♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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karma:
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 17, 2016 15:56:49 GMT
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jul 17, 2016 16:15:11 GMT
Anna - Once you know what those lookout towers were for they'll catch your eye when you visit places like Positano, Italy. Those towers are everywhere along the coast. People were clearly afraid of being surprised and kidnapped by Muslim pirate slave traders. The figure that sticks in my mind is that over the years, they kidnapped 1 to 1.2 Million. When you consider that they only kidnapped young healthy people having value in the slave markets of North Africa, it means that they disrupted the lives of many more than that. Old people were often killed and so were any who fought and resisted their attacks. It is unclear what happened to small children and infants but nothing good, I'm sure of that. They made seaside living dangerous and the same for shipping. This was very problematic for commerce because overland shipping was so difficult. In those days, the roads were dirt and poorly maintained. There were no trucks or motorized vehicles, only ox carts. There were issues of roaming bandits too. Shipping was much easier but the pirates made that method equally difficult and risky. With trade so disrupted, economic recessions were common. I think Bill Warner was right when he said we've been at war with Islam for fourteen centuries. When we have major incidents like Nice and Orlando, why don't we call it war?? Why pretend?
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jul 17, 2016 16:38:21 GMT
My worry is that when our leadership finally awakens to the problem of Muslim immigration and birthrates, it may be too late. They should start to get it when European countries like Sweden begin converting to Sharia law once they have Muslim majority populations. Though not as big a problem as Muslim immigration, Mexican and Latino immigration is problematic for America. California is now majority Latino. Many Latinos have been in the USA for generations, are American citizens, and can vote. They'll almost always vote against Trump or anyone else who opposes open borders. That's because, even though they themselves are citizens, they have relatives still south of the border. They want to bring in grandma, uncles, aunts, nephews, etc.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jul 17, 2016 18:12:56 GMT
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 18, 2016 19:39:56 GMT
All this is just hysterical propaganda.
Of course there are people calling themselves Muslims - on the whole, NOT actually Muslims since they consistently carry out deeds that are specifically FORBIDDEN by the Quran so they are hypocrites - who do bad things.
Just as there are people calling themselves Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Marxists, atheists and so on who do bad things.
I've reached the conclusion that to those whose brains are warped by prejudice no amount of facts and reason will stop them believing their comforting propaganda no matter how false it is.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2016 20:05:25 GMT
I'm curious Big Lin, I have a hard time accepting that you do not believe that that there was a Caliphate expanding Islamic borders in Africa to cover a large portion of the European coastal region and in some case far inland.
Trying to find common ground is usually difficult, but any serious attempt to do so begins with developing and agreeing to facts.
I believe that from Africa Islam did attack and conquer significant parts of Europe and held it for many years.
I also believe that the Carthaginians did things quite similar long before the first Caliphate. I also believe after the Carthaginians Rome made major inroads into the middle East and in Africa (at least as far as Egypt. My impression from your words is that you do not believe the Islam made such a Caliphate into an invasion of Europe?
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jul 18, 2016 20:46:33 GMT
All this is just hysterical propaganda. Of course there are people calling themselves Muslims - on the whole, NOT actually Muslims since they consistently carry out deeds that are specifically FORBIDDEN by the Quran so they are hypocrites - who do bad things. Just as there are people calling themselves Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Marxists, atheists and so on who do bad things. I've reached the conclusion that to those whose brains are warped by prejudice no amount of facts and reason will stop them believing their comforting propaganda no matter how false it is. It seems that there is much disagreement as to which Muslims are real Muslims. Sunnis don't believe Shias are real Muslims. In one sense, the ISIS terrorists are the most legitimate Muslims of all because they are closely emulating the actions of the Prophet Mohammad. He was a brutal warlord who kept slaves, beheaded enemies, killed Jews, Christians, and other unbelievers.
