Could the Universe be Fake?

[Deleted]

Aug 14, 2015 9:57:02 GMT Scottish Lassie said:

Aug 13, 2015 15:43:41 GMT @menantol said:

Of the things you have stated over many posts Scottish Lassie, here is something than could be proved or disproved to the satisfaction of all, that is was that drink poisoned or not. It is a relatively simple procedure to pump a stomach and analyze the contents.

His illness may have been no more than an upset stomach or, food poisoning without human intent, or any number of things. What you are relating is a conclusion that is 'not' backed with any evidence at all. More over, even if someone did intentionally give him poison, the assumed motivation that it was to end his description of his religion is not proved. If there was human intent it could just as easily have been due to a competing splinter religion getting rid of the competition or it could just as easily have been someone within his own organization in a power grab.

My point here is that no one knows if the drink was poisoned and if it was poisoned no one knows why.

You do yourself and position no favors by confidently asserting that is was to silence his words. To further say that it was diminishing his freedom of speech is a bridge too far. That is, that is an act of the State and that is not only not proven but there is no proof that the States cared about him (and his religion) one way or another. 

Hi Men an tol, I wouldn't like to live in your head, you give the impression that you distrust everything that anyone says, which makes me think that you are constantly suspicious of everyone. I certainly wouldn't want to live that way

Well Scottish Lassie for someone who professes love for others as a main way of looking at life (or words to that affect) it seems that you are describing yourself.

Your leader becomes ill and subsequently dies. It couldn't be some natural circumstance but rather the result of 'others' (unnamed) who were intent on silencing him and his message. No proof, no real evidence, just a belief that he was persecuted and intentionally killed. Now that would seem to be evidence of people who distrust others and are suspicious. You are right, living that way must be terrible.

All I did was ask for evidence of those working to take away his 'freedom of speech.' As of yet, no such evidence. There is no evidence provided that 'others' outside of the movement even cared what he was saying.

To me it is a serious accusation to make the claim that others were taking away his right of free speech and so I asked reasonable questions because I would like to know who those others are. The only ones who seem to be really upset with him are former members of the movement and I have no way of knowing the veracity of their stated concerns.

Personally, I have no care about Paul Twitchell or his religious movement. To me he is simply one of many such people and movements which come into being with most disappearing without a trace. A few become successful (in terms of existing) to one degree or another. There is nothing new about that as such has occurred throughout known history. That some people find things in those movements that are of value to their lives is also neither here nor there to me.

Am I a skeptic? Of course, as I am a human and that is a normal and healthy attribute of our species.

[♫anna♫]

What is fake? Anything we can imagine has some form of existence. Even the most absurd things has something corresponding in our imagination giving them an existence.

The only concept I can't imagine is absolute nothingness. A black empty vacuum is not nothingness.

[Scottish Lassie]

Aug 12, 2015 19:39:48 GMT interestedbob said:

Aug 10, 2015 21:57:22 GMT Scottish Lassie said:

Hi Anna, Anything is possible, Paul Twitchel was driving his car very fast once and when turning a corner lost control.it was about to turn over and crash, when a huge arm came out of the sky and set the car upright preventing a crash.

The occupants of the cars following behind, saw this take place, so were witnesses to this incident. So maybe we are not as big as we think we are compared to what else is out there.

Is there any documented evidence that that ever happened, Scottish Lassie , and if so, where can it be found?

Hi Interested Bob, I think I have remembered some more about the incident, that will
change things somewhat. The people that saw the incident, may not have seen an arm descend out of the heavens at all.

I think what really happened, when Paul Twitchell lost control of the car and it was in the process of turning over, he had an out of the body experience and soul was above the car, that is when he saw a huge arm reach down and grab the car turning it upright and therefore preventing an accident, then he was back in his body again.

This can happen by itself, as has happened to me. Or the person can instigate it themselves if they have the know
how. No doubt it will
still sound unbelievable, but it did happen, but it will explain why perhaps there were no reports about the incident to be found.

