girl friend Mary Kelly off the streets. It's reasonable to examine the possibility that he murdered Mary Kelly in a copy kill fashion though, which would mean there was more than one ripper. Barnett didn't approve of Miss Kelly's prostitution and perhaps an alledged lesbian affair she was supposedly having too. True there is a lot of misinformation surrounding all the ripper suspects.
No one disputes the fact that Mr. Barnett worked cleaning ( disembowling ) fish and had a dispute with Miss Kelly, which resulted in the broken window. The fact that Miss Kelly's room was locked from the inside when her body was discovered is also curious. Barnett did alledgedly possess a room key.

Joseph Barnett
www.casebook.org/suspects/barnett.html

[gabriel]

Oct 15, 2009 20:49:39 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

We certainly don't have enough information to convict anyone of the ripper murderers. Tabloids constantly claim to reveal the ripper's identity, but i think the best we can do is narrow things down to a strong suspect or two and a number of reasonable suspects and eliminate some hysterical tabloid nonsense.

George Barnett is number 5 on the suspect list i posted here a while back. I think it's absurd to claim he killed the other girls to scare his girl friend Mary Kelly off the streets. It's reasonable to examine the possibility that he murdered Mary Kelly in a copy kill fashion though, which would mean there was more than one ripper. Barnett didn't approve of Miss Kelly's prostitution and perhaps an alledged lesbian affair she was supposedly having too. True there is a lot of misinformation surrounding all the ripper suspects.
No one disputes the fact that Mr. Barnett worked cleaning ( disembowling ) fish and had a dispute with Miss Kelly, which resulted in the broken window. The fact that Miss Kelly's room was locked from the inside when her body was discovered is also curious. Barnett did alledgedly possess a room key.
Joseph Barnett
www.casebook.org/suspects/barnett.html

That locked door is a big mystery in Kelly's murder. Not so much that it was locked - Jack probably put his hand back through the broken window to latch it - but that McCarthy, the owner of the building, didn't get his own key to unlock the door. I'm not aware of his offering to do that (although he may have and that fact was never recorded anywhere) nor can I find evidence that the police asked him. Which is why it's always struck me as odd that the police broke the door down later that afternoon. Surely one of them could have done what Kelly and Barnett and Jack did - hand through the broken window.

[♫anna♫]

The police were certainly careless by modern day investigating standards. Mary Kelly's liver, kidneys and uterus were left behind by the murderer in this case. Alledgedly the heart was missing.

The only so-called ripper letter that i believe may be from the killer is the "From Hell" letter with the human kidney, which a doctor believed was taken from a 45 year old heavy drinking female. "Mishter Lusk" perhaps didn't like the name Jack the ripper.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Hell_letter

[gabriel]

Anna, that was a letter received by George Lusk, head of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee. They were local men who patrolled the streets and tried to help out however they could to catch Jack. This letter is supposedly from Jack accompanied, as you say, by a human kidney. The theory is that it was cut from Cathy Eddowes. The kidney, not the letter.

I've always thought this was hoax although the kidney was human. I think it was either a set up by a medical student, or a journalist, or most likely a journalist working with a med student. You know, they were desperate to sell newspapers even back then and what better to spice up circulation than Jack sending a kidney.

But if it really was Jack, IMO, he would have sent it to the police, not to a relatively unknown man. A ploy to raise newspaper sales and also, I suspect, a payback of some kind on Lusk.

[♫anna♫]

Oct 16, 2009 6:45:47 GMT gabriel said:

Anna, that was a letter received by George Lusk, head of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee. They were local men who patrolled the streets and tried to help out however they could to catch Jack. This letter is supposedly from Jack accompanied, as you say, by a human kidney. The theory is that it was cut from Cathy Eddowes. The kidney, not the letter.

I've always thought this was hoax although the kidney was human. I think it was either a set up by a medical student, or a journalist, or most likely a journalist working with a med student. You know, they were desperate to sell newspapers even back then and what better to spice up circulation than Jack sending a kidney.

But if it really was Jack, IMO, he would have sent it to the police, not to a relatively unknown man. A ploy to raise newspaper sales and also, I suspect, a payback of some kind on Lusk.

It's amazing the number of so called ripper letters that were sent.. Over a thousand as i understand. The newspapers in that era were desperate and scrupulous when trying to make sales increase.

I read the biography of the Irish gangster Dion O'Bannion "Guns and Roses" and he started out selling newspapers, during the Chicago newspaper war. Both the Chicago Tribune and Chicago Star hired gangsters to sell their newspapers. The rival gangsters attacked not only each other on the street, but readers of the rival newspaper as well. Newspaper wars were occuring all over the US and maybe in Britain too. Forging letters to increase sales then would seem to be just part of business. A weak economy really brings out the bad side!

