Jack the Ripper

[everso]

Oct 6, 2009 5:58:49 GMT gabriel said:

Dockworkers would have had an extraordinarily hard life and it wouldn't have been fulltime work, I assume. They would have been hired when there was work. I think I'm correct.

Yes, you are correct. Often it was a case of who you knew.

My dad was a docker and before de-casualisation (in the 60s) it was always touch and go as to whether he'd have a full week's work. Some weeks he'd earn good money, other weeks not much at all.

[♫anna♫]

Oct 4, 2009 21:36:14 GMT trubble said:

This is an interesting subject. I don't know much about it but I watched the Cornwell programme on BBC about Sickert and she didn't seem to be able to prove anything. The theory was fascinating anyway.

Someone has youtubed it in 6 episodes if anyone wants to watch it.

1/6

Gosh Trubble!
I got around to watching the rest of Mrs. Cornwell's videos! I had a good impression of her in the first video! Her voice is almost identical to Jodi Foster's voice and i immediately thought of the film "The Silence of the Lambs" and how Jodi Foster, playing the role of an FBI agent tracked down a serial killer.

I was very disappointed when Cornwell tried to dismiss the evidence that the ripper had a knowledge of anatomy! She claims the ripper would just slash, grab by coincidence and stash key human organs away . Her case against Sickert is just a shadow of a shadow! Imagine her presenting Sickert's paintings to a jury with comments like "Doesn't this look like it could be blood".. Oh, we must have a conviction! Yeah Sickert was creepy and seemed to be fascinated by murder scenes, but aren't a lot of tabloid readers like that.

The ripper was alledged to be the first modern serial killer! OK, are there any serial killers among the suspects? Yes! George Chapman! The 2nd modern serial killer? Or suspect number 1?

The problem with "Ripperologists" is that they want to get into the head of the ripper and Chapman disappoints them so they refuse to accept the obvious!

[gabriel]

anna, Jack wasn't the 1st serial killer. Mary Ann Cotton killed a few dozen and Dr William Palmer was in for his fair share. They both killed around about 20 - 30 years before Jack. They were both poisoners. They had intimate relationships with their victims. Just like Chapman/Klosowski. He was a classic poisoner. He was not a knife wielder like Jack. Chapman did not kill on the streets. Chapman did not go looking for victims. None of the poisoners do. They are very organised. They kill people they have access to and they have a very strong chance of not being suspected. Unless they get careless or greedy. Which is why we know that Cotton, Palmer and Chapman were poisoners.

Jack was a disorganised killer and he ran huge risks. I don't think he cared whether or not he was caught. Once the blood lust was on him
he couldn't have cared less. There was no planning to Jack's murders. There were the similarities which allow us to follow this single murderer.

everso, are there any insights you can share with us about the East End and Docklands around your great-grandmother's time? Anything she might have shared with your family?

You see, I reckon Jack was just an ordinary bloke (with a lot of problems).
He wasn't rich, he wasn't well born, probably not well educated. He wasn't swanning around Whitechapel in a cape, wearing evening clothes and flashing jewellery. He wouldn't have lasted 5 mins before he'd lost the lot. It was a rough place, especially Dorset St. Even the cops didn't like walking down there unless they were in number.

[♫anna♫]

Dearest Gabriel!
If the ripper didn't care about being caught he wouldn't have vanished as he did when a potential witness was approaching.
He would have continued his slashing with witnesses crying for help and a crowd of spectators gathering as in the Feigenbaum case. I agree Jack was primitive and very violent, but like a savage lone wolf he fled when detected.

I believe the murder of Martha Tabram
( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Tabram ), which occured near Chapman's shop was the first ripper murder. When Chapman was living in the US the ripper type murder of Carrie Brown ( www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-carrieb.html ) occured in New York, which was a short train ride away from Jersey City and his barber shop. The author of the link i quote below places ripper murders in Jersey City, but this may be incorrect. www.casebook.org/ripper_media/rps.trialgeorge.html QUOTE:
JACK-THE-RIPPER CHAPMAN
1 ) First murder of the series committed, in August, 1888. Chapman arrived in London some time in 1888; worked and lived in Whitechapel.

