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Post by gabriel on Sept 25, 2009 6:18:12 GMT
Do you have access to a large library? I have a swag of books on many of the Kennedy's (I will admit I am very interested in them, particularly JFK, JBK and JFK J'r) but I don't have 'Death of a President'. It is, however, available from my local town library. You might get lucky.
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Post by beth on Sept 26, 2009 0:41:06 GMT
I called my local branch. They don't have it. I'll try one of the city libraries next week. Good idea, Gabe. The print copy of Vanity Fair has pics of the covers of the Look mags that serialized Manchester's book. They were pretty lurid and tabloid like, even though Look was a respected periodical. If I were Jackie, I don't believe I'd have wanted my small cache of memories printed in those articles. In that respect, I'm glad for her that she won the suit to get Harper & Row to take some of the things out.
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Post by gabriel on Sept 26, 2009 4:59:24 GMT
IMO, any reporting that was done on the assassination didn't really hit its stride until round about '82 on the 20th anniversary. That marks the start of the serious studies of conspiracy, grassy knoll, Mafia etc. I'm not downplaying Death of a President. But it's not really objective, it's more I guess a recording for posterity of a grieving widow's memories. And what she said there eg she couldn't remember his skull and the brains oozing it, she said years and years later that she remembered that. She said she was trying to keep his brains in.
You know, what can you say? I wasn't there, no-one else was in the back seat except the 2 of them so who knows what she really did remember or perhaps 'remembered' by watching TV or reading or whatever. Her own revisionist memory, if you like. Anyway, good luck hunting for the book.
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Post by chefmate on Sept 26, 2009 5:14:52 GMT
I remember the grassy knoll as being smaller than I thought it was; the museum is a great place to visit and wish I could go back again someday and see the area again now that I"m older and more wiser
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Post by gabriel on Sept 26, 2009 5:41:49 GMT
I remember the grassy knoll as being smaller than I thought it was; the museum is a great place to visit and wish I could go back again someday and see the area again now that I"m older and more wiser Yeah chef Dealey Plaza is much smaller than you think it is when you've watched Zapruder etc. I had to do the JFK whole tour experience while I was there, including Oswald's route and where he killed Tippett. You're right about the 6th Floor Museum, it's a very moving experience to go there. Oswald there with gun, yes. 2nd gunman, behind picket fence, where else, grassy knoll. Yes, chef, I'm a conspiracist! But I do remind you that it only takes 2 people to form a conspiracy.
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Post by clemiethedog on Oct 12, 2009 16:25:10 GMT
I think Oswald acted alone because that's where the only hard evidence exists. There were many who wanted Kennedy dead and LBJ in office, many in Texas, home to many military hardware corporations. In Dallas, there was (is) a large John Birch Society presence (H.L. Hunt most notably) who now comprise the mainstream GOP. Kennedy proposed, for example, abolishing the oil depletion allowance, which pissed of many greedy oilmen. (it was finally abolished in 1975).
I thought October 1962 was a turning point in the JFK administration, and I think he would have been a great president had he served out his term and was re-elected (a likely event). While the US and the USSR were on the verge of a nuclear exchange, the political climate in the US was very hawkish. Unlike Bush 40 years later, JFK presented the evidence up front, nothing was concocted, and he sought and gained support for his actions. He was an anti-communist who signed the Test Ban Treaty, ushering a new era of mutual habitation and an exchange of the arts and sciences, something almost unheard of four years earlier. His address at the American University on June 10, 1963, and his subsequent TV address a few months later were watershed (predictably the right wing when insane).
I have to disagree with Lin's take. The civil rights issue was a political risk and it would have made the 1964 election very close. The south was a democrat stronghold prior to that act, and even LBJ lost those states to Goldwater. JFK carried, and needed, the south; moreover, this was prior to the 1965 voting rights act, so many blacks in the south remained disenfranchised. There was mounting support for civil rights after the abuses and oppression in the south were televised, but it was unpopular with many.
He sought to right many of the injustices heaped upon Latin America by the US with the Alliance for Progress. Lots of talk, but some action and even today JFK is a revered figure in many Latin nations. He established the Peace Corps, an organization that continues to spread goodwill to this day. He fought the avaricious steel industry after they got concessions from the union and increase steel prices. He promoted conservation and many of his public addresses from his summer western tour boarded on a prophecy. He encouraged advances in the arts and culture and to elevate the quality of education.
