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Post by beth on Sept 14, 2009 21:59:35 GMT
The Kennedy assassination is a fascinating part of comparatively recent past. Lots of thought, research and discussion out there to draw from. This month's Vanity Fair has a very interesting article about the controversy surrounding William Manchester's book, The Death of a President, commissioned by Jacqueline and Robert Kennedy, who then tried to stop its publication. I read it from my text version, went looking and found it online. Comments appreciated. www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2009/10/death-of-a-president200910
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Post by beth on Sept 17, 2009 3:51:39 GMT
When I started reading this article, I was pretty sure I'd side with William Manchester in the controversy that surrounded his book, The Death of a President. By the time I finished, I could see points for both sides. Jacqueline Kennedy should have been told of the plan to invite bids to serialize an abridged version of the book before it was put out there. To me that was poor planning on the part of Harper & Row more than the author, but still . . . I can understand how she might not have wanted some of the intimate memories she shared with Manchester for the book to be splashed, tabloid-like, across the cover of magazines on the newsstands. So, she won and she lost - the serialization took place but part of it, 1600 words worth, was snipped. I'm sorry the book is not still in print. I don't think my parents bought a copy - maybe read one from the library - and I never thought to. I looked on Amazon and the high quality used ones for sail are pretty pricey.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 17, 2009 20:39:56 GMT
Dearest Beth, This is a very complicated story and some of the facts are missing and all we can do is speculate as to who was behind the JFK assaination.
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Post by beth on Sept 17, 2009 21:32:08 GMT
Interesting graphic, Anna. I guess we could discuss the "who" and "why" aspects of the assassination, if you want. The article had nothing to do with those particular mysteries, and, for the most part, neither did Manchester's book - though he opined that he believed the Warren Commission got it right. The subject of the article was the writing of The Death of a President and the subsequent legal and personal battles to keep it from being serialized and to redact much of Jacqueline Kennedy's input. But, without anyone accessing the link and reading - and I understand because it's rather long - I'm the only one who knows what I'm talking about. lol So, don't presume the content is about "who dunnit" , because that's incorrect.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 18, 2009 5:39:01 GMT
It's simply impossible that Oswald could have fired the fatal shot killing JFK. The horribly graphic videos are probably not new to anyone, but the fatal shot clearly came from the opposite direction from where Oswald was alledged to have been.
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Post by beth on Sept 18, 2009 16:47:33 GMT
Are these clips from the Zapruder film? It's a wonder it wasn't destroyed or didn't just disappear all things considered. I think it was an amazing 'coincidence' that so many people with information just seemed to die - usually by accident.
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Post by pumpkinette on Sept 18, 2009 23:41:10 GMT
This was covered by only 3 media sources that I know of: "Rolling Stone" magazine; Coast to Coast radio show (which this clip is from) and the Alex Jones radio show (where I learned about it). It makes me furious, but it's just ANOTHER example of how evil and controlled at least 99% of our media is. I'm so sick of it. I'm hoping you'll be interested in this as it's the only deathbed confession that's come out in this case.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 19, 2009 6:40:48 GMT
Are these clips from the Zapruder film? It's a wonder it wasn't destroyed or didn't just disappear all things considered. I think it was an amazing 'coincidence' that so many people with information just seemed to die - usually by accident. [/youtube] This is all scary stuff! I suppose the 4th film that was seized by the FBI will never be released, assuming it wasn't destroyed. The film above shows a bewildered bodyguard being ordered to abandon his post at the side of JFK. This gave the snipers a better shot.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 19, 2009 7:06:58 GMT
This was covered by only 3 media sources that I know of: "Rolling Stone" magazine; Coast to Coast radio show (which this clip is from) and the Alex Jones radio show (where I learned about it). It makes me furious, but it's just ANOTHER example of how evil and controlled at least 99% of our media is. I'm so sick of it. I'm hoping you'll be interested in this as it's the only deathbed confession that's come out in this case. LBJ was a horrible president! It's also suspected he was involved in the plot to sink the USS Liberty and get the US into a senseless war against Egypt! LBJ went bonkers when he heard that the USS Liberty had sent a distress signal and planes were being sent to aid the Liberty. Fortunately the generals ignored LBJ's order to "get those *#§ planes back!" It's suspected JFK's reluctance to make a major military commitment to Vietnam led to his death sentence! The hypocrite LBJ had no such reluctance.