[Scottish Lassie]

Aug 14, 2015 12:21:26 GMT @menantol said:

Aug 14, 2015 9:57:02 GMT Scottish Lassie said:

Hi Men an tol, I wouldn't like to live in your head, you give the impression that you distrust everything that anyone says, which makes me think that you are constantly suspicious of everyone. I certainly wouldn't want to live that way

Well Scottish Lassie for someone who professes love for others as a main way of looking at life (or words to that affect) it seems that you are describing yourself.

Your leader becomes ill and subsequently dies. It couldn't be some natural circumstance but rather the result of 'others' (unnamed) who were intent on silencing him and his message. No proof, no real
evidence, just a belief that he was persecuted and intentionally killed. Now that would seem to be evidence of people who distrust others and are suspicious. You are right, living that way must be terrible.

All I did was ask for evidence of those working to take away his 'freedom of speech.' As of yet, no such evidence.There
is no evidence provided that 'others' outside of the movement even cared what he was saying.

To me it is a serious accusation to make the claim that others were taking away his right of free speech and so I asked reasonable questions because I would like to know who those others are. The only ones who seem to be really upset with him are former members of the movement and I have no way of knowing the veracity of their stated concerns.

Personally, I have no care about Paul Twitchell or his religious movement. To me he is simply one of many such people and movements which come into being with most disappearing without a trace. A few become successful (in terms of existing) to one degree or another. There is nothing new about that as such has occurred throughout known history. That some people find things in those movements that are of value to their lives is also neither here nor there to me.

Am I a skeptic? Of course, as I am a human and that is a normal and healthy attribute of our species.

Not in my book Men an tol, It seems very distrustful to me, with all your suggestions as to what happened. Don't you think if he was ill that he wouldn't have been hospitalised?

And don't you think that the medical staff would have
investigated as to the reason for his illness and ofcourse have discovered that he had been poisoned. You seem to go out of your way to try and sabotage anything that I have to say?

[Scottish Lassie]

Aug 14, 2015 14:09:40 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

What is fake? Anything we can imagine has some form of existence. Even the most absurd things has something corresponding in our imagination giving them an existence.

The only concept I can't imagine is absolute nothingness. A black empty vacuum is not nothingness.

Hi Anna, Because of the out of the body experiences that I have had, I know there is life after the demise of the human body. I have even travelled up the tunnel that so many people have spoken about.

Another experience that I had which might correspond with the Geek post. I awoke in the middle of the night and suddenly saw a whole lot of writing moving quickly past my vision. It made me feel as if information was being pumped into my brain as If I was a robot, and maybe that is what we are.

We humans are doing that also, creating robots and using computers to animate them. Perhaps that is what an advanced race of people have done to us. That would indeed be very funny if it turned out to be true. We live in a strange universe that's for sure!!!

[Deleted]

Aug 14, 2015 15:16:14 GMT Scottish Lassie said:

Aug 14, 2015 12:21:26 GMT @menantol said:

Well Scottish Lassie for someone who professes love for others as a main way of looking at life (or words to that affect) it seems that you are describing yourself.

Your leader becomes ill and subsequently dies. It couldn't be some natural circumstance but rather the result of 'others' (unnamed) who were intent on silencing him and his message. No proof, no real
evidence, just a belief that he was persecuted and intentionally killed. Now that would seem to be evidence of people who distrust others and are suspicious. You are right, living that way must be terrible.

All I did was ask for evidence of those working to take away his 'freedom of speech.' As of yet, no such evidence.There
is no evidence provided that 'others' outside of the movement even cared what he was saying.

To me it is a serious accusation to make the claim that others were taking away his right of free speech and so I asked reasonable questions because I would like to know who those others are. The only ones who seem to be really upset with him are former members of the movement and I have no way of knowing the veracity of their stated concerns.

Personally, I have no care about Paul Twitchell or his religious movement. To me he is simply one of many such people and movements which come into being with most disappearing without a trace. A few become successful (in terms of existing) to one degree or another. There is nothing new about that as such has occurred throughout known history. That some people find things in those movements that are of value to their lives is also neither here nor there to me.