[gabriel]

There's not a lot of difference from writing 'From Hell' to writing the Maybrick diary. Personally, I can think of better things to do with my time than forgery but anyway. Just shows you there are 'interesting' people to be found in any generation.

BTW, what did Lewis Carroll do to get on a Ripper wannabe list?

[♫anna♫]

Oct 17, 2009 5:45:34 GMT gabriel said:

There's not a lot of difference from writing 'From Hell' to writing the Maybrick diary. Personally, I can think of better things to do with my time than forgery but anyway. Just shows you there are 'interesting' people to be found in any generation.

BTW, what did Lewis Carroll do to get on a Ripper wannabe list?

Lewis Carroll did absolutely nothing to make the ripper list! He was rather old in 1888 and was never known to frequent WhiteChapel. Some screwy guy with the last name Wallace felt his "Alice in Wonderland" writings were written in a code, which
he broke and claims that the ripper murders are described. If you want a laugh i could post a sample, but it's not worthy of a serious discussion!

Forgery is a lucrative business and you're probably right about the ripper letters being the work of profiteering journalists.

[gabriel]

This guy wouldn't be related to Dan Brown? Or Michael Moore? Carroll was probably smoking something illegal when he wrote about Alice and her friends but where you'd get Jack out of Through the Looking Glass is completely beyond me.

[♫anna♫]

You're asking for it Gabe! ;D Lewis Carroll was only a penname and his real name was Dodgson! I think this Richard Wallace was
really screwy, but i'm sure he made money with his slanderous bunkem that only the really gullible and ignorant swallow.
www.casebook.org/suspects/carroll.html QUOTE:
For example he ( Wallace ) takes this passage from Dodgson's ( Lewis Carroll's ) 'Nursery Alice':

'So she wondered away, through the wood, carrying the ugly little thing with her. And a great job it was to keep hold of it, it wriggled about so. But at last she found out that the proper way was to keep tight hold of itself foot and its right ear'.

and turns it into:

'She wriggled about so! But at last Dodgson and Bayne found a way to keep hold of the fat little whore. I got a tight hold of her and slit her throat, left ear to right. It was tough, wet, disgusting, too. So weary of it, they threw up - jack the Ripper.'

[gabriel]

Oct 17, 2009 6:24:58 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

You're asking for it Gabe! ;D Lewis Carroll was only a penname and his real name was Dodgson! I think this Richard Wallace was
really screwy, but i'm sure he made money with his slanderous bunkem that only the really gullible and ignorant swallow.
www.casebook.org/suspects/carroll.html QUOTE:
For example he ( Wallace ) takes this passage from Dodgson's ( Lewis Carroll's ) 'Nursery Alice':

'So she wondered away, through the wood, carrying the ugly little thing with her. And a great job it was to keep hold of it, it wriggled about so. But at last she found out that the proper way was to keep tight hold of itself foot and its right ear'.

and turns it into:

'She wriggled about so! But at last Dodgson and Bayne found a way to keep hold of the fat little whore. I got a tight hold of her and slit her throat, left ear to right. It was tough, wet, disgusting, too. So weary of it, they threw up - jack the Ripper.'

I knew Carroll was a pen name but what load of cr**!

However, being slightly interested in Jack !!! any possible suspetcs are always worth discussing. But not Carroll.

Let's talk about witnesses. Israel Schwartz on Liz Stride. Levi on Eddowes.
Same night, an hour's difference (app). Schwartz, the cops thought great.
IMO, Levi and Lawende, coming down Duke St, past the Synagogue, much better witnesses.

Lawende saw Eddowes and Jack. I'm absolutely convinced of that. At the edge of Church Passage. I believe he saw Jack.

I've seen the murder sights. I've sat in Mitre Sq. I believe Lawende saw Jack.

[♫anna♫]

Oct 17, 2009 12:33:51 GMT gabriel said:

Oct 17, 2009 6:24:58 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

You're asking for it Gabe! ;D Lewis Carroll was only a penname and his real name was Dodgson! I think this Richard Wallace was
really screwy, but i'm sure he made money with his slanderous bunkem that only the really gullible and ignorant swallow.
www.casebook.org/suspects/carroll.html QUOTE:
For example he ( Wallace ) takes this passage from Dodgson's ( Lewis Carroll's ) 'Nursery Alice':

'So she wondered away, through the wood, carrying the ugly little thing with her. And a great job it was to keep hold of it, it wriggled about so. But at last she found out that the proper way was to keep tight hold of itself foot and its right ear'.

and turns it into:

'She wriggled about so! But at last Dodgson and Bayne found a way to keep hold of the fat little whore. I got a tight hold of her and slit her throat, left ear to right. It was tough, wet, disgusting, too. So weary of it, they threw up - jack the Ripper.'