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Post by chefmate on Sept 19, 2009 13:06:03 GMT
I never quite saw the horror in Jackie's face until I watched that clip this morning......how on earth that woman ever recovered to raise her children and live a life is a testament to her strong will.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 19, 2009 14:47:16 GMT
I never quite saw the horror in Jackie's face until I watched that clip this morning......how on earth that woman ever recovered to raise her children and live a life is a testament to her strong will. It's heartbreaking! Despite the horror Jackie even gathered up some of the skull fragments on the back of the car in the hope her husband's life could be saved! And that deadly shot obviously came from the opposite direction in front of JFK!
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Post by chefmate on Sept 19, 2009 23:53:13 GMT
I never quite saw the horror in Jackie's face until I watched that clip this morning......how on earth that woman ever recovered to raise her children and live a life is a testament to her strong will. It's heartbreaking! Despite the horror Jackie even gathered up some of the skull fragments on the back of the car in the hope her husband's life could be saved! And that deadly shot obviously came from the opposite direction in front of JFK! no doubt the deadly shot came from the front; I have always wondered and it make me mad we will never know the full truth. I have been to the assassination site; it is so much smaller than it shows in the films
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Post by Liberator on Sept 20, 2009 1:04:36 GMT
I think J Edgar Hoover and the FBI arranges Kennedy's assassination. It's well known that personally, Hoover detested the Kennedys but felt easier about good ol' boy LBJ for all his liberalism.
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Post by chefmate on Sept 20, 2009 5:26:11 GMT
How much different would our country be if MLK, JFK, and RFK hadn't been assassinated?
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Post by Big Lin on Sept 20, 2009 17:16:25 GMT
How much different would our country be if MLK, JFK, and RFK hadn't been assassinated? I think all three of those cases are different, Chris. JFK is a man I have NEVER admired. He was a totally cynical politician who REFUSED to condemn Joseph Macarthy. He nearly launched World War Three over Cuba; he only took up civil rights because he wanted the black vote; and he was a corrupt womaniser. Martin Luther King was also a womaniser but a far more admirable human being in other respects. He was a man of God and motivated by love and respect for human dignity. Robert Kennedy was a weak man but he was at least a more genuinely liberal person than his brother and he would have beaten Nixon in 1968 who was a total disaster and disgrace. With Dr King, he would only have tried to hold back the tide, He was a great man but he would not I think have brought the election of a Barack Obama type of person any closer. Just my two pennysworth, anyway. By the way, I like LBJ - at least he tried to WIN the war in Vietnam and his Great Society project deserved to succeed and WOULD have done but for Kennedy's stupidity in launching the war in the first place!
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Post by beth on Sept 20, 2009 17:45:10 GMT
How much different would our country be if MLK, JFK, and RFK hadn't been assassinated? It's tempting to speculate but impossible to know. If any one of those men had survived - not to mention all three - other events and factors would have been put into play. The world would be a different place in both enormous and minute ways. Better or worse - a mystery.