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 19, 2016 8:21:16 GMT
All this is just hysterical propaganda. Of course there are people calling themselves Muslims - on the whole, NOT actually Muslims since they consistently carry out deeds that are specifically FORBIDDEN by the Quran so they are hypocrites - who do bad things. Just as there are people calling themselves Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Marxists, atheists and so on who do bad things. I've reached the conclusion that to those whose brains are warped by prejudice no amount of facts and reason will stop them believing their comforting propaganda no matter how false it is. Big Lin people are getting sick of giving Islam a free pass and showing a double standard political correctness that we'd never give the Westboro Baptists or the Manson cult. Yes Islam will conquer Europe in a few decades.
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 20, 2016 18:53:52 GMT
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 21, 2016 16:00:58 GMT
I'm getting a bit tired of hearing the same tired old record - especially when a lot of the time the tunes it plays are lies.
Can't anyone find something a bit more varied to post on?
Or has everyone been mysteriously hypnotised into an inability to reason, judge and take an interest in the wider world?
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 21, 2016 16:08:28 GMT
I'm curious Big Lin, I have a hard time accepting that you do not believe that that there was a Caliphate expanding Islamic borders in Africa to cover a large portion of the European coastal region and in some case far inland. Trying to find common ground is usually difficult, but any serious attempt to do so begins with developing and agreeing to facts. I believe that from Africa Islam did attack and conquer significant parts of Europe and held it for many years. I also believe that the Carthaginians did things quite similar long before the first Caliphate. I also believe after the Carthaginians Rome made major inroads into the middle East and in Africa (at least as far as Egypt. My impression from your words is that you do not believe the Islam made such a Caliphate into an invasion of Europe? There were only two periods in Muslim history when there was a unified Caliphate - the first from 632 AD to 661, the second from 1512 to 1923. The Caliphate was, from 661 to 1492, split into a Western and Eastern Caliphate (both believing theirs to be the 'true' Caliphate. And of course the Shia Muslims NEVER accepted the validity of the Caliphate. The Caliphate only ever applied to Sunni Muslims. Now it's certainly true that troops from Morocco conquered Spain and Portugal (except, I'm proud to say, as someone with Basque blood in me, NOT the Basque country where we DEFEATED the Moroccan troops in 718). They tried to conquer France but were defeated by Charles Martel in 732. Incidentally, the famous 'Chanson de Roland' is a pack of propagandist lies; the TRUTH is that Charlemagne was conducting a war AGAINST the Christians in Spain (particularly the Basques) and in COLLABORATION with the Moors. But propaganda can become myth as we all know; Tonypandy is a twentieth-century example. I believe that Muslims at various times in their history invaded Europe; just as non-Muslims at various times in their history invaded Muslim lands. But the extent to which religion played much part in the Muslim conquests (at least from around 700 onwards) rather than simple imperialism and territorial expansion is pretty dubious.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jul 21, 2016 16:32:12 GMT
I'm getting a bit tired of hearing the same tired old record - especially when a lot of the time the tunes it plays are lies. Can't anyone find something a bit more varied to post on? Or has everyone been mysteriously hypnotised into an inability to reason, judge and take an interest in the wider world? Lin - I would say this topic is being brought forward by a continuing stream of newsworthy current events. Whenever and wherever there is another heinous terrorist attack spawned by ISIL, Al Queda, or Hamas that's going to dominate the news and stimulate more postings to discussion boards. The recent past has been replete with these attacks and the resulting discussions. San Bernardino, Baghdad, Orlando, Paris, Nice, Istanbul, and now Germany have all been in play. Atrocities by ISIL in Syria and Iraq also create news reports aong with those in Tunisia, Libya, and elsewhere. Where is Putin when we need him to change the topic with another of his thug like actions? I'm sure he'll be back in action before too long. Meanwhile, enjoy the video history lessons which have been quite interesting.