2 ) Other murders committed during 1888. During this time Chapman was within easy reach of the scenes of these murders.
It was thought that Jack-the-Ripper had medical knowledge. Chapman had been a medical student.

3 ) Description given of the man seen with the woman Kelly: "Height, 5 ft. 6in.; age, 34 or 35; dark complexion, with moustache curled at ends." This is a most faithful description of Chapman.

4 ) The Americanisms in the letter and card written to the police. Chapman passed himself off as an American and used Americanisms in conversation.
The grim and callous joking tone of the messages. Chapman was very callous, and was in the habit of indulging in pleasantries of this sort.

5 ) Last murder in London, July, 1889. Chapman still in the vicinity.
No Ripper murders in England, but similar murders in America, in the locality of Jersey City. Chapman and his wife left in May, 1890, for America, where Chapman opened a barber's shop at Jersey City.
At the beginning of 1892 Ripper murders cease in America. Chapman left America and returned to London in May, 1892.


It is evident that before he committed his last murder Jaek-the-Ripper realised that the game was becoming too hazardous; this is borne out by the fact that considerable time elapsed between the commission of his later murders, and his last crime was obviously perpetrated indoors to afford him greater security. If Chapman was actually Jack-the-Ripper, poisoning, as a much safer means of killing, might easily have suggested itself to him. Having changed his method, it became, of course, imperative that he should seek an entirely different class of victim.

Chief Inspector Abberline, who had charge of the investigations into the East End murders, thought that Chapman and Jack-the-Ripper were one and the same person. He closely questioned the Polish woman, Lucy Baderaki, about Chapman's nightly habits at the time of the murders. She said that he was often out until three or four o'clock in the morning, but she could throw little light upon these absences. Both Inspector Abberline and Inspector Godley spent years in investigating the "Ripper" murders. Abberline never wavered in his firm conviction that Chapman and Jack-the-Ripper were one and the same person. When Godley arrested Chapman Abberline said to his confrere "You've got Jack-the-Ripper at last!"

That Chapman's career coincides exactly with the movements and operations of Jack-the-Ripper must appeal strongly to all who endeavour to throw light upon the shadows of the latter's obscurity. The whole of Chapman's life cannot be made quite clear. At his trial the prosecution proved that he murdered Mrs. Spink, Bessie Taylor, and Maud Marsh; but as they made no effort to discover others no one can say, with confidence, how many murders he committed. A reasonable case for supposing that Chapman was Jack-the-Ripper has, at least, been furnished. At that the subject must be left, without material proof of the connection. Upon that strange period of Chapman's career, when he worked and lodged in Whitechapel, no new light can be shed, and the identity of Jack-the-Ripper will for ever remain a mystery.

[♫anna♫]

Oct 8, 2009 9:59:33 GMT gabriel said:

He was not a knife wielder like Jack. Chapman did not kill on the streets. .

This statement is apparently incorrect!
www.suite101.com/lesson.cfm/18593/1947/3 QUOTE:
George Chapman

George Chapman AKA Severin Klosowski (not to be confused with Aaron Kosminski) fit the police description of the people who alleged to have seen Jack. A Polish Jew, hairdresser and barber by trade, and resident of Whitechapel, he was a strong suspect for the crimes.

The body of Martha Tabram, a woman murdered shortly before the Ripper killings, was found close to his shop. He was known to have a violent, homicidal streak. He was accused of poisoning three women, and was convicted of one murder, for which he was hanged. He was single at the time of the murders and would have been able to roam around at night.

The only drawback to his being the Ripper is that he was much younger than the witnesses described. Chapman was only twenty three in 1888. Though Chapman was known for poisoning women, he had attempted to murder his first wife with a knife. It is possible that he switched to poisoning women to escape detection when Jack the Ripper gained too much notoriety.

[sadie1263]

Hmmmmm....the two of you are making this very interesting. I agree that Cornwell's show was interesting.......but to me it seemed that she made up her mind from the beginning that Seikart was the killer and so she interpreted everything to fit that theory instead of letting the evidence speak for itself. Course if I had a few million dollars of my own riding on the theory I might be tempted to do that also.

Going to have to refresh my memory on all of this so I can join the debate.

