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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 4, 2009 14:28:24 GMT
Yeah anna, when Chapman was arrested, Abberline was supposed to have remarked 'You've finally got Jack the Ripper' or words to that effect. OK. And I'll ask what a lot of others have asked. Why would a guy who cut throats then mutilated their bodies, taking parts of their internal organs with him, suddenly stop doing that for a few years, then start poisoning? Makes no sense whatever and I personally don't believe, because of that, that Chapman was Jack. Although I can understand part of Abberline's reasoning. Polish Jew, living in Whitechapel at the time, been a barber surgeon. But Chapman doesn't fit Jack's MO. Chapman was a sadist, he really enjoyed toying with his victims. Jack just killed them. Then he enjoyed himself. It wasn't the killing for him, it was the mutilation. Chapman had a personal relation to the women he poisoned. Chapman was also clever and the type of person who could get away with murders, unlike some of the more mentally unstable suspects.. Mutilating his 3 girlfriends would have made it obvious that they were murdered and he knew questions from the police would then be inevitable. The first Jack the Ripper victim was found very close to his living quarters. It's the general rule of serial killers that the first murder is the closest to their living quarters! He was indeed a murderer and in Poland was an assistant to a surgeon and had some knowledge of anatomy and with this knowledge could locate and remove body organs as the ripper did.
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Post by trubble on Oct 4, 2009 21:36:14 GMT
This is an interesting subject. I don't know much about it but I watched the Cornwell programme on BBC about Sickert and she didn't seem to be able to prove anything. The theory was fascinating anyway.
Someone has youtubed it in 6 episodes if anyone wants to watch it.
1/6
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 5, 2009 15:22:00 GMT
This is an interesting subject. I don't know much about it but I watched the Cornwell programme on BBC about Sickert and she didn't seem to be able to prove anything. The theory was fascinating anyway. Someone has youtubed it in 6 episodes if anyone wants to watch it. 1/6 Interesting Trubble, but i don't believe that Sickert was the ripper, although he may have been one of the cranks ( and there was more than one ), who wrote letters to the police claiming to be the ripper. Sickert obviously identified with the ripper and was one of the earliest murderer groupies. Psychopaths usually don't invest much time with phantasy, unless they're in prison. I still think the real ripper was Chapman, who hid behind a normal looking poker face most of the time and almost got away with poisoning his 3 girl friends. www.casebook.org/suspects/sickert.html I only looked at episodes 1 and 6 of Patricia Cornwell's videos.. I'll try to find time for the rest, but i'm pretty busy for now!
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Post by everso on Oct 5, 2009 18:28:37 GMT
The Peter Cow stuff comes from a book published this year by my Dad's friend. He's a professional historian - his previous books have all been about Germany from 1918 to 1945 - but this one is a light-hearted one which he wrote with his wife. It's called 'The Making of Modern Streatham' and written by Michael and Janet FitzGerald, published by the History Press. Apparently Peter Cow and his family owned a local rubber factory in Streatham, South London, on the site of where the current Sainsbury's supermarket is, and he was known to frequent prostitutes. He was apparently arrested and questioned by police after a woman complained about being accosted by him in what she found a not only sexually demeaning but also frightening way. She claimed that he was Jack the Ripper and apparently Cow didn't have any alibis for the dates of the murders but because he was a toff they let him go. I don't know if it really WAS him but as someone who lived in Streatham for 9 years I'm pushing the claims to notoriety of a local villain! I'd be surprised, Lin, if The Ripper came from anywhere south of the river. Bearing in mind he/she (although I'm convinced it was a man) would have been covered in blood, a trip from Whitechapel back to Streatham would surely have given his game away? We'll never know, of course, but my bet is that he was a local man, known to prostitutes. As Gabriel said, he knew his way around the rabbit warrens of Whitechapel. Incidentally, my dad's family all came from the East End and my great-grandmother was born in 1880 and brought up in Wapping, not a million miles from Whitechapel. All the men were dockers, of course, and what hard lives they and their women had!
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Post by gabriel on Oct 6, 2009 5:58:49 GMT
Dockworkers would have had an extraordinarily hard life and it wouldn't have been fulltime work, I assume. They would have been hired when there was work. I think I'm correct.
Cornwell IMO found her suspect then looked for clues to back Sickert as Jack. If you really look carefully, there are holes in her theory. Let's face it, there are holes in all the theories if you really want to find them. It wasn't a royal or a toff. It wasn't Chapman and it wasn't Sickert. It could have been a doctor, could have, but I think it's highly unlikely.