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Post by Scottish Lassie on Jul 21, 2016 19:16:20 GMT
I have always believed that it was possible to invade a country and then take over that country by peaceful means just by having children, and having these children occupy all the top posts where they will make the laws and be in authority. Eventually it happens and they rule the country. But it could happen in the future that when there are enough Muslims they could decide to rise up and take over via civil war. That's what I think could happen in regard to Christian countries in the future.
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Post by Big Lin on Jul 21, 2016 21:51:56 GMT
I'm getting a bit tired of hearing the same tired old record - especially when a lot of the time the tunes it plays are lies. Can't anyone find something a bit more varied to post on? Or has everyone been mysteriously hypnotised into an inability to reason, judge and take an interest in the wider world? Lin - I would say this topic is being brought forward by a continuing stream of newsworthy current events. Whenever and wherever there is another heinous terrorist attack spawned by ISIL, Al Queda, or Hamas that's going to dominate the news and stimulate more postings to discussion boards. The recent past has been replete with these attacks and the resulting discussions. San Bernardino, Baghdad, Orlando, Paris, Nice, Istanbul, and now Germany have all been in play. Atrocities by ISIL in Syria and Iraq also create news reports aong with those in Tunisia, Libya, and elsewhere. Where is Putin when we need him to change the topic with another of his thug like actions? I'm sure he'll be back in action before too long. Meanwhile, enjoy the video history lessons which have been quite interesting. History of course is supposed to be about facts; so when poseurs like French alias Warner make one inaccurate and false statement after another I'd say 'entertaining' was the word rather than interesting. And of course you choose to focus only on so-called Muslim terrorists (most of whose actions are specifically forbidden by the Quran which makes them about as Muslim as the KKK are Christian). Frankly there have been more PKK atrocities in Turkey than ISIS ones (though they're trying to catch up). Anyway, going away tomorrow and won't be back till Monday. Let's hope members can find some different subjects to talk about because it's getting very tiring. My Turkish brother-in-law is getting very tired of having to try to justify his existence to prejudiced Islamophobes.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jul 21, 2016 22:59:37 GMT
Lin - I would say this topic is being brought forward by a continuing stream of newsworthy current events. Whenever and wherever there is another heinous terrorist attack spawned by ISIL, Al Queda, or Hamas that's going to dominate the news and stimulate more postings to discussion boards. The recent past has been replete with these attacks and the resulting discussions. San Bernardino, Baghdad, Orlando, Paris, Nice, Istanbul, and now Germany have all been in play. Atrocities by ISIL in Syria and Iraq also create news reports aong with those in Tunisia, Libya, and elsewhere. Where is Putin when we need him to change the topic with another of his thug like actions? I'm sure he'll be back in action before too long. Meanwhile, enjoy the video history lessons which have been quite interesting. History of course is supposed to be about facts; so when poseurs like French alias Warner make one inaccurate and false statement after another I'd say 'entertaining' was the word rather than interesting. And of course you choose to focus only on so-called Muslim terrorists (most of whose actions are specifically forbidden by the Quran which makes them about as Muslim as the KKK are Christian). Frankly there have been more PKK atrocities in Turkey than ISIS ones (though they're trying to catch up). Anyway, going away tomorrow and won't be back till Monday. Let's hope members can find some different subjects to talk about because it's getting very tiring. My Turkish brother-in-law is getting very tired of having to try to justify his existence to prejudiced Islamophobes. Lin - I would say your criticisms of Warner are a bit extreme. I see him as an intelligent and very well educated researcher who has taken a strong personal interest in the history of Islam. The deeper he goes and the closer he looks at it, the worse it looks. I fully agree with Warner's overall conclusion that Islam's only successes have come via Jihad against unbelievers. I believe you and I are both unbelievers. Should Islamic Sharia Law be established in our countries, it would not go well for the two of us. Regarding the PKK, I think the Kurds should have their own country with a piece of Iraq, a piece of Turkey, a piece of Syria, and a piece of Iran. That's not likely to happen but it would be the best solution. The Kurds are arguably the most sane group in that region.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2016 1:18:15 GMT
Yes, I agree Big Lin, history should be about facts. History can be for some a calling, even a vocation and in that, very personal. The more involved and the deeper one gets into the details of some segment of history, the more obvious it is that many historians use it for more than facts as they grasp it as a tool to achieve a political agenda. An example here is Howard Zinn who has B.A. from New York University and an M.A. and Ph.D. from Columbia University in history. He is one of those people who you hold up as an actual historian, the opposite of Bill Warner. Howard Zinn is the author of the book “A People’s History of the United States.” Promoted as a history book and used throughout many Universities it has influenced many youths. And yet. . . . . . . . it is a pure propaganda publication demonstrating a near hatred of the United States.