[♫anna♫]

Welcome to the case detective Sadie!
This 6 part documentary about the ripper case sticks more to the facts than Cornwell's speculations.


On the list below are the known and imagined suspects! As you see my number 1 suspect Chapman is rated number 6 so there are obviously a lot of disagreements on how to interpret the evidence and who to suspect. BTW you can vote on who you think is suspect number 1 by going to the link.
www.casebook.org/suspects/suspect_av.html QUOTE:
1. Maybrick, James
2. Tumblety, Francis
3. Sickert Walter
4. Royal Conspiracy
5. Barnett, Joseph
6. Chapman, George
7. Kosminski, Aaron
8. Lodger, The
9. Druitt, Montague John
10. Jill the Ripper
11. Bury, W.H.
12. Thompson, Francis
13. Stephenson, R. D'Onston
14. Ostrog, Michael
15. Hutchinson, George (Br.)
16. Albert Victor, Prince
17. Cream, Dr. Thomas Neill
18. Kelly, James
19. Stephen, James Kenneth
20. Pedachenko, Dr.
21. Deeming, Frederick Bailey
22. Carroll, Lewis

[gabriel]

Oct 8, 2009 14:09:46 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

Dearest Gabriel!
If the ripper didn't care about being caught he wouldn't have vanished as he did when a potential witness was approaching.
He would have continued his slashing with witnesses crying for help and a crowd of spectators gathering as in the Feigenbaum case. I agree Jack was primitive and very violent, but like a savage lone wolf he fled when detected.

I believe the murder of Martha Tabram
( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Tabram ), which occured near Chapman's shop was the first ripper murder. When Chapman was living in the US the ripper type murder of Carrie Brown ( www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-carrieb.html ) occured in New York, which was a short train ride away from Jersey City and his barber shop. The author of the link i quote below places ripper murders in Jersey City, but this may be incorrect. www.casebook.org/ripper_media/rps.trialgeorge.html QUOTE:
JACK-THE-RIPPER CHAPMAN
1 ) First murder of the series committed, in August, 1888. Chapman arrived in London some time in 1888; worked and lived in Whitechapel.

2 ) Other murders committed during 1888. During this time Chapman was within easy reach of the scenes of these murders.
It was thought that Jack-the-Ripper had medical knowledge. Chapman had been a medical student.

3 ) Description given of the man seen with the woman Kelly: "Height, 5 ft. 6in.; age, 34 or 35; dark complexion, with moustache curled at ends." This is a most faithful description of Chapman.

4 ) The Americanisms in the letter and card written to the police. Chapman passed himself off as an American and used Americanisms in conversation.
The grim and callous joking tone of the messages. Chapman was very callous, and was in the habit of indulging in pleasantries of this sort.

5 ) Last murder in London, July, 1889. Chapman still in the vicinity.
No Ripper murders in England, but similar murders in America, in the locality of Jersey City. Chapman and his wife left in May, 1890, for America, where Chapman opened a barber's shop at Jersey City.
At the beginning of 1892 Ripper murders cease in America. Chapman left America and returned to London in May, 1892.


It is evident that before he committed his last murder Jaek-the-Ripper realised that the game was becoming too hazardous; this is borne out by the fact that considerable time elapsed between the commission of his later murders, and his last crime was obviously perpetrated indoors to afford him greater security. If Chapman was actually Jack-the-Ripper, poisoning, as a much safer means of killing, might easily have suggested itself to him. Having changed his method, it became, of course, imperative that he should seek an entirely different class of victim.

Chief Inspector Abberline, who had charge of the investigations into the East End murders, thought that Chapman and Jack-the-Ripper were one and the same person. He closely questioned the Polish woman, Lucy Baderaki, about Chapman's nightly habits at the time of the murders. She said that he was often out until three or four o'clock in the morning, but she could throw little light upon these absences. Both Inspector Abberline and Inspector Godley spent years in investigating the "Ripper" murders. Abberline never wavered in his firm conviction that Chapman and Jack-the-Ripper were one and the same person. When Godley arrested Chapman Abberline said to his confrere "You've got Jack-the-Ripper at last!"