He lived in the area because he knew his way around. He had a bolthole so he didn't have to travel any distance so it stands to reason he was a local. He wasn't threatening or intimidating because the pros went with him. He needn't have been saturated in blood because he always slashed the throat away from him, so the arterial flow didn't splash him. He would have had blood on him but as most men then wore dark clothes it wouldn't have necessarily been noticed if you walked casually past.
He killed in and around the area of the Spitalfield Markets so there were butchers, horse slaughterers, many more with legit reasons to have blood on them.
anna, after Miller's Court, it is just inconceivable to me and I remain unconvinced that he suddenly stopped of his own volition for a few years, then took to poisoning. The only reason Jack stopped was he killed himself/someone else killed him/he died of natural causes; he was incarcerated in prison or an asylum; he left the country.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 6, 2009 16:20:19 GMT
anna, after Miller's Court, it is just inconceivable to me and I remain unconvinced that he suddenly stopped of his own volition for a few years, then took to poisoning. The only reason Jack stopped was he killed himself/someone else killed him/he died of natural causes; he was incarcerated in prison or an asylum; he left the country. The trademark of the ripper consisted of an awareness of the risk factors, never forgetting the danger of getting caught or even noticed. He'd vanish immediately, if a potential witness was approaching! I agree with you that generally these murderers become addicted to murder, but some like the btk killer and ( i believe ) the ripper stop their murders for years. With the final murder of Marie Kelly the ripper was able to fully commit the horrific form of murder that he apparently lusted for. Perhaps that stilled his lust for a time. Again he had plenty of experience with surgery in Poland too! Surgeons develope a special relationship to the human body and body parts! I feel the ripper would have no trouble choosing another form of murder to avoid risks. Serial killers often do have a different relationship to the people they know personally. Really Gabriel, Chapman knew he'd be inmmediately suspect nr. 1, if he butchered his girl friends-and he did on occaison make threats to them with a knife. Chapman remains by far suspect nr. 1 in my book! The suspect Feigenbaum was also clearly a murderer, but his only proven murder absorbed his attention completely and he was easily caught. Also only hearsay evidence and a money making lawyer place him in WhiteChapel at the time the ripper was active. He probably never stepped on British soil.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 7, 2009 11:40:33 GMT
Yeah anna, when Chapman was arrested, Abberline was supposed to have remarked 'You've finally got Jack the Ripper' or words to that effect. OK. And I'll ask what a lot of others have asked. Why would a guy who cut throats then mutilated their bodies, taking parts of their internal organs with him, suddenly stop doing that for a few years, then start poisoning? Makes no sense whatever and I personally don't believe, because of that, that Chapman was Jack. Although I can understand part of Abberline's reasoning. Polish Jew, living in Whitechapel at the time, been a barber surgeon. But Chapman doesn't fit Jack's MO. Chapman was a sadist, he really enjoyed toying with his victims. Jack just killed them. Then he enjoyed himself. It wasn't the killing for him, it was the mutilation. Chapman had a personal relation to the women he poisoned. Chapman was also clever and the type of person who could get away with murders, unlike some of the more mentally unstable suspects.. Mutilating his 3 girlfriends would have made it obvious that they were murdered and he knew questions from the police would then be inevitable. The first Jack the Ripper victim was found very close to his living quarters. It's the general rule of serial killers that the first murder is the closest to their living quarters! He was indeed a murderer and in Poland was an assistant to a surgeon and had some knowledge of anatomy and with this knowledge could locate and remove body organs as the ripper did. Chapman did indeed have a personal relationship with his victims. That's what gave him his high. He enjoyed toying with them, poisoning them and watching them die. Jack had no personal relationship with his victims. They were a means to an end. He throttles them, he cuts their throats, then he gets down to his 'mission'. I enjoy discussing this with you anna. Bring it on about Chapman. Convince me. I don't 'know' who Jack was. I have an idea about the type of man he was and where he lived. I post on Casebook and the Ripper Forum so thanks for the links but I've read them before. But there are posters who haven't even heard of these sites so it's great you've posted the links. You are so passionate about Chapman so OK. Your ideas. Not someone else's. I'd be interested to hear. Cheers Gabriel
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 7, 2009 12:16:41 GMT
Hi Gabriel!