Am I a skeptic? Of course, as I am a human and that is a normal and healthy attribute of our species.

Not in my book Men an tol, It seems very distrustful to me, with all your suggestions as to what happened. Don't you think if he was ill that he wouldn't have been hospitalised?

And don't you think that the medical staff would have
investigated as to the reason for his illness and ofcourse have discovered that he had been poisoned. You seem to go out of your way to try and sabotage anything that I have to say?

That is really twisting things Scottish Lassie.

You are the one who brought up the assertion that your leader, your group, is having their freedom of speech taken away from them. To me that is serious and I was wondering where that might be going on and who was doing it. I wasn't questioning the veracity of your assertion.

Then you replied with, describing this event where your leader was speaking and got ill and died due to that poisoning. More over you are the one who asserted that his illness came from a drink someone (unnamed) gave him and then asserted that this drink was poisoned. These are very serious allegations.

If he went to a hospital, and if they pumped his stomach, and if they analyzed the contents, and if the contents proved to be poison, then the police would have been called by the hospital and there were be official reports. I have yet to find any official records describing anything that you have described.

From “Dialogue in the Age of Criticism”, Chap. 4, by Doug Marman: “ . . . How could Paul have been poisoned to death in Spain or Czechoslovakia, and no one be quite sure? I’ve never heard that one before. Yes, it is true that not a lot has been said about Paul's trip to Spain where he was poisoned, still the fact remains that he returned alive and lived for more than a year after this until his passing in Cincinnati on September 17, 1971. So, obviously, Paul wasn't poisoned to death. . . . “ Paul Twitchell died September 17, 1971, of a heart attack in Cincinnati, Ohio while attending an Eckankar seminar.

Now, I could go into more as it is easy to find things about his death, but that is not and never has been my point, rather, I wanted to see defined the acts of taking away freedom of speech and who was doing it. As of yet there is no real reply to that question. My offering of possible causes of his poisoning were merely to emphasize that it is open and undefined. In fact, that since there was apparently a year between the alleged poisoning event and his death a reasonable assumption (emphasize it is only an assumption) that his death is not connected to the poisoning.

Your comment (question), referring to me, “ . . . You seem to go out of your way to try and sabotage anything that I have to say? . . . “ is far removed from reality. Our challenge in communication is that I deal in provable realities of evidence that are reachable by our senses and you deal in misty unreachable beliefs only understandable by those (apparently such as yourself) who have the special power to see (feel) them. When asked to provide empirical evidence you generally retreat into some mythical position that only the initiated can really understand or become defense, but straight foreword answers are missing. Here with this asserted poisoning event that barrier could be crossed as actual evidence should be available, but even here you respond with innuendo and assumptions and then retreat into a defensive posture.

Personally I don't care what position you take, but as I have stated, I do have an interest when freedoms are attacked and in this case freedom of speech. As near as I can tell, neither your leaders nor the organization have suffered any reduction of freedom and certainly no reduction in speech. 

[interestedbob]

Hi Interested Bob, I think I have remembered some more about the incident, that will
change things somewhat. The people that saw the incident, may not have seen an arm descend out of the heavens at all.

I think what really happened, when Paul Twitchell lost control of the car and it was in the process of turning over, he had an out of the body experience and soul was above the car, that is when he saw a huge arm reach down and grab the car turning it upright and therefore preventing an accident, then he was back in his body again.

This can happen by itself, as has happened to me. Or the person can instigate it themselves if they have the know
how. No doubt it will
still sound unbelievable, but it did happen, but it will explain why perhaps there were no reports about the incident to be found.

So nobody actually saw the huge arm come out of the sky and stop the car from crashing, after all, Scottish Lassie? Paul Twitchell is the only person who saw it at all, and he saw it in a dream.

This thread is about an article based on pure speculation, and you provide 'evidence' from somebody else's dream to support it. This whole conversation must be in the running to win the "Most Totally Pointless Conversation Ever" title.