That Chapman's career coincides exactly with the movements and operations of Jack-the-Ripper must appeal strongly to all who endeavour to throw light upon the shadows of the latter's obscurity. The whole of Chapman's life cannot be made quite clear. At his trial the prosecution proved that he murdered Mrs. Spink, Bessie Taylor, and Maud Marsh; but as they made no effort to discover others no one can say, with confidence, how many murders he committed. A reasonable case for supposing that Chapman was Jack-the-Ripper has, at least, been furnished. At that the subject must be left, without material proof of the connection. Upon that strange period of Chapman's career, when he worked and lodged in Whitechapel, no new light can be shed, and the identity of Jack-the-Ripper will for ever remain a mystery.

anna, which of the murders are you talking about here? Tabram I don't believe was Jack's work but still, no-one saw a man with her. Nichols - no-one saw a man with her. Chapman - Mrs Long testified at the inquest she saw Chapman with a man outside 29 Hanbury St not long before Chapman died. The man didn't run away.

Stride - multiple witness (but probably the only reliable one was Israel Schwartz) saw Stride with multiple men before she died. Cathy Eddowes - no man was sighted but I think Jack was in Mitre Sq and in the middle of his mission when the PC's looked in on their patrols. Kelly - seen with mutiple men by multiple witnesses.

So where is any possible Jack scarpering when anyone else showed up ? If you have evidence for this I'd really be interested.

And Jack like murders in Jersey City? Do you have dates and names? I've heard of one murder that authors have tried to tie in to Jack (to back up their theories). A pro, circa 1890 in NY city. Again, if you have new info, I'd be interested.

[gabriel]

Oct 8, 2009 14:20:49 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

Oct 8, 2009 9:59:33 GMT gabriel said:

He was not a knife wielder like Jack. Chapman did not kill on the streets. .

This statement is apparently incorrect!
www.suite101.com/lesson.cfm/18593/1947/3 QUOTE:
George Chapman

George Chapman AKA Severin Klosowski (not to be confused with Aaron Kosminski) fit the police description of the people who alleged to have seen Jack. A Polish Jew, hairdresser and barber by trade, and resident of Whitechapel, he was a strong suspect for the crimes.

The body of Martha Tabram, a woman murdered shortly before the Ripper killings, was found close to his shop. He was known to have a violent, homicidal streak. He was accused of poisoning three women, and was convicted of one murder, for which he was hanged. He was single at the time of the murders and would have been able to roam around at night.

The only drawback to his being the Ripper is that he was much younger than the witnesses described. Chapman was only twenty three in 1888. Though Chapman was known for poisoning women, he had attempted to murder his first wife with a knife. It is possible that he switched to poisoning women to escape detection when Jack the Ripper gained too much notoriety.

anna, are you tallking about Lucy Baderski, Klosowski's 1st and probably only legal wife? They moved to New Jersey but she left him there and returned to London. He followed later then between 1895 and 1903 he poisoned the 3 women who lived with him as his 'wives'. Where did he attack Lucy with a knife? I'm certain it wasn't on the street. Klosowski was a subtle murderer, he used poison.

1888 to 1895 that's 7 years. So your theory is that Jack, after what he did in Miller's Court, just stops killing for 7 years (even maybe trying an unproven murder with a knife). Then he suddenly springs back into action by poisoning 3 women over an 8 year period?

I'm way away from being convinced. This just doesn't follow any pattern that we know about serial killers. And you must remember, all of this speculation about Klosowski comes from Abberline who'd been out of the force and living in retirement in Devon for at least 10 years. He was probably looking for a reasonable suspect and sure, Klosowski, why not? But Abberline wasn't in the 'know' any more and it's a real pity he opened his mouth at all. Because all he really did was muddy the waters.

[♫anna♫]

Dearest Gabriel!
Who's your candidate for suspect number 1 as the ripper?

As far as the Carrie Brown murder goes, which Chapman could have committed apparently this was done in New York, which was a short train ride from Jersey City. Yes there are plenty of mistaken claims that get quoted ad absurdum. The link i quoted on the Carrie Brown murder in the post you quoted gives a suspect description, which could apply to Chapman. I doubt that prostitution existed in Jersey City so if Chapman was the ripper he'd probably have to take the short train ride to NY. A witness raises suspicions that he was on a train back to Jersey City after the murder of Carrie Brown.
One fact of serial killers is that they generally find victims at an ever increasing distance from their residence to avoid getting caught.