I can't prove that Chapman is 100% definitely the ripper. I feel he's clearly number 1 as far as the known suspects go. I think only him and Feigenbaum are proven murderers. Changing the murder tactic has been done by some serial killers, like the "murder mac killers" in California, who wanted to try torturing their next victim with acid.
I think the tabloids make more money on the English aristocrat and Sickert theories. Chapman was a banal type of person with a violent streak as his girlfriends discovered. Some physical abuse and threats with the knife, but he doesn't excite the imagination. Most serial killers are boring people, who couldn't play their own role in a Hollywood movie convincely. The Hannibal Lectors don't exist in reality.
Again as i mentioned the first victim was very close to his residence and this is a typical pattern of serial killers, who then seek their victims in an ever bigger circle around the area, where they have mobility. It's possible too that Chapman on occaisons greeted the girls briefly on the street and was not an unfamilar face to them.
Mrs. Cornwall's Sickert theory is just largely hysteria. Obviously Sickert as well as the suspect Kosminin phantasized about the ripper, but murder groupies are a dime a dozen. These people are satisfied living in a warped phantasy world, but never live these phantasies out. True they are both suspected of writing ripper letters to the police, but it's obvious that quite a number of deviant cranks were writing these letters.
Of course there is also an exception to the rule.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 7, 2009 12:23:26 GMT
Hi Gabriel! I can't prove that Chapman is 100% definitely the ripper. I feel he's clearly number 1 as far as the known suspects go. I think only him and Feigenbaum are proven murderers. Changing the murder tactic has been done by some serial killers, like the "murder mac killers" in California, who wanted to try torturing their next victim with acid. I think the tabloids make more money on the English aristocrat and Sickert theories. Chapman was a banal type of person with a violent streak as his girlfriends discovered. Some physical abuse and threats with the knife, but he doesn't excite the imagination. Most serial killers are boring people, who couldn't play their own role in a Hollywood movie convincely. The Hannibal Lectors don't exist in reality. Again as i mentioned the first victim was very close to his residence and this is a typical pattern of serial killers, who then seek their victims in an ever bigger circle around the area, where they have mobility. It's possible too that Chapman on occaisons greeted the girls briefly on the street and was not an unfamilar face to them. Mrs. Cornwall's Sickert theory is just largely hysteria. Obviously Sickert as well as the suspect Kosminin phantasized about the ripper, but murder groupies are a dime a dozen. These people are satisfied living in a warped phantasy world, but never live these phantasies out. True they are both suspected of writing ripper letters to the police, but it's obvious that quite a number of deviant cranks were writing these letters. Of course there is also an exception to the rule. But why do you have Chapman (Severin Klosowski) as your prime suspect? You're right, murderers do change the way they kill but not a serial murderer like Jack. Jack knew he wanted to kill. He didn't care which women he killed. He wasn't interested in them as people. He didn't have that personal connection you are quite right that Chapman had with his wives. Jack was in it for his jollies. And he got them after he slit their throats.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 7, 2009 12:48:08 GMT
Hi Gabriel! I can't prove that Chapman is 100% definitely the ripper. I feel he's clearly number 1 as far as the known suspects go. I think only him and Feigenbaum are proven murderers. Changing the murder tactic has been done by some serial killers, like the "murder mac killers" in California, who wanted to try torturing their next victim with acid. I think the tabloids make more money on the English aristocrat and Sickert theories. Chapman was a banal type of person with a violent streak as his girlfriends discovered. Some physical abuse and threats with the knife, but he doesn't excite the imagination. Most serial killers are boring people, who couldn't play their own role in a Hollywood movie convincely. The Hannibal Lectors don't exist in reality. Again as i mentioned the first victim was very close to his residence and this is a typical pattern of serial killers, who then seek their victims in an ever bigger circle around the area, where they have mobility. It's possible too that Chapman on occaisons greeted the girls briefly on the street and was not an unfamilar face to them. Mrs. Cornwall's Sickert theory is just largely hysteria. Obviously Sickert as well as the suspect Kosminin phantasized about the ripper, but murder groupies are a dime a dozen. These people are satisfied living in a warped phantasy world, but never live these phantasies out. True they are both suspected of writing ripper letters to the police, but it's obvious that quite a number of deviant cranks were writing these letters. Of course there is also an exception to the rule. But why do you have Chapman (Severin Klosowski) as your prime suspect? You're right, murderers do change the way they kill but not a serial murderer like Jack. Jack knew he wanted to kill. He didn't care which women he killed. He wasn't interested in them as people. He didn't have that personal connection you are quite right that Chapman had with his wives. Jack was in it for his jollies. And he got them after he slit their throats. If the ripper was really so unaware of the danger of getting caught as you suggest he would have continued in that stereotypical manner. Perhaps the murder of Mary Kelly satisfied his desire to carve someone up in a cruel manner and he was ready to try new forms of murder. How else could he have had a chance to get away with murdering his girlfriends without changing the ripper modus operandi?? Apparently he found poisoning them satisfying too since he committed these murders 3 times and almost got away with it. Had Chapman poisoned any of the prostitutes after Mary Kelly's murder i'm sure their deaths would have been dismissed routinely. Many of the girls had serious alcohol problems, not to mention the diseases, suicides and other life shortening risk factors. Since he lived in WhiteChapel he was not an unfamilar face and the assumption that he didn't even have a fleeting relation to the local prostitutes-like the nice bloke, who would greet them nicely while passing by-is all just an assumption.