My point is, honesty doesn’t come with a title. The ‘facts’ of Howard Zinn’s book can be checked and if one does so, it will be found lacking and is obviously focusing on a political agenda changing actual historic facts. Yes, Big Lin, history should be about facts. However, it would be more correct to say that written history is about facts as presented by the writer. Written history is often warped by a political agenda.
Those who read history as written by others should do their own checking to come to their own conclusions. I believe you and I have done that as to the works Bill Warner. Obviously we have come to two different conclusions. I have check many of the facts he has presented and have not found them wanting. For example, presentation of the attacks of Islam on Europe. I too had sought evidence of these attacks and had gather such evidence from the time of the beginning of Islam to the time of the Crusades. When I subsequently became aware of Bill Warner I matched my findings against his and the only thing I found wrong with his presentation was that mine had ‘more’ attacks by Islam into Europe. That is, I find him credible.
I realize that you have come to a different opinion of him although I believe that your focusing on his use of the phrase, “they were speaking Rome” has resulted in a misunderstanding of his intent on your part.
But that and other things aside, I strongly believe that the culture of Islam is not compatible with Western culture. I believe that any contacts will be abrasive at best and will result in aggressive contacts between them. I believe that if the West had not gone after the energy sources in the Mideast, and thereby caused an infusion of wealth into the Mideast, there would be little contact today. But that is coming to an end as the West is developing far more energy sources in the West than ever existed in the Mideast. With that reality the wealth of the Mideast will begin to diminish. Of course the danger is that those of the Mideast have (and are) acquiring weapons of mass-destruction. I also believe that due to the Islamic philosophy, the odds are that they will use those weapons. What will happen then will not be good for anyone.
Within this reality the facts presented by Bill Warner are significant as they contribute (if used) to Western government understanding of Islamic established governments.
You can (and probably will) continue to imply that what you offer are ‘the’ facts, and continue to wonder at the lack of acceptance of them by others.
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Post by kronks on Jul 22, 2016 4:15:52 GMT
I'm curious Big Lin, I have a hard time accepting that you do not believe that that there was a Caliphate expanding Islamic borders in Africa to cover a large portion of the European coastal region and in some case far inland. Trying to find common ground is usually difficult, but any serious attempt to do so begins with developing and agreeing to facts. I believe that from Africa Islam did attack and conquer significant parts of Europe and held it for many years. I also believe that the Carthaginians did things quite similar long before the first Caliphate. I also believe after the Carthaginians Rome made major inroads into the middle East and in Africa (at least as far as Egypt. My impression from your words is that you do not believe the Islam made such a Caliphate into an invasion of Europe? Often conquests are only possible when replacing something even worse. Not always though. But didn't the USA essential fail in Afghanistan and Iraq because the locals preferred Islam rule to the corruption riddled alternative?