As far as Chapman's knife attack on his first wife goes this link, which you should read in it's entirity describes it! The link confirms that Chapman's violent domestic abuse continued with his other wives!
www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/ripper/chapman_17.html QUOTE:
He ( Chapman ) first showed his violent streak when he attacked his wife. She claimed that he "held her down on the bed, and pressed his face against her mouth to keep her from screaming. At that moment a customer entered the shop immediately in front of the room, and Klosowski got up to attend him. Lucy chanced to see a handle protruding from underneath the pillow. She found to her horror that it was a sharp and formidable knife, which she promptly hid. Later, deliberately he told her that he meant to have cut her head off, and pointed to a place in the room where he meant to have buried her. She said, "'But the neighbors would have asked where I had gone to."

"Oh," retorted Klosowski calmly. "I should simply have told them that you had gone back to New York."

[♫anna♫]

Oct 3, 2009 20:18:45 GMT @skylark said:

Wasn't there a suggestion that Jack had to be a woman, because otherwise the victims would never have been alone with him - especially in the later stages of his reign of terror?

Dearest SkyLark!
"Jill the Ripper" is the name given to this theoretical female suspect. The Ripper was obviously pretty strong to cut so deeply through his victims necks, while they were probably struggling. I think most females and the weaker male ripper suspects could be ruled out because of this. But i've been googling around a bit and found this. The suspect Pearcey did commit 2 knife murders as the link shows.

Mrs. Mary Pearcey
www.casebook.org/suspects/jill.html

[gabriel]

Oct 9, 2009 21:25:00 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

Dearest Gabriel!
Who's your candidate for suspect number 1 as the ripper?

As far as the Carrie Brown murder goes, which Chapman could have committed apparently this was done in New York, which was a short train ride from Jersey City. Yes there are plenty of mistaken claims that get quoted ad absurdum. The link i quoted on the Carrie Brown murder in the post you quoted gives a suspect description, which could apply to Chapman. I doubt that prostitution existed in Jersey City so if Chapman was the ripper he'd probably have to take the short train ride to NY. A witness raises suspicions that he was on a train back to Jersey City after the murder of Carrie Brown.
One fact of serial killers is that they generally find victims at an ever increasing distance from their residence to avoid getting caught.

As far as Chapman's knife attack on his first wife goes this link, which you should read in it's entirity describes it! The link confirms that Chapman's violent domestic abuse continued with his other wives!
www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/ripper/chapman_17.html QUOTE:
He ( Chapman ) first showed his violent streak when he attacked his wife. She claimed that he "held her down on the bed, and pressed his face against her mouth to keep her from screaming. At that moment a customer entered the shop immediately in front of the room, and Klosowski got up to attend him. Lucy chanced to see a handle protruding from underneath the pillow. She found to her horror that it was a sharp and formidable knife, which she promptly hid. Later, deliberately he told her that he meant to have cut her head off, and pointed to a place in the room where he meant to have buried her. She said, "'But the neighbors would have asked where I had gone to."

"Oh," retorted Klosowski calmly. "I should simply have told them that you had gone back to New York."

anna, this doesn't say that he attacked her with a knife. He obviously was abusive in his relationships (let's face it, you don't go round poisoning your partners just because you're bored). Sounds to me like part of his sadistic gamesmanship. This does not prove he attacked Lucy with a knife.
If he was really going to kill her, he'd render her unconscious, deal with the customer, lock the shop, then either kill her while she was out to it or more likely wake her up so he could have his fun.

You suggest that he took a train to NJ to kill this woman, any woman, then calmly didn't bother with any more knife attacks. That just doesn't add up. These guys can't help themselves. Look at the night of the double murder when Jack did Stride and Eddowes. He was, I'm convinced, disturbed with Stride, that's why he went back on the prowl. His rage, his need to kill was so strong that he had to find another woman and he did, within the next hour. That Jack wouldn't take a train to NJ then calmly return to NY then sail back to England, wait a few years, then start poisoning.