I knew Carroll was a pen name but what load of cr**!

However, being slightly interested in Jack !!! any possible suspetcs are always worth discussing. But not Carroll.

Let's talk about witnesses. Israel Schwartz on Liz Stride. Levi on Eddowes.
Same night, an hour's difference (app). Schwartz, the cops thought great.
IMO, Levi and Lawende, coming down Duke St, past the Synagogue, much better witnesses.

Lawende saw Eddowes and Jack. I'm absolutely convinced of that. At the edge of Church Passage. I believe he saw Jack.

I've seen the murder sights. I've sat in Mitre Sq. I believe Lawende saw Jack.

Israel Schwartz alledgedly identified Kosminski, but if true maybe he witnessed some altercation that the 2 had and the ripper was nearby..Of course Kosminski is a prime suspect too!

[♫anna♫]

There are plenty of tours of the ripper murder scenes and some of them are on YouTube like this one.

Part 1 )
Part 2 )

[gabriel]

Anna, thanks so much for posting those youtube sites. I've watched the 1st video and looks like I'll have lots more viewing ahead. For anyone with some interest in the Ripper, these videos are easy to watch and give you a good idea of Jack's killing field. I find the old photos particularly interesting.

You're absolutely right about Kosminski. He is a serious candidate as a suspect. McNaughton named him and Swanson confirmed him. There's no getting around that kind of evidence.

[♫anna♫]

We certainly can't ignore the eyewitnesses linking Kosminski to the last minutes of Catherine Eddowes' life. Usually however psychotics, who commit murder are easily caught after their first murder.

I believe that for instance the Yorkshire ripper faked his insanity-his talk about the talking Polish tombstone-a well rehearsed act-and he was committed to a more comforable psychiatric prison.

I believe the ripper was a psychopath-a cold blooded evildoer, that is evil and not insane! They are good at this ability to blend in like a chameleon..I believe the ripper murdered for the thrill, sensation or "kick" and not as a payback for wrongdoings by females in his life...

Kosminski expressed alledgedly a great hatred towards women, especially prostitutes! A man named Jacob Cohen claimed Kosminski threatened his sister with a knife.
www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/ripper/kosminski_15.html
The researcher Philip Sugden found that according to hospital records Kosminski wasn't committed to the insane asylum at Colney Hatch until 1891 and not 1889 as other sources claim. Kosminski lived for 28 years in psychiatric detention and with the exception of one threatening gesture was peaceful. Kosminski's threats and verbal hatred don't really seem to translate into actions. The clear "history of evil" that i would expect from the ripper seems to be missing.

Kosminski gets 2nd place on my suspect list because of the witnesses.

[gabriel]

As with McNaughton's three, there are problems with Druitt, Kosminiski and certainly Ostrog. I just don't believe Ostrog was a goer. There are probs with Druitt and there are certainly probls with Kosminski, chief, as you say, the timing of his incarceration and the fact that he didn't die until many years later. And I think he was mad as a hatter. Which doesn't preclude him from being Jack. I certainly think Jack's mental state would have deteriorated as the murders took place. And I think after Miller's Ct Jack would have imploded.

I can't get away from the fact that Kosminksi was recorded as a suspect by senior police. And that's a problem many researchers with far more knowledge of the subject and access to greater resources than I have, have had to contend with.

As to why prostitutes. Well, I think Jack hated women and prostitutes were/are so vulnerable. But you could also argue that Jack was after easy prey and there were so many of them, willing to put themselves in dangerous situations so they could spend a night in one of those appalling doss houses.

Do you know, many of them slept leaning against a rope slung between 2 walls. They didn't even sleep in a bed. They slept standing up.

Not much of a life, was it?

[♫anna♫]

I think Druitt and Ostrog can be virtually eliminated as suspects, if certain sources are accurate.

It seems that Macnaghten's evidence that Druitt was the ripper was based on the utterances of some of Druitt's family members. A family plagued with mental illness! The link below also mentions the improbability of murdering Anne Chapman in WhiteChapel and making it back to Blackheath in time to play cricket as you also mentioned!
www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/ripper/druitt_14.html QUOTE:
There does not seem to be any real evidence as to why Macnaghten considered him a serious suspect. The only suggestion is that cryptic message of Macnaghten's: "from private information I have little doubt but that his own family believed him to have been the murderer." Macnaghten claimed he had destroyed all of the relevant documents, so the answer may never be known.

Ostrog born in 1833 would have been 54 to 55 years old in 1888.
I've never heard of a serial killer starting at that age. Ostrog didn't seem to have any history of violence..
wapedia.mobi/en/Jack_the_Ripper_suspects QUOTE:
Research by author Philip Sugden discovered prison records showing that Ostrog was jailed for petty offences in France during the Ripper murders