♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 30, 2010 4:07:45 GMT
Hi Gabe, I wouldn't say jtr was ONLY interested in shocking society. The btk killer enjoyed the torture he inflicted on some of his victims, but in my opinion both killers saw the lasting pleasure in the "shock effect" they created in their communities. Serial Killers ( SKs ) of all types often do take souvenirs or "trophies" from their victims. karisable.com/crserial1.htm QUOTE: # Souvenirs & Serial Killers: Serial killers often keep mementos of their victims. Robert Keppel places these collections into 2 categories: souvenirs and trophies. * Souvenirs: Personal items allow the killer to enjoy the memories of the crime. * A trophy can become something of a shrine UNQUOTE
I think the ripper did have surgical knowledge and easily found these body parts in the dark. I do give the "ripper letter", which was suspected of having part of Eddowes' kidney with it a reasonable chance of being authentic. The ripper worked quickly and probably didn't search his victim for other trophies. That would have meant focusing his eyes on the victim, losing contact with his surroundings and increasing the risk of being noticed.
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Post by gabriel on Sept 30, 2010 10:12:55 GMT
Jack didn't suddenly jump out of the fog, kill and mutilate 5 women then disappear forever because he wanted to shock society or enjoy the pain he inflicted. He was interested only in his own gratification. And he got that through the mutilations.
If he really enjoyed the act of killing for sadistic pleasure, then why would he throttle them into unconsciousness 1st before severing their throats? Seems to me that if Jack wanted his jollies through the act of murder, he would have lured them to a place where he was in total control of the surroundings. The only time that happened was with Kelly and that's because she took him to her room. And we know just how psycho he really went on her.
With the 1st 4 victims he was in public places of their choosing. He had no control over where he was going to kill or who could have shown up and literally caught him in the act. That's why I just can't agree with your idea of a watchful Jack not really interested in what he was doing but more intent on getting away with it.
Surgical experience? On slaughtering animals, perhaps. On people, I really doubt it. If he had surgical experience, then why didn't he go after Eddowes' kidney from the side? He just stabbed straight through her clothing as she was lying on her back.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 1, 2010 4:44:29 GMT
I believe that jtr had numerous motives. True unlike the btr killer sadism didn't rank high. I'm sure he enjoyed the mutilations even though only the Kelly murder allowed him to immerse himself in this. The fact that he got away makes me believe he was fully aware of the risks and stayed alert. Not the typical slasher that Ressler describes, but i could be wrong..
The fact that he could wait til the weekend suggests that he could control himself and that his murders were not uncontrolled outbursts, but rather premediated.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 1, 2010 5:47:34 GMT
So, what's your ideas about Jack's motives?
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♫anna♫
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The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 1, 2010 15:09:10 GMT
So, what's your ideas about Jack's motives? I really don't want to try to "get into jtr's head". It's enough to eliminate those "suspects" who weren't the ripper and be more realistic about who this predator could have been.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 2, 2010 5:39:59 GMT
So, what's your ideas about Jack's motives? I really don't want to try to "get into jtr's head". It's enough to eliminate those "suspects" who weren't the ripper and be more realistic about who this predator could have been.But if you don't try to understand why Jack did what he did, then you'll never be able to get a real grip on who he could be.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 2, 2010 6:07:08 GMT
www.associatedcontent.com/article/109815/jack_the_ripper_what_caused_him_to.html?cat=37Published December 31, 2006 by: Kristina Jones After reviewing the case of Jack the Ripper, I believe that his motivation to kill was psychosexual in nature. I believe this because all of his victims were prostitutes. He also mutilated these women and removed their genitals which suggest that there was some sort of sexual sadistic motive, according to the different serial killer typologies. It appeared that he was well aware of the female anatomy, thus allowing him to meticulously remove the genitals and other body parts almost flawless. He could have possibly been a doctor. I believe the Ripper was targeting prostitutes because they were an easy target. Jack the Ripper never had sex with these women but the murders showed signs of a sexual motive along with the motivation of terrorizing a city. Perhaps the Ripper not only was bent on terrorizing a city, but also wanting to make the world a better place by ridding it of the prostitutes, similar to Gary Ridgeway. If this is a possibility, then the Ripper would fit a mixed typology that is mixed with a mission and sadistic type of serial killer. Another thought that should be considered would be that the Ripper had some form of hatred towards women and thus was