[gabriel]

I don't believe a woman was responsible. Why would a pro go with a woman when the pro's out scouting for customers? The victims would have initially resisted but Jack throttled them first into unconsciousness. Then, on the ground, head turned away from him, throat cut with the knife, arterial blood pumping away from him, and Jack gets his jollies.

Mary Pearcey killed her lover's wife and his daughter out of jealousy. Nothing at all to do with Jack.

anna, I stopped having a 'suspect' for Jack years ago. Like I posted earlier, I believe I can describe Jack - where he lived, his age, possibly his motivation - but I can't put a name to him. So many 'theories' are based on trying to cram facts to fit a suspect and that's not the way to run an investigation. That's what Stephen Knight did in the 70's and that's what Cornwell's trying to do this decade. In the 90's, it was that goddawful Maybrick diary.

I can't prove Klowowski wasn't Jack. And Abberline's comments as I said muddy the waters. But I remain unconvinced that a man would wield a knife on the streets after pros, wait years and years, then turn to poison.

You can't overlook McNaughton. He named Druitt, Ostrog and Klosminski. I have spent many years believing in Druitt as Jack but I have big reservations on that now.

[♫anna♫]

Oct 10, 2009 5:39:33 GMT gabriel said:

I don't believe a woman was responsible. Why would a pro go with a woman when the pro's out scouting for customers? The victims would have initially resisted but Jack throttled them first into unconsciousness. Then, on the ground, head turned away from him, throat cut with the knife, arterial blood pumping away from him, and Jack gets his jollies.

Mary Pearcey killed her lover's wife and his daughter out of jealousy. Nothing at all to do with Jack.

anna, I stopped having a 'suspect' for Jack years ago. Like I posted earlier, I believe I can describe Jack - where he lived, his age, possibly his motivation - but I can't put a name to him. So many 'theories' are based on trying to cram facts to fit a suspect and that's not the way to run an investigation. That's what Stephen Knight did in the 70's and that's what Cornwell's trying to do this decade. In the 90's, it was that goddawful Maybrick diary.

I can't prove Klowowski wasn't Jack. And Abberline's comments as I said muddy the waters. But I remain unconvinced that a man would wield a knife on the streets after pros, wait years and years, then turn to poison.

You can't overlook McNaughton. He named Druitt, Ostrog and Klosminski. I have spent many years believing in Druitt as Jack but I have big reservations on that now.

No i don't think Pearcey is a serious suspect! A jealousy murder and perhaps the child was probably a witness, who she eliminated.

As far as Chapman goes i don't understand why some people feel that the fact that he was proven to have murdered his 3 girlfriends with poison makes him less of a ripper suspect. I think the jump from being a ripper type serial killer to a poisoner serial killer is much shorter than for a non-murderer to become a serial killer. Serial killers are extremely rare creatures-about one in a million.

I admit we don't have solid evidence to convict Chapman of the ripper murderers, but he's still suspect number 1 on my list.

Klosminski is often associated with the kosher slaughter of cattle with throat cutting.. a lot of anti-Jewish sentiment surrounds him.
And he was truly insane. I'm not familar with Druitt.
Ostrog just seems like such a weakling-which the ripper undoubtable wasn't, but if it's true that he carried around a collection of surgical cutting instruments that does raise an eyebrow.

[gabriel]

Sir Melville McNaughton wrote a confidential memo around about 1892 to the Home Office. It was dealing with a bloke called Cuthbert who was wandering around poking girls in the bum with a knife. He wanted to make sure they didn't think this Cuthbert was Jack (which he wasn't) and he gave 'his' 3 top suspects.

Ostrog I entirely dismiss because he was basically a thief and any violence he may have demonstrated was to get him out of being found to be a thief.

Kosminski can't be proved despite the best efforts of Fido, Begg and the other great researchers who have spent 20 or so years trawling through the archives of asylums, workhouses etc. But, IMO, a man like Kosminski is closer to Jack than Maybrick or Prince Eddie.

Montague John Druitt was a barrister and teacher. He was 31 years old when he drowned himself in the Thames in Dec '88.

