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Post by riotgrrl on Nov 2, 2010 18:25:15 GMT
I agree with Anna that the turning of mass murderers into cult figures and even celebrities of sort is stomach-churning.
However, I disagree with Anna that these people are somehow necessarily different from us in some unknowable way. On the whole, most criminals are just us in different circumstances. I suppose some of the really freaky SKs are desperately mentally ill in a way that is very uncommon, but they are human.
It's easier to see the humanity of some 16 year old kid brought up by an alcoholic mother and no father living in a slum who gets into trouble with the police for gang-fighting than it is to see the humanity of some sicko who tortures, mutilates and murders multiple victims.
I suppose if I was a Christian, I'd be compelled to see their humanity as that's what Jesus taught. And, as a humanist, I see their humanity too. Not forgiveness, not 'letting them off' - my sympathies lie with their victims' families - but I can accept that they are as human as I am.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Nov 2, 2010 21:47:26 GMT
Hi Riotgrrl! I'm glad you're sickened by the "celebrity cult status" that some SK's get! It's an evil in itself and it's a factor that encourages some potential serial killers to go that way. I suppose the politically correct way to express my belief would be to avoid religion and expouse the "born bad theory" ( www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/tick/killers_9.html ). I believe in the existence of a soul and I take Christ's parable of the good seeds and the bad seeds in Matthew 13 very literally. Evil souls, not brought to this world by God!
Christ told us to turn the other cheek to our brethen, who have fallen into sin, but the truly evil and born bad are not even described as human by Christ!
bible.cc/matthew/7-6.htm QUOTE: "Don't give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls to pigs. Otherwise, they will trample them and then tear you to pieces. [/color]
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Post by Wonder Woman on Nov 2, 2010 23:38:33 GMT
IMO it should be like this for serial killers, mass murderers, and in fact ALL murderers:
at sentencing, they're stripped of any identity except a number and they get no acknowledgment from the outside world. They should live in solitude. When they die, they are burned and their ashes quietly and without cerimony dumped.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Nov 3, 2010 4:18:38 GMT
IMO it should be like this for serial killers, mass murderers, and in fact ALL murderers: at sentencing, they're stripped of any identity except a number and they get no acknowledgment from the outside world. They should live in solitude. When they die, they are burned and their ashes quietly and without cerimony dumped. Dearest Wonder Woman! I would say you are the person, who would be most likely to convince me that the anti DP people are right! ...If they think entirely like you! I'll respond in more detail later-i took a sleeping pill before i saw your post and it's taking effect! Be strong Lynne and let that healing light in! Perhaps that's the only thing me and that beautiful person you knew so well would have agreed on!
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Post by Wonder Woman on Nov 3, 2010 4:43:24 GMT
IMO it should be like this for serial killers, mass murderers, and in fact ALL murderers: at sentencing, they're stripped of any identity except a number and they get no acknowledgment from the outside world. They should live in solitude. When they die, they are burned and their ashes quietly and without cerimony dumped. Dearest Wonder Woman! I would say you are the person, who would be most likely to convince me that the anti DP people are right! ...If they think entirely like you! I'll respond in more detail later-i took a sleeping pill before i saw your post and it's taking effect! Be strong Lynne and let that healing light in! Perhaps that's the only thing me and that beautiful person you knew so well would have agreed on!Thanks, Anna. As you know, I've been accused of being more pro than anti. Looking at my own post, I can see why some folks get confused!
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Post by gabriel on Nov 3, 2010 10:57:43 GMT
Ladies, good to see you posting. It really is. But can we keep this thread to Jack?
Yes, he was a bad SOB and hanging was too good for him. If he was caught. But he wasn't.
Jack exhibited all the classic patterns that we now know that SK's exhibit.
So many people in such a small area of London. And Jack slithered in and slithered out and slithered home and no-one knows for certain who he was.
So I'll throw this one into the mix. I'd love to see it.www.calgaryherald.com/serious+look+Ripperology/3753766/story.htmlA serious look at Ripperology By Alex Strachan, Postmedia News October 31, 2010 Ah, nostalgia. Isn't Halloween just the time to look back in fondness at the not-so-distant past, when an entire city was plunged into abject terror by a single, deranged lunatic? The dark, fateful 10-week period in 1888 London would become known as "the Autumn of Terror," historian and author Donald Rumbelow reminds us at the beginning of The Real Jack the Ripper. Jack the Ripper, the to-this-day unidentified serial killer who terrorized London's Whitechapel district -- an innocuous name for a neighbourhood variously described as "the most notorious criminal rookery in London" and "perhaps the foulest and most dangerous streets in the whole metropolis" -- has become the stuff of pop-cultural legend and the source of endless speculation. The Real Jack the Ripper, part ghost story, part historical documentary, strives to put a sober face on that speculation, separating fact from fiction. Ripperologists, historian Paul Begg explains -- Ripper devotees have developed their own "ology" -- have produced a lot of solid information on a wide range of subjects, and not just Ripperology. Begg himself is the author of Jack the Ripper: The Definitive History, and he's one of several historians in the program sitting at a table, knocking back stiff drinks and handling various cutting instruments from the time. In one of the program's more poignant moments, Canadian Maureen Nichols, great-great-granddaughter of the woman believed to be the Ripper's first victim, Mary Ann Nichols, recalls being startled the first time she saw a vintage, black-and-white snapshot of the Ripper's first victim and recognized the family resemblance. She returns to London, on a pilgrimage of a kind, trailed by the filmmakers. The Real Jack the Ripper is an eye-opening, if not always illuminating, look at one of history's great unexplained mysteries. (History Television -- If there's a true family tie, then there should be family stories about Polly and what happened to her which would be fascinating.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Nov 3, 2010 12:39:15 GMT
Gabriel, In this long thread we have already both posted a lot on the evidence and which "suspects" may be taken seriously or exonerated, assuming jtr ( small letters as usual ) was ever named by "legal name" in connection with these murders. I pretty much agree with you that this was likely the first serial killer, not in a position of political power, who murdered for banal, evil pleasure. I am very interested in erasing or diffusing the "celebrity cult" of the Whitechapel killer as well.