With Vietnam, he was advised as early as 1961 to bomb North Vietnam, he never did. He was advised as early as 1961 to send combat troops, he never did. One of his final acts before Dallas was an executive order reducing US troops, an order rescinded by LBJ a scant week later. The US actions in Vietnam were illegal from the get-go. When Eisenhower established SEATO and recognized the South government, he violated the Geneva agreement. Ho would have carried 75% of the vote, had the election took place in 1955, as stipulated by the agreement. The war was unwinnable and those in the know knew that. As early as 1966 Dick Nixon admitted it privately, but nobody had the political capital to say it publicly, given the war like attitude of the majority in the US.
LBJ was a great legislator, but he was also patronizing scoundrel. He sat on his hands as VP and never gave much effort to advance the Kennedy agenda. Granted, he accomplished much domestically and for that he deserves a great deal of credit, but he really didn’t know what to do with Vietnam once the truth set in. That war killed him and he shared great empathy to the death and destruction his policies help create. Bottom line, the American people themselves were the most to blame for Vietnam with an insane war mentality. Yet those who have experienced war, namely DeGualle, Eisenhower, and McArthur, were opposed to launching a ground war.
JFK had his personal shortcomings, as we all do in varying degrees, but I firmly believe they never interferred with his conduct of office. He treated and respected people equally.
Adding: Manchester's book was outstanding (as were his volumes on McArthur and Churchill). Jackie O tried to halt its publication because of some personal stories. She was a very private person.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Oct 12, 2009 18:21:55 GMT
I remember the grassy knoll as being smaller than I thought it was; the museum is a great place to visit and wish I could go back again someday and see the area again now that I"m older and more wiser Yeah chef Dealey Plaza is much smaller than you think it is when you've watched Zapruder etc. I had to do the JFK whole tour experience while I was there, including Oswald's route and where he killed Tippett. You're right about the 6th Floor Museum, it's a very moving experience to go there. Oswald there with gun, yes. 2nd gunman, behind picket fence, where else, grassy knoll. Yes, chef, I'm a conspiracist! But I do remind you that it only takes 2 people to form a conspiracy. I'm pretty sure the shot that killed JFK came from this "grassy knoll" and the killer will probably never be known as anyone other than the "BadgeMan" or the"Black Dog Man". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dealey_Plaza#The_grassy_knoll
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Post by Big Lin on Oct 12, 2009 22:24:51 GMT
Clemie, I agree that Oswald wanted to assassinate Kennedy but the incredible series of maneouvres that the 'magic bullet' is supposed to have travelled to kill both Kennedy and Connolly just defies belief.
A late friend of Mike's (a New Yorker with more attitude than almost anyone I've met but a very intelligent guy) reckons it was George Bush Senior.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 13, 2009 6:31:28 GMT
I've looked in on board's where JFK's murder is the only reason for the board or one of the major topics. Way too intense for me. I find the topic interesting but Bush Snr behind a bush? Funny thought though.
There had to be 2 shooters. What happened to Kennedy and Connolly doesn't make any sense if the shots didn't come in front and behind. The 'magic' bullet would be defying the laws of physics to do what the Warren Commission said it did. I mean, hell, they've never found the 2nd shooter so whoever took the contract and set JFK up did a 1st rate job.
George Snr. Yeah. Worth a chuckle.
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Post by trubble on Oct 13, 2009 9:01:35 GMT
Lin, I've been thinking about your line about JFK - that he ''only took up civil rights because he wanted the black vote''.
While I don't know how true or not that is, I think it doesn't matter too much anyway. The point is that he did! And the whole raison d'etre of voting rights was to give each person a voice that had to be heard so it's the one-person~one-vote system working to perfection.
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Post by trubble on Oct 13, 2009 9:06:12 GMT
I remember the grassy knoll as being smaller than I thought it was; the museum is a great place to visit and wish I could go back again someday and see the area again now that I"m older and more wiser My sister did that tour of the book repository and found it fascinating. I asked her if it wasn't a bit macabre visiting the assassination area with people on street corners selling theories and so on - a sort of dark Disneyland - but she said no, that it was well worth the visit. I've got it on my to-do list along with the NASA place.