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 22, 2016 13:39:25 GMT
Lin - I would say this topic is being brought forward by a continuing stream of newsworthy current events. Whenever and wherever there is another heinous terrorist attack spawned by ISIL, Al Queda, or Hamas that's going to dominate the news and stimulate more postings to discussion boards. The recent past has been replete with these attacks and the resulting discussions. San Bernardino, Baghdad, Orlando, Paris, Nice, Istanbul, and now Germany have all been in play. Atrocities by ISIL in Syria and Iraq also create news reports aong with those in Tunisia, Libya, and elsewhere. Where is Putin when we need him to change the topic with another of his thug like actions? I'm sure he'll be back in action before too long. Meanwhile, enjoy the video history lessons which have been quite interesting. History of course is supposed to be about facts; so when poseurs like French alias Warner make one inaccurate and false statement after another I'd say 'entertaining' was the word rather than interesting. And of course you choose to focus only on so-called Muslim terrorists (most of whose actions are specifically forbidden by the Quran which makes them about as Muslim as the KKK are Christian). Frankly there have been more PKK atrocities in Turkey than ISIS ones (though they're trying to catch up). Anyway, going away tomorrow and won't be back till Monday. Let's hope members can find some different subjects to talk about because it's getting very tiring. My Turkish brother-in-law is getting very tired of having to try to justify his existence to prejudiced Islamophobes. Big Lin your Muslim brother in law simply has to openly denounce the excesses of Fundamentalist Sharia Islam and support others who do as other truly moderate anti Sharia Muslims do. It disturbs me how so many Muslims just want the topic of atrocities done in the name of Islam hushed up.
I certainly have understanding for people who are disturbed by Old Testament scriptures and welcome their freedom to discuss this openly. I don't whine about Christianophobes. Why do passive Muslims who whine, play the victim and avoid the issues get a free pass? We support free speech and open debate in Western civilisation. If your brother in law supports censor, ignoring and hushing up what's being done in the name of Islam by others and wants us censored then sorry he's part of the problem.
I take these Westboro Baptists apart even though they don't commit violent acts and there's only about 20 active members. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church . It's politically correct to make a media sensation out of the WBs, but we have to dummy up and be Islamophiles, etc. when a non Christian religion preaches hate and even becomes violent.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2016 15:57:35 GMT
Anna, you’ve hit the nail right on the head. I really don’t care if someone supports Islam or doesn’t, or for that matter any other religion, open discussion is always best. And yes, it is apparent that when people begin to talk about the philosophy of Islam, others get very defensive. That is, they seem to get defensive about any talk of what they perceive as being negative about Islam.
While the talking about Islam may seem negative, it is less about the religious aspect than about its direct involvement on government. Personally I don’t care what type of religious philosophy anyone wants to believe in, but rather only in the sense that it tries to control the government of others. If someone wants to believe in tree spirits or that a shaman can chant direct contact to a God or Gods, I don’t care, but when they use that to control nonbelievers into adherence to their religion, that is open to debate. When a religion uses the strength of their religion tied into government to sentence others to personal punishment or death, for their personal beliefs, that religion is open for debate.
More importantly, when such dialog does occur and the speaker is attacked rather than the content, then that religion is open to debate. A perfect example is the Westboro Baptists when they demonstrate in ways that harms others (such as disrupting funerals) they are open to debate. On the other hand, those who do things not normally accepted such as speaking in tongues or dancing with snakes (both as examples of Christian sects) within their own services they are personally free to do so without harassment.
The problem as I see it, is the clashing of different cultures. More to the point, the clashing of very different practices within differing cultures. Personally I don’t care if some culture has specific dietary requirements, that has no impact on me, unless I run a restaurant and am required to serve specific types of food. Or if I run a bakery and am forced to provide cakes designed in ways I find offensive. In Western culture such restrictions are being forced on business owners in the name of political correctness. This ‘forcing’ is not part of Western culture. However, outside of Western culture there are areas where it is normal to enact such forcing of laws. Even in that difference there is no real problem but when those of another culture bring those restrictions to areas of Western culture and try to enforce them, then that, at the very least is open to debate. A debate not allowed in other cultures.