[♫anna♫]

The alledged Jack the Ripper diary which supposedly reveals James Maybrick as the ripper is interesting. I'm not convinced and Maybrick doesn't seem like the type.

Part1/6

[♫anna♫]

I disagree that a criminal mindset, here a thief, etc. makes someone less likely to become a murderer. On the contrary many serial killers started earlier with other crimes. I don't know if Ostrog always had his beard, if so that weakens the case against him.

www.casebook.org/suspects/ostrog.html

[♫anna♫]

Aaron Kosminski was alledgedly identified by a witness as having an altercation with one of the girls, who was murdered shortly afterwards. He's the favorite suspect of people, who don't like Jews.

www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/ripper/kosminski_15.html

[♫anna♫]

Oct 10, 2009 5:39:33 GMT gabriel said:

You can't overlook McNaughton. He named Druitt, Ostrog and Klosminski. I have spent many years believing in Druitt as Jack but I have big reservations on that now.

As far as Druitt goes as well as the very well forged ( i believe ) Maybrick diary.
i don't believe the ripper had any remorse or conscience. Commiting acts that evil and repeating them is crossing far beyond the point of no return. I'd like to believe that the worst of the murderers suffer from guilt, but the facts don't support this.
Since these 2 suspect theories are associated with remorse they fall way to the bottom of my suspect list.

[gabriel]

Thanks for posting the illustrations anna. The one big fact about Druitt that still makes him interesting as a suspect was the fact that he committed suicide at the right time if you believe, as I do, that Jack never killed again after Miller's Ct. He's also round about the correct age from witness statements but that's about it.

When I read the Maybrick Diary, shortly after it was 1st published, I thought, wow! This is incredible. But, it was too good to be true. If there was any chance of provenance for the diary, maybe, just maybe. But there isn't. As you say, a fabulous piece of forgery. A lot of care and thought went into it. I don't believe Mike Barrett produced the diary. I don't think he was clever enough. I would like to know who did produce the diary.

[gabriel]

www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/image_galleries/jack_the_ripper_gallery.shtml?3

Jack the Ripper
You are in: London > History > Jack the Ripper > Photos: Jack the Ripper

Photos: Jack the Ripper

Part of a police report on finding the body of Mary Ann Nichols, 31 August 1888.

I visited the Museum at Docklands last year. Totally fascinating experience.

[♫anna♫]

Oct 11, 2009 5:43:38 GMT gabriel said:

Thanks for posting the illustrations anna. The one big fact about Druitt that still makes him interesting as a suspect was the fact that he committed suicide at the right time if you believe, as I do, that Jack never killed again after Miller's Ct. He's also round about the correct age from witness statements but that's about it.

When I read the Maybrick Diary, shortly after it was 1st published, I thought, wow! This is incredible. But, it was too good to be true. If there was any chance of provenance for the diary, maybe, just maybe. But there isn't. As you say, a fabulous piece of forgery. A lot of care and thought went into it. I don't believe Mike Barrett produced the diary. I don't think he was clever enough. I would like to know who did produce the diary.

www.casebook.org/suspects/druitt.html
The timeline with Druitt corresponds and the popular belief that a person couldn't live with his conscience after such murders sways people to support the Druitt theory. He doesn't seem to have that conspicious moustache that the ripper alledgedly had, at least in these pictures!

I'm sure whoever forged the Maybrick diary is profiting from it! My belief is that the forger is a ripperologist and maybe had access or was an insider to the information that wasn't released until 1987. Still the ink and all have withstood forensic tests.

The graffitti that was probably random and not associated with the ripper about the Jewes is said to really spell James
( Maybrick ) for the diary believers. The wording of the graffitti too is different, depending on the source or link!
www.answers.com/topic/jack-the-ripper

[gabriel]

Good old Montagu John. If McNaughton hadn't mentioned him, I doubt anyone would have ever placed him anywhere near a Jack suspect. Big downer for him is that he was off playing cricket the day one of the early victims was found - Nicholls, I think. A spot of serial killing then anyone for cricket? Just doesn't gel, not for me.

I agree with you about the Diary. Someone who really knows their stuff wrote that. And what an audacious choice to name Jack as a murder victim well known to history buffs. It's got everything going for it, except the truth.