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Post by clemiethedog on Oct 16, 2009 14:00:42 GMT
I visted the Dealy Plaza over 20 years ago and found it interesting. At the time, the fence behind the grassy knoll was intact, where allegedly an assasin's casings were found.
One can't legally trace the motorcade route, though; the street heading north, Elm, is a one-way heading south.
I've seen the Lincoln site at the Ford Theatre and Peterson house across the street. Very well preserved.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 16, 2009 14:07:52 GMT
I visted the Dealy Plaza over 20 years ago and found it interesting. At the time, the fence behind the grassy knoll was intact, where allegedly an assasin's casings were found. One can't legally trace the motorcade route, though; the street heading north, Elm, is a one-way heading south. I've seen the Lincoln site at the Ford Theatre and Peterson house across the street. Very well preserved. It is an interesting place to visit.
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Post by beth on Oct 17, 2009 15:16:14 GMT
I've never been there. From the pictures, it looks as if it would have been very difficult for a gunman to have hidden - with a high powered rifle - so as to evade detection by witnesses. The grassy knoll area doesn't appear to have had a lot of cover. The only thing I can think of is that he may have presented himself as secret service.
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Post by gabriel on Oct 18, 2009 5:45:47 GMT
Apparently, and I can't remember where I read this, some guy/s who worked for the railroad told police there was a guy behind the picket fence who indicated he was Secret Service. Beth, it's the perfect place for a kill shot. Much easier than from the 6th floor. Kennedy was a sitting duck.
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Post by beth on Nov 1, 2009 21:42:54 GMT
Apparently, and I can't remember where I read this, some guy/s who worked for the railroad told police there was a guy behind the picket fence who indicated he was Secret Service. Beth, it's the perfect place for a kill shot. Much easier than from the 6th floor. Kennedy was a sitting duck. That seems like a possible. I have a friend who has always been of the opinion the mafia was behind the assassination. Then, because of mob connections, Jack Ruby was the chosen hit man to take out Oswald. The idea I've long held is that Oswald was up there and may have fired a couple of shots, but that he had help. It's a little amazing that nobody with inside information has come forward - or behind the scenes - to fill in the blanks. In ways, that lends validity to the idea that Oswald acted alone.
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Post by Liberator on Nov 1, 2009 22:58:32 GMT
I reckon Oswald was set up and there was somebody else. It looks as if he knew Ruby too. It would not surprise me if secret service - more correctly FBI - and mafia were both involved because it would take an expert sniper to hit from any of the possible sites. Criminal money went into JFK's campaign and they were not pleased when the brothers started cracking down on them. On top of that though, J Edgar Hoover hated the entire Kennedy clan and everything they stood for and they tried to rein him in as well. There is a video that shows one of the security outriders surprised at being stood down just before the cavalcade started (but who knows whether it's genuine?)
I think that Hoover found he could not blackmail any of the Kennedies into obedience and worked with organised crime to get rid of them. He was in the perfect position to do it, he was much more concerned about issues of political outlook and sexual habits than the criminal businesses and he had tabs on everybody so he could lean on them. There need only be a very small inside conspiracy of hard-liners who'd reckon that Johnson was more of a good ol' boy who wouldn't push too many liberal changes. It probably surprised them that he pushed civil rights as hard as he did but Robert K was still around to add some weight to that.
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Post by gabriel on Nov 2, 2009 9:28:25 GMT
Take your pick of suspects lined up to kill JFK. I think the fact that Ruby killed Oswald and Ruby was a known underworld figure, lends a lot of credence to the Mafia being involved somewhere along the line.
Yes, it is surprising that after all this time no-one has ever definitively come forward to say 'I was involved'. However, if you read enough conspiracy books, you hear the stories of people who did try to do just that and who were taken out.
Who knows how true they are.
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Post by Big Lin on Nov 2, 2009 13:42:25 GMT
On the other hand, there's been disinformation on BOTH sides.
For instance, Oswald WAS a crack shot and NOT the klutz with a gun his defenders make out.
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Post by Liberator on Nov 2, 2009 14:57:18 GMT
What motive would he have to kill Kennedy? A Communist living in Texas is weird enough but Kennedy was far less of a cold warrior than any alternative. Hostility usually came from the Right. I've sometimes wondered if Oswald was set up on the other side, told that he was in place to protect against an assassin and then the roles switched. That would make his own assassination essential.
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