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Post by beth on Sept 20, 2009 18:07:40 GMT
I never quite saw the horror in Jackie's face until I watched that clip this morning......how on earth that woman ever recovered to raise her children and live a life is a testament to her strong will. from the article - /snip It was both a help and a horror that she remembered so much. A friend of hers confides, “She has a great visual eye and great recall. She told Manchester everything there was to tell. It was like expunging herself—the wound was still pretty raw.” One of the things she remembered was how the president, shortly before their trip to Dallas, had for the first time in their marriage asked what she planned to wear: “‘There are going to be all these rich, Republican women at that lunch,’” J.F.K. told her, “‘wearing mink coats and diamond bracelets. And you’ve got to look as marvelous as any of them. Be simple—show these Texans what good taste really is.’ So she tramped in and out of his room, holding dresses in front of her. The outfits finally chosen—weather permitting—were all veterans of her wardrobe: beige and white dresses, blue and yellow suits, and, for Dallas, a pink suit with a navy blue collar and a matching pink pillbox hat.” She remembered the scene in a Fort Worth, Texas, hotel room where she and Jack prepared to retire the night before arriving in Dallas. Kennedy’s aides had already removed the hotel’s double mattress and replaced it with the special one he always traveled with for his troubled back. The president lay down on the bed, saying he had a stomachache, and asked Jackie not to stay with him, explaining that he had to make a breakfast speech, and that way she could remain in bed the next morning. There was a long embrace. She said good night and went out. She remembered how, in the motorcade, her husband had asked her to remove her oversize sunglasses because the crowd had come to see her face. It was the last thing he would ever ask of her. She did not, however, remember seeing the serrated piece of skull ripped from her husband’s head, nor did she remember climbing to the rear of the six-passenger 1961 Lincoln, code-named SS 100 X. At that point she was already in shock, and when Manchester later showed her still frames of dress manufacturer Abraham Zapruder’s film, which had caught the entire assassination on 8-mm. Kodachrome, it was “as though she were looking at photographs of another woman.” But she did remember that she “tenderly wrapped” the president’s head in the lining of Secret Service agent Clint Hill’s suit jacket as they placed the president’s body on a stretcher just outside of Parkland Memorial Hospital, in Dallas. She remembered the backseat wet with blood, and she recalled a “brief moment of panic” when they tried to move his body from the open car. “I’m not going to let him go, Mr. Hill,” she remembered saying. “You know he’s dead. Leave me alone.” But she also remembered holding out a brief, desperate hope that her husband was still alive. She remembered fighting with a nurse to gain admittance to the trauma room at Parkland Hospital. When Rear Admiral George Burkley, one of Kennedy’s physicians, offered her a sedative, she remembered, she told him, “I want to be in there when he dies.” She remembered the expression on her husband’s face in death, describing it as a look of “compassion.” Manchester, who had seen men die on Okinawa, and thought he was made of strong stuff, found it increasingly difficult, as he listened, to maintain his composure. She remembered asking one of the surgeons, Dr. Kemp Clark, who had worked fruitlessly over the president’s inert body, if she could see her husband in his coffin before it was closed. When he said no, Mrs. Kennedy remembered, she said, “Do you think seeing the coffin can upset me, doctor? … His blood is all over me. How can I see anything worse than I’ve seen?” She remembered trying to remove her left glove so she could place her wedding ring in the coffin, on her husband’s finger, and how she had fumbled with the snap on her glove, and how she had held out her wrist to police sergeant Robert Dugger, who undid the snap and peeled the glove from her hand. She remembered being asked by the president’s physician on board Air Force One if she wanted to change out of her blood-smeared suit into a pristine white dress that had been laid out on the presidential bed for her. “No,” she vehemently told him. “Let them see what they’ve done.” /snip
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♫anna♫
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The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Sept 21, 2009 0:51:50 GMT
By the way, I like LBJ - at least he tried to WIN the war in Vietnam and his Great Society project deserved to succeed and WOULD have done but for Kennedy's stupidity in launching the war in the first place! Truman got the US involved in Vietnam supporting the French with money and the US air force. Eisenhauer continued the military commitment. JFK inherited the mess. LBJ buttered up the despotic Franco style Vietnamese dictator Diem and ordered the military escalation after he became president. www.english.illinois.edu/maps/vietnam/timeline.htm QUOTE: Vice President Johnson Tours Saigon: During a tour of Asian countries, Vice President Lyndon Johnson visits Diem in Saigon. Johnson assures Diem that he is crucial to US objectives in Vietnam and calls him "the Churchill of Asia."