[gabriel]

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6164544.stm

Last Updated: Monday, 20 November 2006, 10:53 GMT


Jack the Ripper's face 'revealed'

The case has fascinated people for decades
An e-fit showing what detectives believe serial killer Jack the Ripper looked like has been revealed.
Using new profiling techniques, investigators have created a picture of what they believe the 19th Century murderer would have looked like.

The man, who evaded police in the 1880s, is thought to have killed and mutilated five London prostitutes.

The Scotland Yard team describe him as "frighteningly normal" but someone capable of "extraordinary cruelty".

And investigators have admitted that police at the time were probably searching for the wrong kind of man.

Head of analysis for Scotland Yard's Violent Crime Command Laura Richards, who has studied serial killer Fred West and Soham murderer Ian Huntley, revisited the case using modern police techniques.

She brought together a team of experts, including pathologists, historians and a geographical profiler, to find out if the case could ever be solved.

The result has been the most accurate physical, geographical and psychological portrait of the Ripper ever put together.


This is further than anyone else has got. It would have been enough for coppers to get out and start knocking on doors... they would have got him

Ms Richards said the 118-year-old evidence shows the Ripper was between the ages of 25 and 35, between 5ft 5ins and 5ft 7ins tall. He was also of stocky build.

Investigators have even been able to pinpoint his address.

Ms Richards said: "For the first time, we are able to understand the kind of person Jack the Ripper was.

"We can name the street where he probably lived; and we can see what he looked like; and we can explain, finally, why this killer eluded justice."

Metropolitan Police Commander John Grieve, who has worked with the team of experts, believes the killer would have been caught if officers at the time had this new information.

"This is further than anyone else has got," he said. "It would have been enough for coppers to get out and start knocking on doors... they would have got him."

Dubbed Britain's first serial killer, the Ripper is believed to have killed at least five prostitutes in Whitechapel, east London, in 1888, but was never caught.

His victims were stabbed, with some of the bodies badly mutilated and even having organs removed. Some believed he had medical training.

Celebrity suspects

The pseudonym Jack the Ripper was coined from a letter sent to a London news agency at the time of the murders, supposedly from the killer himself, but which police later dismissed as a hoax.

Using their experience of modern-day crime to examine 13 different witness statements taken at the time of the killings, the team were left with a picture of someone Ms Richards described as "perfectly sane, frighteningly normal, and yet capable of extraordinary cruelty".
Mr Grieve added: "It's a popular misconception that nobody ever saw the murderer, that he just vanished into the fog of London.

"Well that's just not right. There were witnesses at the time who were highly thought of by the police.

"If we were doing this investigation today, we could pool together all these descriptions and the kind of face that the police were clearly looking for.

"You could come up with a composite and you can go beyond just a full face, you can get something that really helps the police to look for suspects."

This is a few years old but still interesting. He has some slight, and I mean slight, resemblance to Druitt.

[♫anna♫]

It seems like everyone has their prime suspects. In the pictures at least Druitt seems a bit on the frail side. True Chapman was 23 when the murders started, but some serial killer types start as teenagers. I think the computer's attempt to determine where the ripper lived neglects the fact that the woman the ripper targeted-easy to approach prostitutes-were primarily in WhiteChapel. Gabriel what district was further east of WhiteChapel? It's my suspicion that the district east of WhiteChapel was probably void of prostitution and the women there would be harder and riskier to approach. Perhaps the computer neglects this.


George Chapman/Severin Klosowski
www.suite101.com/lesson.cfm/18593/1945/5 QUOTE:
Shortly before her death, Mary was seen by a neighbor woman. She was wearing a dark, shabby skirt, red jacket and no hat. The neighbor said Mary was accompanied by a man with a thick, carroty mustache. She described him as being dressed in dark clothing and wearing a black billycock hat.

At 2:00 AM, witness George Hutchinson saw Mary with another man near the Queen's Head pub. He gave a lengthy description of this gentleman who was "Jewish looking", with a heavy dark mustache, wearing a soft felt hat, a long dark coat, and white collar with black necktie. He also had a massive gold chain in his waistcoat. He had kid gloves in his right hand and a small package in his left. He saw the man give Mary Kelly a red handkerchief.