I'm not surprised the word 'Gullible' is to be removed from the Dictionary.

[Scottish Lassie]

Aug 14, 2015 16:08:13 GMT @menantol said:

Aug 14, 2015 15:16:14 GMT Scottish Lassie said:

Not in my book Men an tol, It seems very distrustful to me, with all your suggestions as to what happened. Don't you think if he was ill that he wouldn't have been hospitalised?

And don't you think that the medical staff would have
investigated as to the reason for his illness and ofcourse have discovered that he had been poisoned. You seem to go out of your way to try and sabotage anything that I have to say?

That is really twisting things Scottish Lassie.

You are the one who brought up the
assertion that your leader, your group, is having their freedom of speech taken away from them. To me that is serious and I was wondering where that might be going on and who was doing it. I wasn't questioning the veracity of your assertion.

Then you replied with, describing this event where your leader was speaking and got ill and died due to that poisoning. More over you are the one who asserted that his illness came from a drink someone (unnamed) gave him and then asserted that this drink was poisoned. These are very serious allegations.

If he went to a hospital, and if they pumped his stomach, and if they analyzed the contents, and if the contents proved to be poison, then the police would have been called by the hospital and there were be official reports. I have yet to find any official records describing anything that you have described.

From “Dialogue in the Age of Criticism”, Chap. 4, by Doug Marman: “ . . . How could Paul have been poisoned to death in Spain or Czechoslovakia, and no one be quite sure? I’ve never heard that one before. Yes, it is true that not a lot has been said about Paul's trip to Spain where he was poisoned, still the fact remains that he returned alive and lived for more than a year after this until his passing in Cincinnati on September 17, 1971. So, obviously, Paul wasn't poisoned to death. . . . “ Paul Twitchell died September 17, 1971, of a heart attack in Cincinnati, Ohio while attending an Eckankar seminar.

Now, I could go into more as it is easy to find things about his death, but that is not and never has been my point, rather, I wanted to see defined the acts of taking away freedom of speech and who was doing it. As of yet there is no real reply to that question. My offering of possible causes of his poisoning were merely to emphasize that it is open and undefined. In fact, that since there was apparently a year between the alleged poisoning event and his death a reasonable assumption (emphasize it is only an assumption) that his death is not connected to the poisoning.

Your comment (question), referring to me, “ . . . You seem to go out of your way to try and sabotage anything that I have to say? . . . “ is far removed from reality. Our challenge in communication is that I deal in provable realities of evidence that are reachable by our senses and you deal in misty unreachable beliefs only understandable by those (apparently such as yourself) who have the special power to see (feel) them. When asked to provide empirical evidence you generally retreat into some mythical position that only the initiated can really understand or become defense, but straight foreword answers are missing. Here with this asserted poisoning event that barrier could be crossed as actual evidence should be available, but even here you respond with innuendo and assumptions and then retreat into a defensive posture.

Personally I don't care what position you take, but as I have stated, I do have an interest when freedoms are attacked and in this case freedom of speech. As near as I can tell, neither your leaders nor the organization have suffered any reduction of freedom and certainly no reduction in speech. 

[interestedbob]

?

[Scottish Lassie]

Aug 14, 2015 16:41:29 GMT interestedbob said:

Hi Interested Bob, I think I have remembered some more about the incident, that will
change things somewhat. The people that saw the incident, may not have seen an arm descend out of the heavens at all.

I think what really happened, when Paul Twitchell lost control of the car and it was in the process of turning over, he had an out of the body experience and soul was above the car, that is when he saw a huge arm reach down and grab the car turning it upright and therefore preventing an accident, then he was back in his body again.

This can happen by itself, as has happened to me. Or the person can instigate it themselves if they have the know
how. No doubt it will
still sound unbelievable, but it did happen, but it will explain why perhaps there were no reports about the incident to be found.

So nobody actually saw the huge arm come out of the sky and stop the car from crashing, after all, Scottish Lassie? Paul Twitchell is the only person who saw it at all, and he saw it in a dream.