punishing all women through these types of killings. The Ripper had clear cut signature behaviors that made it easy for the London police to tie each of the murders together. For one, he would attack his victims in dark alleyways. Another signature behavior would be that he would first choke and strangle his victims and lie them face down on the ground. Another signature behavior would be the fact that he slit his victims' throats in a manner that would limit the amount of blood he would get on himself. Another signature behavior would be the removal of the genitals and the taking of a trophy in the form of a piece of his victims' viscera. Also, the way the incisions of the mutilations were very meticulous and precise that these types of wounds were a signature behavior. What I agree with I have bolded. She's wrong on a couple of points. Jack did not kill his victims in dark alleyways. His mutilations were slash/ stab in style - not precise, which is why they are called mutilations.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 2, 2010 6:31:12 GMT
I really don't want to try to "get into jtr's head". It's enough to eliminate those "suspects" who weren't the ripper and be more realistic about who this predator could have been. But if you don't try to understand why Jack did what he did, then you'll never be able to get a real grip on who he could be. I respectfully disagree on this Gabe! It's only neccesary to track predators down and not get into their evil heads. Dr. Maurice Godwin is a very successful profiler and he tracks these evildoers down like the animals that they are. www.pr-inside.com/dr-maurice-godwin-psychological-r1583277.htm
I agree with Kristina Jones that the ripper was targeting the community. The victims were all on their backs posed or displayed in an obscene and degrading manner. Perhaps jtr didn't have time to do this with Mrs Stride. I believe his pleasure would have been minimized if he left his victims where no one would have ever discovered them. A certain percent of serial killers do pose their victims and they always do this to further humilate the victim and to shock others.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 2, 2010 11:01:08 GMT
You can't track an SK if you don't know why he's doing what he's doing. His MO will help but some Sk's change theirs. Jack didn't. It's just that MEPO and City of London Police didn't have profiling (or blood typing or DNA) to help them.
They had to catch him in the act and they didn't.
He was not setting out to change society. Jack couldn't have given a rat's a*** about society.
I understand your point about why didn't he just break out and kill all the time or whenever. I've never said Jack was stupid. He killed when he could and that was Fri through Sun. Which is why I also don't believe he was some blubbering idiot confined to a mental home.
He had to kill. But he could wait until he had the chance. Then, all his Xmases came at once and he went for it. And when he did kill, in all these places where he could have been caught, he didn't care about that. He was beyond care. He was single minded and focussed on his task.
You know, I've often wondered though if a man had come along and disturbed Jack. 'WTH are you doing? I'm calling the police...'
Not on a mobile obviously but I wonder how Jack would have dealt with being caught in the act. Would he have lunged with the knife or would he have backed off? Or would he have broken down?
Because that would tell us so much about why Jack did what he did.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 2, 2010 16:11:27 GMT
Since jtr was such a strong person by comparison he could have used physical force if someone tried to restrain him. I think his first choice would have been to just disappear when someone approached, like with the Stride murder.
"Changing society"?! wasn't his motive..... more likely just shocking the community was his evil fun.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 3, 2010 5:53:48 GMT
Fair enough. You're probably right.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 3, 2010 6:15:00 GMT
Fair enough. You're probably right. Morning Gabe! I think some of the cuts were jagged because jtr made rapid jerking movements. Not because he had no idea of anatomy, but because he could cut quicker this way. This argues against Ressler's belief that jtr didn't care if he got caught. He worked quickly to minimize the risks.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 3, 2010 11:48:01 GMT
Fair enough. You're probably right. Morning Gabe! I think some of the cuts were jagged because jtr made rapid jerking movements. Not because he had no idea of anatomy, but because he could cut quicker this way. This argues against Ressler's belief that jtr didn't care if he got caught. He worked quickly to minimize the risks.Oh no. Don't get me wrong. I agree absolutely with Ressler. The mutilations. He has her on the ground. He stabs and the knife goes in. But she's wearing stays and whatever else. He's in a frenzy. He pulls the knife out, shoves up whatever clothes he can and goes for it again. Jack was beyond reality. Like a shark if you want. Not a lot of difference really.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 3, 2010 11:51:18 GMT
Your post about Jack disappearing. I think you're probably quite right.
When he was cornered in Dutfield's Yard and I believe he was, he slithered away.
But was it because there was a man or was it because he just had to kill again?