Bill Warner has been pilloried (verbally) by some for what he has offered. Apparently some believe that his offered information is wrong and apparently then the assumption is that he is a ‘bad’ person who only does this for ulterior reasons. At the same time others have found what he offers to be worthy and accurate. Certainly that difference is open to dialog. But a civil dialog and not one that is based on impugning the character of Bill Warner or others.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2016 16:36:08 GMT
I'm curious Big Lin, I have a hard time accepting that you do not believe that that there was a Caliphate expanding Islamic borders in Africa to cover a large portion of the European coastal region and in some case far inland. Trying to find common ground is usually difficult, but any serious attempt to do so begins with developing and agreeing to facts. I believe that from Africa Islam did attack and conquer significant parts of Europe and held it for many years. I also believe that the Carthaginians did things quite similar long before the first Caliphate. I also believe after the Carthaginians Rome made major inroads into the middle East and in Africa (at least as far as Egypt. My impression from your words is that you do not believe the Islam made such a Caliphate into an invasion of Europe? There were only two periods in Muslim history when there was a unified Caliphate - the first from 632 AD to 661, the second from 1512 to 1923. The Caliphate was, from 661 to 1492, split into a Western and Eastern Caliphate (both believing theirs to be the 'true' Caliphate. And of course the Shia Muslims NEVER accepted the validity of the Caliphate. The Caliphate only ever applied to Sunni Muslims. Now it's certainly true that troops from Morocco conquered Spain and Portugal (except, I'm proud to say, as someone with Basque blood in me, NOT the Basque country where we DEFEATED the Moroccan troops in 718). They tried to conquer France but were defeated by Charles Martel in 732. Incidentally, the famous 'Chanson de Roland' is a pack of propagandist lies; the TRUTH is that Charlemagne was conducting a war AGAINST the Christians in Spain (particularly the Basques) and in COLLABORATION with the Moors. But propaganda can become myth as we all know; Tonypandy is a twentieth-century example. I believe that Muslims at various times in their history invaded Europe; just as non-Muslims at various times in their history invaded Muslim lands. But the extent to which religion played much part in the Muslim conquests (at least from around 700 onwards) rather than simple imperialism and territorial expansion is pretty dubious. Big Lin, your comment, “ . . . But the extent to which religion played much part in the Muslim conquests (at least from around 700 onwards) rather than simple imperialism and territorial expansion is pretty dubious. . . . “ I guess that we have quite different understandings of Islam. When Islam grows to the point that it is large enough to become the government, it becomes the driving and defining force of government defining the Caliphate (border limits) of that government and, it defines the efforts to expand those border limits. When a government expands by Caliphate using the process of Jihad it is by definition religious because the separation of a secular government doesn’t exist. It is a government defined and driven by Islam. Another of your comments, “ . . . There were only two periods in Muslim history when there was a unified Caliphate - the first from 632 AD to 661, the second from 1512 to 1923. . . . . The Caliphate was, from 661 to 1492, split into a Western and Eastern Caliphate (both believing theirs to be the 'true' Caliphate. . ..“ supports the point that from around 632 CE to 1923 CE there has been an expansionist Caliphate. That because of ruler differences within the various leaders, a point can be made that there has been no letup in the expansionist Caliphate, nor is there today. Such as 'Chanson de Roland' and ‘Tonypandy’ notwithstanding, the various segments of Islam attack Europe from the West to the East with primary justification being one of expansion of Islam. That such tied in with the personal goals of various rulers is beside the point. That Sunni Islam and Shia Islam do not see eye to eye on all things is true. They do not even believe each other to be true Muslims. That they pick their leaders in differing methods makes little difference to those of us who are People of the Book or Kafir, as we are of no account within either Sect of Islam. Today’s Islam (both Sunni and Shia) represent Islamic Philosophies alien to Western Philosophy. I have little doubt that there are individual Muslims who do not accept the hard fist approach to non-Muslims but I suggest that if they push that perspective they are likely to be declared Apostate. If so, it is also likely that (by at least some Imams) they will be subject to the penalty of death as I am (being an Atheist). My primary point has been and remains, that Islamic based culture is incompatible with Western culture and that there is no way that the two can live among each other without one dominating the other.
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