I'm glad you're drawing attention to Maureen Nichols, the great-great-granddaughter of the woman believed to be the ripper's first victim, Mary Ann Nichols. I'll keep my eyes open for YouTube videos about her journey.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Nov 3, 2010 12:57:43 GMT
Dearest Wonder Woman! I would say you are the person, who would be most likely to convince me that the anti DP people are right! ...If they think entirely like you! I'll respond in more detail later-i took a sleeping pill before i saw your post and it's taking effect! Be strong Lynne and let that healing light in! Perhaps that's the only thing me and that beautiful person you knew so well would have agreed on! Thanks, Anna. As you know, I've been accused of being more pro than anti. Looking at my own post, I can see why some folks get confused! Thank you too Lynne! As you know as well I've been accused of being anti-DP after posting threads about Marianne Bachmeier ( biglinmarshall.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=courtroom&thread=410 ) which divided the pro death penalty people into feuding factions!
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Post by pumpkinette on Nov 10, 2010 12:52:56 GMT
IMO it should be like this for serial killers, mass murderers, and in fact ALL murderers: at sentencing, they're stripped of any identity except a number and they get no acknowledgment from the outside world. They should live in solitude. When they die, they are burned and their ashes quietly and without cerimony dumped. This proves how much MORE education is NEEDED about the families/friends of the murderers. Here's another statement where we're willfully thought of as invisible. The other view tends to be demonization. At LEAST 30% of murders in the US are inter-family which means the MVS in those families have to decide if they want to have any contact with their loved 1 who murdered. The thought of ANY not being able to keep in contact if they want to is disgusting and equal to the WORST repression by any dictator. Hopefully, the education that IS going on will result in people thinking "what if I were an inter-family MVS"? Actually, I KNOW the education that's gone on HAS done some good. ;D Unfortunately, there's always reminders like this to confirm how much more is needed.
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Post by pumpkinette on Nov 10, 2010 17:52:26 GMT
IMO it should be like this for serial killers, mass murderers, and in fact ALL murderers: at sentencing, they're stripped of any identity except a number and they get no acknowledgment from the outside world. They should live in solitude. When they die, they are burned and their ashes quietly and without cerimony dumped. There's some big problems with this type of thing: what if the person was WRONGLY convicted? If so, and no one can see the person, then how in the world will anyone work on the case? This is 1 reason appeals are a must! I'm against the AMOUNT of appeals murderers DO get, but at least 1 is needed for ALL. Another 1: what if the murderer is truly mentally incompetent? It was unthinkable to any in my family to NOT have a family member be my Mother's guardian. Plus, she couldn't make ANY decisions so how in the world is a person like this supposed to function in prison if he/she needs surgery, needs medications, etc., etc.? A mentally incompetent person can't live in a vacuum! Another situation: what about the MVS who DO want to see the murderer and aren't related to the person? The MVS who want to have a confrontation? I've seen these MVS on TV and talked to 1 online a while back and this scenario takes away from them the right to confront the murderer.
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Post by Wonder Woman on Nov 10, 2010 18:17:15 GMT
IMO it should be like this for serial killers, mass murderers, and in fact ALL murderers: at sentencing, they're stripped of any identity except a number and they get no acknowledgment from the outside world. They should live in solitude. When they die, they are burned and their ashes quietly and without cerimony dumped. This proves how much MORE education is NEEDED about the families/friends of the murderers. Here's another statement where we're willfully thought of as invisible. The other view tends to be demonization. At LEAST 30% of murders in the US are inter-family which means the MVS in those families have to decide if they want to have any contact with their loved 1 who murdered. The thought of ANY not being able to keep in contact if they want to is disgusting and equal to the WORST repression by any dictator. Hopefully, the education that IS going on will result in people thinking "what if I were an inter-family MVS"? Actually, I KNOW the education that's gone on HAS done some good. ;D Unfortunately, there's always reminders like this to confirm how much more is needed. Well, pardon my unedumacated OPINION all over the place! The fact of the matter is, Pumpkin, that I seriously do not care about the murderer's relationships ~ past, present, future. We don't (or, leastways, shouldn't) sentence murderers based on the MVS' whims, nor on the murderer's family's wishes, or, in 30% of cases, both. Sentencing has to do with the CRIME committed. And, much as I am sorry about your bad luck (or rather, your loved one's bad choices that led to you being an MVS and a murderer's loved one) that does not induce me to treat murderers with kindness and consideration. My only interest is what may prevent more murders, while getting as little blood as possible on my own hands. To that end, I believe we must come down hard on murderers ~ all of them.