This thread is about an article based on pure speculation, and you provide 'evidence' from somebody else's dream to support it. This whole conversation must be in the running to win the "Most Totally Pointless Conversation Ever" title.


I'm not surprised the word 'Gullible' is to be removed from the Dictionary.

Who said it was a dream? Interested Bob, I told you that Paul Twitchell was driving his car at great speed, lost control, and left his body. Many people have found themselves looking down on a scene, then found themselves back in their body again. You just refuse to believe it.

He was driving a metal car in a physical body, what's the matter with you? I'm trying to explain a true happening. And you believe it to be a dream. You can be sure that it certainly wasn't a dream to Paul Twitchell.

What you and others consider to be a dream, is actually Soul having an out of the body experience. He was able to leave his body and was looking down on the scene and in doing so, saw the car being straightened up, thus preventing a crash.

As you and others apparently are not aware of what goes on in other dimensions, you will always be sceptical, there is nothing I can do about that. There are different ways of communication that takes place in ECKANKAR.

You can choose to laugh if you so wish, but really the laugh is on those who try to ridicule everything just because they don't have any real understanding of what
can happen in ECKANKAR.

[Deleted]

Scottish Lassie, no one (that I am aware of) is trying to change your beliefs, and your are correct that people who have never had such an experience will have a difficult time believing it (more likely impossible). So you can expect all sorts of reactions to your words short of belief.

Making some descriptive statement followed by something like, “you just refuse to believe it” is, from the point of view of those living in the world of senses, comments of someone living in a world of make believe and refusing to accept reality.

There are explanations from the temporal world for all that you have described relative to the world you believe in. I suspect that you reject that position but whether you do or don't reject it makes no difference. That you refuse to believe in the temporal world is your heavy load and not a challenge of those who live (successfully) in this temporal world.

[interestedbob]

Who said it was a dream? Interested Bob, I told you that Paul Twitchell was driving his car at great speed, lost control, and left his body. Many people have found themselves looking down on a scene, then found themselves back in their body again. You just refuse to believe it.

He was driving a metal car in a physical body, what's the matter with you? I'm trying to explain a true happening. And you believe it to be a dream. You can be sure that it certainly wasn't a dream to Paul Twitchell.

What you and others consider to be a dream, is actually Soul having an out of the body experience. He was able to leave his body and was looking down on the scene and in doing so, saw the car being straightened up, thus preventing a crash.

As you and others apparently are not aware of what goes on in other dimensions, you will always be sceptical, there is nothing I can do about that. There are different ways of communication that takes place in ECKANKAR.

You can choose to laugh if you so wish, but really the laugh is on those who try to ridicule everything just because they don't have any real understanding of what
can happen in ECKANKAR.

You call it an out of body experience, a phenomenon for which there is no concrete evidence, Scottish Lassie. I call it a dream, a phenomenon which can at least be shown to exist in some form, by brain scan changes.

Many people CLAIM to have found themselves looking down on a scene, then found themselves back in their body again. As far as I'm aware, no-one has yet proved it.

Once again, we have only Paul Twitchell's report of what he claimed to have seen. That may be evidence of a kind, but it's certainly far from being proof of anything.

In the specific case we're discussing, a temporary blackout could in fact be a reasonably logical explanation for the car righting itself. A car being driven at high speed, with the driver attempting too tight a turn, is bound to begin to turn over, but easing the steering wheel to allow a shallower rate of turn is likely to allow the car to stabilise itself. Releasing the steering wheel temporarily, as might happen in a brief blackout, perhaps caused by fear or panic, is one way that could happen, and could explain both the car righting itself, and the dream image of an out of body experience. I'm not saying that's the only possible explanation, but it's infinitely more likely than a giant arm appearing out of the sky and being seen by a disembodied soul, while it's having an out of body experience.