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Post by everso on Oct 7, 2009 22:27:17 GMT
Dockworkers would have had an extraordinarily hard life and it wouldn't have been fulltime work, I assume. They would have been hired when there was work. I think I'm correct. Yes, you are correct. Often it was a case of who you knew. My dad was a docker and before de-casualisation (in the 60s) it was always touch and go as to whether he'd have a full week's work. Some weeks he'd earn good money, other weeks not much at all.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 8, 2009 5:44:41 GMT
This is an interesting subject. I don't know much about it but I watched the Cornwell programme on BBC about Sickert and she didn't seem to be able to prove anything. The theory was fascinating anyway. Someone has youtubed it in 6 episodes if anyone wants to watch it. 1/6 Gosh Trubble! I got around to watching the rest of Mrs. Cornwell's videos! I had a good impression of her in the first video! Her voice is almost identical to Jodi Foster's voice and i immediately thought of the film "The Silence of the Lambs" and how Jodi Foster, playing the role of an FBI agent tracked down a serial killer. I was very disappointed when Cornwell tried to dismiss the evidence that the ripper had a knowledge of anatomy! She claims the ripper would just slash, grab by coincidence and stash key human organs away . Her case against Sickert is just a shadow of a shadow! Imagine her presenting Sickert's paintings to a jury with comments like "Doesn't this look like it could be blood".. Oh, we must have a conviction! Yeah Sickert was creepy and seemed to be fascinated by murder scenes, but aren't a lot of tabloid readers like that. The ripper was alledged to be the first modern serial killer! OK, are there any serial killers among the suspects? Yes! George Chapman! The 2nd modern serial killer? Or suspect number 1? The problem with "Ripperologists" is that they want to get into the head of the ripper and Chapman disappoints them so they refuse to accept the obvious!
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Post by gabriel on Oct 8, 2009 9:59:33 GMT
anna, Jack wasn't the 1st serial killer. Mary Ann Cotton killed a few dozen and Dr William Palmer was in for his fair share. They both killed around about 20 - 30 years before Jack. They were both poisoners. They had intimate relationships with their victims. Just like Chapman/Klosowski. He was a classic poisoner. He was not a knife wielder like Jack. Chapman did not kill on the streets. Chapman did not go looking for victims. None of the poisoners do. They are very organised. They kill people they have access to and they have a very strong chance of not being suspected. Unless they get careless or greedy. Which is why we know that Cotton, Palmer and Chapman were poisoners.
Jack was a disorganised killer and he ran huge risks. I don't think he cared whether or not he was caught. Once the blood lust was on him he couldn't have cared less. There was no planning to Jack's murders. There were the similarities which allow us to follow this single murderer.
everso, are there any insights you can share with us about the East End and Docklands around your great-grandmother's time? Anything she might have shared with your family?