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 4, 2010 2:47:00 GMT
Morning Gabe! I think some of the cuts were jagged because jtr made rapid jerking movements. Not because he had no idea of anatomy, but because he could cut quicker this way. This argues against Ressler's belief that jtr didn't care if he got caught. He worked quickly to minimize the risks. Oh no. Don't get me wrong. I agree absolutely with Ressler. The mutilations. He has her on the ground. He stabs and the knife goes in. But she's wearing stays and whatever else. He's in a frenzy. He pulls the knife out, shoves up whatever clothes he can and goes for it again. Jack was beyond reality. Like a shark if you want. Not a lot of difference really. I suppose jtr could be compared to an animal - a shark. Animals are very wary of danger.
He never struck when there were witnessses around and immediately ceased his actions and disappeared when a witness approached which argues against Ressler's claim that he didn't care if he got caught. I'm sure he prowled other nights and didn't have an opportunity to strike without being noticed and so he refrained from killing. This argues against the "he had to kill" profile.
On the night of the double murders the witness, who found Mrs. Stride's body described a light rain and so I imagine Mitre Square would have been an unpleasant place for loitering. jtr probably led Mrs. Eddow's to that dark area there claiming it was the direction to wherever he said he was inviting her. As soon as he reached this area and was confident that there were no witnesses he immediately placed his stranglehold on Mrs. Eddowes. He worked very quickly and retreated immediately when the constable appeared at a distance.
I have the impression this was all very premediated and jtr was very aware of his surroundings and the risks. I sense a rather arrogant killer, who liked taking risks and not Ressler's disorganized slasher. I could be wrong of course.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 4, 2010 9:49:36 GMT
No. With Mitre Sq I have seen the light. Eddowes was soliciting the club in Duke St. That's why she was there and that's why Lawende and Levy spotted her and Jack.And that's why he was a disorganized killer. He was spotted but he went for it anyway.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 4, 2010 14:42:22 GMT
No. With Mitre Sq I have seen the light. Eddowes was soliciting the club in Duke St. That's why she was there and that's why Lawende and Levy spotted her and Jack.And that's why he was a disorganized killer. He was spotted but he went for it anyway. I don't know Gabe! Assuming that the man seen with Mrs. Eddowes was an acquaintance of Mr. Levy and also Anderson's suspect, who died shortly afterwards in an insane asylum he wasn't doing anything suspicious when seen other than being with Mrs. Eddowes shortly before her murder.
Assuming this was jtr he perhaps couldn't imagine that Mr. Levy and the others would care about the fate of a prostitute and indeed they refused to testify against him. Even if they did testify they saw no violent or suspicious actions. Without concrete evidence the "identification" would lead to neither an indictment nor a conviction.
Arrogance? Disorganisation? A gambler? We can only speculate. We also can't prove in a court that the man identified did indeed murder Mrs. Eddowes 5 minutes later. The witnesses didn't stay around.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 5, 2010 7:14:49 GMT
No. You're absolutely right. The only way Jack could have been caught was in the act. I don't know what the odds are for that but he was close in Dutfield's Yard.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 12, 2010 12:25:31 GMT
Oh I have to talk again about my fave, Jack.
Why did he become so notorious?
1888. East End. Trafalgar Square earlier where the poor had gone to basically complain about how they were being forced to live. They were shot at.
There was a lot of unrest at the time. What was happening?
* massive influx of Jews from the pogroms in Russia and East Europe
* introduction of 'penny dreadful' newspapers that were aimed at the working class, not the rich or middle classes.
* distrust of the coppers and the government, particularly after Trafalgar Square
* massive unemployment
* lack of housing for anyone - families, singles.
* no welfare - if you couldn't work, then you died. Really, that was what happened.
Then along comes Jack. And the whole thing blows up. You know, Jack probably did more to help the people in the East End than any politician ever did. Think about it.
He made the pollies realise just how bad living there was.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 16, 2010 4:57:37 GMT
Then along comes Jack. And the whole thing blows up. You know, Jack probably did more to help the people in the East End than any politician ever did. Think about it. He made the pollies realise just how bad living there was. I respectfully disagree Gabe! I don't think jtr played a role in raising the awareness of Whitechapel's poverty, beyond the rippologist circle! It would also be wrong to say that gangsters like Al Capone, Bugs Moran, etc. raised the awareness of Chicago's impoverished people. I would give credit to the largely unnamed people who cared and a changing "spirit of the times".
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