I don't "try to ridicule everything just because I don't have any real understanding of what can happen in ECKANKAR". Quite honestly I'm fed up hearing about ECKANKAR, and having done quite a lot of research on the subject, I think I already have quite enough understanding of it to form my own opinion about it, which I will keep to myself.

I simply don't automatically believe everything I'm told about anything, not just ECKANKAR, especially if what I'm being told appears to be totally illogical, impossible, or in some cases just plain silly.

[Big Lin]

I think there are a lot of things that though they're strange are possible.

Certainly I've had a lot of strange experiences in my life and in particularly the hauntings which were also witnessed by other people and which continued even after we'd left the house.

But ultimately it's one thing to say I know what I experienced and so do those who experienced it with me and others who've had the same experiences since.

But it's basically a case where no amount of evidence will convince a sceptic any more than any lack of evidence will convince a believer.

So what it is, Chris, is not that you believe what you believe but that you confuse your beliefs with knowledge.

It's just not the same thing at all.

[Scottish Lassie]

Aug 14, 2015 16:08:13 GMT @menantol said:

Aug 14, 2015 15:16:14 GMT Scottish Lassie said:

Not in my book Men an tol, It seems very distrustful to me, with all your suggestions as to what happened. Don't you think if he was ill that he wouldn't have been hospitalised?

And don't you think that the medical staff would have
investigated as to the reason for his illness and ofcourse have discovered that he had been poisoned. You seem to go out of your way to try and sabotage anything that I have to say?

That is really twisting things Scottish Lassie.

You are the one who brought up the assertion that your leader, your group, is having their freedom of speech taken away from them. To me that is serious and I was wondering where that might be going on and who was doing it. I wasn't questioning the veracity of your assertion.

Then you replied with, describing this event where your leader was speaking and got ill and died due to that poisoning. More over you are the one who asserted that his illness came from a drink someone (unnamed) gave him and then asserted that this drink was poisoned. These are very serious allegations.

If he went to a hospital, and if they pumped his stomach, and if they analyzed the contents, and if the contents proved to be poison, then the police would have been called by the hospital and there were be official reports. I have yet to find any official records describing anything that you have described.

From “Dialogue in the Age of Criticism”, Chap. 4, by Doug Marman: “ . . . How could Paul have been poisoned to death in Spain or Czechoslovakia, and no one be quite sure? I’ve never heard that one before. Yes, it is true that not a lot has been said about Paul's trip to Spain where he was poisoned, still the fact remains that he returned alive and lived for more than a year after this until his passing in Cincinnati on September 17, 1971. So, obviously, Paul wasn't poisoned to death. . . . “ Paul Twitchell died September 17, 1971, of a heart attack in Cincinnati, Ohio while attending an Eckankar seminar.

Now, I could go into more as it is easy to find things about his death, but that is not and never has been my point, rather, I wanted to see defined the acts of taking away freedom of speech and who was doing it. As of yet there is no real reply to that question. My offering of possible causes of his poisoning were merely to emphasize that it is open and undefined. In fact, that since there was apparently a year between the alleged poisoning event and his death a reasonable assumption (emphasize it is only an assumption) that his death is not connected to the poisoning.

Your comment (question), referring to me, “ . . . You seem to go out of your way to try and sabotage anything that I have to say? . . . “ is far removed from reality. Our challenge in communication is that I deal in provable realities of evidence that are reachable by our senses and you deal in misty unreachable beliefs only understandable by those (apparently such as yourself) who have the special power to see (feel) them. When asked to provide empirical evidence you generally retreat into some mythical position that only the initiated can really understand or become defense, but straight foreword answers are missing. Here with this asserted poisoning event that barrier could be crossed as actual evidence should be available, but even here you respond with innuendo and assumptions and then retreat into a defensive posture.

Personally I don't care what position you take, but as I have stated, I do have an interest when freedoms are attacked and in this case freedom of speech. As near as I can tell, neither your leaders nor the organization have suffered any reduction of freedom and certainly no reduction in speech. 

Hi Men an tol, In talking about freedom of speech I was talking about today's obsession with that need due to the furore over what happened in France to do with the Prophet of Islam and the cartoonists.