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Post by Wonder Woman on Nov 10, 2010 18:28:48 GMT
IMO it should be like this for serial killers, mass murderers, and in fact ALL murderers: at sentencing, they're stripped of any identity except a number and they get no acknowledgment from the outside world. They should live in solitude. When they die, they are burned and their ashes quietly and without cerimony dumped. There's some big problems with this type of thing: what if the person was WRONGLY convicted? If so, and no one can see the person, then how in the world will anyone work on the case? I was speaking figuratively. Certainly an attorney must be appointed to them for appeals. Please remember that appeals are not to determine innocence but to ensure the guilty (as has been determined in a court of law) got a fair trial. Also, most who have later been found to be ACTUALLY innocent, it was due to the work of laypersons and not the justice system. A mentally incompetent person can be appointed a legal guardian by the court upon determination they are mentally incompetent. Such situations are few and far-between. Regardless, these MVS must go through appropriate channels anyway, (likewise can be set up for MVS who are related to the murderer, so I see no reason what I think should be, can't be.
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Post by gabriel on Nov 11, 2010 7:50:23 GMT
Ladies, this is a thread about Jack who's dead and gone and will never be held accountable for his crimes.
A debate about the DS needs its own thread. I'll be more than happy to start one for you.
Gabe
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Nov 11, 2010 11:01:28 GMT
Ladies, this is a thread about Jack who's dead and gone and will never be held accountable for his crimes. A debate about the DS needs its own thread. I'll be more than happy to start one for you. Gabe The last two on topic posts were mysteriously deleted. One from you Gabe with a Youtube video about Whitechapel's poverty in 1988 and one from me with a link to a video put up by the jtr=Robert Mann believers.
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Post by gabriel on Nov 11, 2010 11:46:08 GMT
Ladies, this is a thread about Jack who's dead and gone and will never be held accountable for his crimes. A debate about the DS needs its own thread. I'll be more than happy to start one for you. Gabe The last two on topic posts were mysteriously deleted. One from you Gabe with a Youtube video about Whitechapel's poverty in 1988 and one from me with a link to a video put up by the jtr=Robert Mann believers.It's OK anna. I started a new thread on Jack about his victims and you posted there. So did I. It's there. Gabe
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Nov 11, 2010 11:57:28 GMT
I can't find the thread.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Nov 17, 2010 15:39:52 GMT
www.wesleyenglish.com/geoprofile/infamous-cases/jack-the-ripperThe "Geoprofilers" put jtr's address in the middle of Whitechapel. True the victims of sk's tend to be found in locations, which form a circle around the predator's residence. Since the victims that jtr sought out were only in Whitechapel i don't feel this approach is accurate.
The first victim of a serial killer is usually found closest to the perpetrator's address and i strongly feel that's the case here. jtr i believe lived in the east side of Whitechapel near the location where Polly Nichols was found murdered! Perhaps the impact that the Tabram murder ( also East side Whitechapel ) had on his community triggered him off.
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Post by gabriel on Nov 18, 2010 10:27:12 GMT
Chapman, Eddowes, Stride and Kelly all lived at one time or another in doss houses on Dorset St. Kelly was in Mitre Sq but that was the same as a doss house in Dorset St. The only one I'm aware of who didn't live there was Nicholls.
I'm not saying the geo profiling is absolutely spot on. It's a tool and that's all it is. But I reckon it's pretty accurate. Not to the street but to the general area.
Jack killed in a pretty specific area. Nicholls and Stride are a bit outside where I think he would have prowled but take Nicholls. His 1st, no-one finds her until he's gone. Stride, he's interrupted so he goes hunting again. He finds Eddowes, he drops her apron in Goulston St, he's heading for home. He's got cops falling out of the woodwork, he's on foot and he heads for home.
Somewhere around Commercial Road. Commercial St. Spitalfield Markets. Has to be.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Nov 20, 2010 6:25:16 GMT
Geoprofiling would be more relevant, if the type of victims were more representative of society. jtr targeted specifically street prostitutes, who could hardly be found outside of Whitechapel. I still think jtr lived close to where Mrs. Nichols' body was found and since there apparently weren't any street prostitutes to the east of Whitechapel jtr later struck in other parts of Whitechapel.
As you noted Gabe, jtr was returning home after he murdered Mrs Eddowes and he was going in the direction where the first murder occured.
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Post by gabriel on Nov 20, 2010 6:31:58 GMT
But the only class Jack killed was prostitutes and they abounded where he killed them. There were pros everywhere anna, they may just not have been as desperate as the ones in Spitalfields.
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