You see, I reckon Jack was just an ordinary bloke (with a lot of problems). He wasn't rich, he wasn't well born, probably not well educated. He wasn't swanning around Whitechapel in a cape, wearing evening clothes and flashing jewellery. He wouldn't have lasted 5 mins before he'd lost the lot. It was a rough place, especially Dorset St. Even the cops didn't like walking down there unless they were in number.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 8, 2009 14:09:46 GMT
Dearest Gabriel! If the ripper didn't care about being caught he wouldn't have vanished as he did when a potential witness was approaching. He would have continued his slashing with witnesses crying for help and a crowd of spectators gathering as in the Feigenbaum case. I agree Jack was primitive and very violent, but like a savage lone wolf he fled when detected. I believe the murder of Martha Tabram ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Tabram ), which occured near Chapman's shop was the first ripper murder. When Chapman was living in the US the ripper type murder of Carrie Brown ( www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-carrieb.html ) occured in New York, which was a short train ride away from Jersey City and his barber shop. The author of the link i quote below places ripper murders in Jersey City, but this may be incorrect. www.casebook.org/ripper_media/rps.trialgeorge.html QUOTE: JACK-THE-RIPPER CHAPMAN 1 ) First murder of the series committed, in August, 1888. Chapman arrived in London some time in 1888; worked and lived in Whitechapel. 2 ) Other murders committed during 1888. During this time Chapman was within easy reach of the scenes of these murders. It was thought that Jack-the-Ripper had medical knowledge. Chapman had been a medical student. 3 ) Description given of the man seen with the woman Kelly: "Height, 5 ft. 6in.; age, 34 or 35; dark complexion, with moustache curled at ends." This is a most faithful description of Chapman. 4 ) The Americanisms in the letter and card written to the police. Chapman passed himself off as an American and used Americanisms in conversation. The grim and callous joking tone of the messages. Chapman was very callous, and was in the habit of indulging in pleasantries of this sort. 5 ) Last murder in London, July, 1889. Chapman still in the vicinity. No Ripper murders in England, but similar murders in America, in the locality of Jersey City. Chapman and his wife left in May, 1890, for America, where Chapman opened a barber's shop at Jersey City. At the beginning of 1892 Ripper murders cease in America. Chapman left America and returned to London in May, 1892. It is evident that before he committed his last murder Jaek-the-Ripper realised that the game was becoming too hazardous; this is borne out by the fact that considerable time elapsed between the commission of his later murders, and his last crime was obviously perpetrated indoors to afford him greater security. If Chapman was actually Jack-the-Ripper, poisoning, as a much safer means of killing, might easily have suggested itself to him. Having changed his method, it became, of course, imperative that he should seek an entirely different class of victim. Chief Inspector Abberline, who had charge of the investigations into the East End murders, thought that Chapman and Jack-the-Ripper were one and the same person. He closely questioned the Polish woman, Lucy Baderaki, about Chapman's nightly habits at the time of the murders. She said that he was often out until three or four o'clock in the morning, but she could throw little light upon these absences. Both Inspector Abberline and Inspector Godley spent years in investigating the "Ripper" murders. Abberline never wavered in his firm conviction that Chapman and Jack-the-Ripper were one and the same person. When Godley arrested Chapman Abberline said to his confrere "You've got Jack-the-Ripper at last!" That Chapman's career coincides exactly with the movements and operations of Jack-the-Ripper must appeal strongly to all who endeavour to throw light upon the shadows of the latter's obscurity. The whole of Chapman's life cannot be made quite clear. At his trial the prosecution proved that he murdered Mrs. Spink, Bessie Taylor, and Maud Marsh; but as they made no effort to discover others no one can say, with confidence, how many murders he committed. A reasonable case for supposing that Chapman was Jack-the-Ripper has, at least, been furnished. At that the subject must be left, without material proof of the connection. Upon that strange period of Chapman's career, when he worked and lodged in Whitechapel, no new light can be shed, and the identity of Jack-the-Ripper will for ever remain a mystery.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 8, 2009 14:20:49 GMT
He was not a knife wielder like Jack. Chapman did not kill on the streets. . This statement is apparently incorrect! www.suite101.com/lesson.cfm/18593/1947/3 QUOTE: George Chapman George Chapman AKA Severin Klosowski (not to be confused with Aaron Kosminski) fit the police description of the people who alleged to have seen Jack. A Polish Jew, hairdresser and barber by trade, and resident of Whitechapel, he was a strong suspect for the crimes. The body of Martha Tabram, a woman murdered shortly before the Ripper killings, was found close to his shop. He was known to have a violent, homicidal streak. He was accused of poisoning three women, and was convicted of one murder, for which he was hanged. He was single at the time of the murders and would have been able to roam around at night. The only drawback to his being the Ripper is that he was much younger than the witnesses described. Chapman was only twenty three in 1888. Though Chapman was known for poisoning women, he had attempted to murder his first wife with a knife. It is possible that he switched to poisoning women to escape detection when Jack the Ripper gained too much notoriety.
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