I then said that freedom of speech was not evident when Paul Twitchell was in Spain giving talks on.Soul travel etc. He WAS poisoned. His retinue, members of ECKANKAR, who were with him would know exactly what happened and they say that he was poisoned.

I choose to believe what they have to say. He was a healthy man so there was nothing that could have harmed him. but the drink. When the body is fighting off the effects of poison, ofcourse the heart is affected.

[blc]

Aug 14, 2015 16:41:29 GMT interestedbob said:

Hi Interested Bob, I think I have remembered some more about the incident, that will
change things somewhat. The people that saw the incident, may not have seen an arm descend out of the heavens at all.

I think what really happened, when Paul Twitchell lost control of the car and it was in the process of turning over, he had an out of the body experience and soul was above the car, that is when he saw a huge arm reach down and grab the car turning it upright and therefore preventing an accident, then he was back in his body again.

This can happen by itself, as has happened to me. Or the person can instigate it themselves if they have the know
how. No doubt it will
still sound unbelievable, but it did happen, but it will explain why perhaps there were no reports about the incident to be found.

So nobody actually saw the huge arm come out of the sky and stop the car from crashing, after all, Scottish Lassie? Paul Twitchell is the only person who saw it at all, and he saw it in a dream.

This thread is about an article based on pure speculation, and you provide 'evidence' from somebody else's dream to support it. This whole conversation must be in the running to win the "Most Totally Pointless Conversation Ever" title.


I'm not surprised the word 'Gullible' is to be removed from the Dictionary.

Looks like cults and brainwashing are alive and well.

Looks like cults and brainwashing are alive and well.

[Scottish Lassie]

Aug 14, 2015 20:31:11 GMT interestedbob said:

Who said it was a dream? Interested Bob, I told you that Paul Twitchell was driving his car at great speed, lost control, and left his body. Many people have found themselves looking down on a scene, then found themselves back in their body again. You just refuse to believe it.

He was driving a metal car in a physical body, what's the matter with you? I'm trying to explain a true happening. And you believe it to be a dream. You can be sure that it certainly wasn't a dream to Paul Twitchell.

What you and others consider to be a dream, is actually Soul having an out of the body experience. He was able to leave his body and was looking down on the scene and in doing so, saw the car being straightened up, thus preventing a
crash.

As you and others apparently are not aware of what goes on in other dimensions, you will always be sceptical, there is nothing I can do about that. There are different ways of communication that takes place in ECKANKAR.

You can choose to laugh if you so wish, but really the laugh is on those who try to ridicule everything just because they don't have any real understanding of what
can happen in ECKANKAR.

You call it an out of body experience, a phenomenon for which there is no concrete evidence, Scottish Lassie. I call it a dream, a phenomenon which can at least be shown to exist in some form, by brain scan changes.

Many people CLAIM to have found themselves looking down on a scene, then found themselves back in their body again. As far as I'm aware, no-one has yet proved it.

Once again, we have only Paul Twitchell's report of what he claimed to have seen. That may be evidence of a kind, but it's certainly far from being proof of anything.

In the specific case we're discussing, a temporary blackout could in fact be a reasonably logical explanation for the car righting itself. A car being driven at high speed, with the driver attempting too tight a turn, is bound to begin to turn over, but easing the steering wheel to allow a shallower rate of turn is likely to allow the car to stabilise itself. Releasing the steering wheel temporarily, as might happen in a brief blackout, perhaps caused by fear or panic, is one way that could happen, and could explain both the car righting itself, and the dream image of an out of body experience. I'm not saying that's the only possible explanation, but it's infinitely more likely than a giant arm appearing out of the sky and being seen by a disembodied soul, while it's having an out of body experience.

I don't "try to ridicule everything just because I don't have any real understanding of what can happen in ECKANKAR". Quite honestly I'm fed up hearing about ECKANKAR, and having done quite a lot of research on the subject, I think I already have quite enough understanding of it to form my own opinion about it, which I will keep to myself.