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Post by gabriel on Sept 25, 2009 4:25:12 GMT
I never quite saw the horror in Jackie's face until I watched that clip this morning......how on earth that woman ever recovered to raise her children and live a life is a testament to her strong will. from the article - /snip It was both a help and a horror that she remembered so much. A friend of hers confides, “She has a great visual eye and great recall. She told Manchester everything there was to tell. It was like expunging herself—the wound was still pretty raw.” One of the things she remembered was how the president, shortly before their trip to Dallas, had for the first time in their marriage asked what she planned to wear: “‘There are going to be all these rich, Republican women at that lunch,’” J.F.K. told her, “‘wearing mink coats and diamond bracelets. And you’ve got to look as marvelous as any of them. Be simple—show these Texans what good taste really is.’ So she tramped in and out of his room, holding dresses in front of her. The outfits finally chosen—weather permitting—were all veterans of her wardrobe: beige and white dresses, blue and yellow suits, and, for Dallas, a pink suit with a navy blue collar and a matching pink pillbox hat.” She remembered the scene in a Fort Worth, Texas, hotel room where she and Jack prepared to retire the night before arriving in Dallas. Kennedy’s aides had already removed the hotel’s double mattress and replaced it with the special one he always traveled with for his troubled back. The president lay down on the bed, saying he had a stomachache, and asked Jackie not to stay with him, explaining that he had to make a breakfast speech, and that way she could remain in bed the next morning. There was a long embrace. She said good night and went out. She remembered how, in the motorcade, her husband had asked her to remove her oversize sunglasses because the crowd had come to see her face. It was the last thing he would ever ask of her. She did not, however, remember seeing the serrated piece of skull ripped from her husband’s head, nor did she remember climbing to the rear of the six-passenger 1961 Lincoln, code-named SS 100 X. At that point she was already in shock, and when Manchester later showed her still frames of dress manufacturer Abraham Zapruder’s film, which had caught the entire assassination on 8-mm. Kodachrome, it was “as though she were looking at photographs of another woman.” But she did remember that she “tenderly wrapped” the president’s head in the lining of Secret Service agent Clint Hill’s suit jacket as they placed the president’s body on a stretcher just outside of Parkland Memorial Hospital, in Dallas. She remembered the backseat wet with blood, and she recalled a “brief moment of panic” when they tried to move his body from the open car. “I’m not going to let him go, Mr. Hill,” she remembered saying. “You know he’s dead. Leave me alone.” But she also remembered holding out a brief, desperate hope that her husband was still alive. She remembered fighting with a nurse to gain admittance to the trauma room at Parkland Hospital. When Rear Admiral George Burkley, one of Kennedy’s physicians, offered her a sedative, she remembered, she told him, “I want to be in there when he dies.” She remembered the expression on her husband’s face in death, describing it as a look of “compassion.” Manchester, who had seen men die on Okinawa, and thought he was made of strong stuff, found it increasingly difficult, as he listened, to maintain his composure. She remembered asking one of the surgeons, Dr. Kemp Clark, who had worked fruitlessly over the president’s inert body, if she could see her husband in his coffin before it was closed. When he said no, Mrs. Kennedy remembered, she said, “Do you think seeing the coffin can upset me, doctor? … His blood is all over me. How can I see anything worse than I’ve seen?” She remembered trying to remove her left glove so she could place her wedding ring in the coffin, on her husband’s finger, and how she had fumbled with the snap on her glove, and how she had held out her wrist to police sergeant Robert Dugger, who undid the snap and peeled the glove from her hand. She remembered being asked by the president’s physician on board Air Force One if she wanted to change out of her blood-smeared suit into a pristine white dress that had been laid out on the presidential bed for her. “No,” she vehemently told him. “Let them see what they’ve done.” /snip I'll keep to your original discussion of Manchester's book. JBK was on a mission to immortalise her husband. That much is for sure. She had deliberately shied away from publicity etc during the Presidency - she was only in Dallas to help try to turn the Texas situation around. She couldn't really remember much of what had happened, but bits and pieces which is normal. I think she saw Manchester as a safe bet who'd toe the Kennedy line and play it safe and cosy. However, Manchester never believed that was what JBK wanted hence the book and the legal wrangles over it. 'Expunging herself' is a good way to put it.
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Post by beth on Sept 25, 2009 5:28:54 GMT
Gabe, I think the biggest problem was choosing someone (Manchester) who deeply admired JFK. He obviously had an emotional investment in recording the assassination for posterity. Of course, that meant he was not open to doing any less than he could. It was a mission for him, and he actually made himself sick carrying out the research and writing on an almost unbelievable schedule. His son (interviewed by VF) said it seemed to him JBK considered Manchester an employee, so, was quick to give him orders - orders he refused to obey. I'd love to get a copy of the book. It's out of print but available here and there. Too bad the price is prohibitive.
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