I simply don't automatically believe everything I'm told about anything, not just ECKANKAR, especially if what I'm being told appears to be totally illogical, impossible, or in some cases just plain silly.

I'm a bit fed up as well, of trying to explain something that you are not ready for, so I guess we will leave it at that.

[Scottish Lassie]

Aug 14, 2015 20:36:29 GMT Big Lin said:

I think there are a lot of things that though they're strange are possible.

Certainly I've had a lot of strange experiences in my life and in particularly the hauntings which were also witnessed by other people and which continued even after we'd left the house.

But ultimately it's one thing to say I know what I experienced and so do those who experienced it with me and others who've had the same experiences since.

But it's basically a case where no amount of evidence will convince a sceptic any more than any lack of evidence will convince a believer.

So what it is, Chris, is not that you believe what you believe but that you confuse your beliefs with knowledge.

It's just not the same thing at all.

Hi BigLin, a person has evidently got to be an ECKist in order to understand the difference between knowledge and spiritual enlightenment. It is the Holy Spirit that provides that enlightenment which has nothing to do with worldly knowledge.

It is even mentioned in the Christian Bible that Spirit will always strive with the things of this physical dimension, so I guess that's the end of that topic.

[Scottish Lassie]

Aug 14, 2015 18:34:55 GMT @menantol said:

Scottish Lassie, no one (that I am aware of) is trying to change your beliefs, and your are correct that people who have never had such an experience will have a difficult time believing it (more likely impossible). So you can expect all sorts of reactions to your words short of belief.

Making some descriptive statement followed by something like, “you just refuse to believe it” is, from the point of view of those living in the world of senses, comments of someone living in a world of make believe and refusing to accept reality.

There are explanations from the temporal world for all that you have described relative to the world you believe in. I suspect that you reject that position but whether you do or don't reject it makes no difference. That you refuse to believe in the temporal world is your
heavy load and not a challenge of those who live (successfully) in this temporal world.

Hi Men an tol, I am not living in a world of make believe, but I am living in the physical world and the spirit world, as I have experiences in both. Sorry you can't enjoy both too, never mind, it might happen one day, you never know?

[Deleted]

Aug 14, 2015 22:05:04 GMT Scottish Lassie said:

Aug 14, 2015 18:34:55 GMT @menantol said:

Scottish Lassie, no one (that I am aware of) is trying to change your beliefs, and your are correct that people who have never had such an experience will have a difficult time believing it (more likely impossible). So you can expect all sorts of reactions to your words short of belief.

Making some descriptive statement followed by something like, “you just refuse to believe it” is, from the point of view of those living in the world of senses, comments of someone living in a world of make believe and refusing to accept reality.

There are explanations from the temporal world for all that you have described relative to the world you believe in. I suspect that you reject that position but whether you do or don't reject it makes no difference. That you refuse to believe in the temporal world is your
heavy load and not a challenge of those who live (successfully) in this temporal world.

Hi Men an tol, I am not living in a world of make believe, but I am living in the physical world and the spirit world, as I have experiences in both. Sorry you can't enjoy both too, never mind, it might happen one day, you never know?

it's the same for any religion or belief , they are all pretty unbelievable unless you happen to believe it . no proof exists for any of them.

[Scottish Lassie]

Aug 15, 2015 10:25:18 GMT Gibby said:

Aug 14, 2015 22:05:04 GMT Scottish Lassie said:

Hi Men an tol, I am not living in a world of make believe, but I am living in the physical world and the spirit world, as I have experiences in both. Sorry you can't enjoy both too, never mind, it might happen one day, you never know?

it's the same for any religion or belief , they are all pretty unbelievable unless you happen to believe it . no proof exists for any of them.

Hi Gibby, It is not a case of ' unless you happen to believe it,' but rather ' unless you happen to experience it.' I along with you and others, have experiences in this physical plane, but not all of us have experiences in the spiritual planes and this is the problem.

If everyone also had experiences in the spiritual dimensions, then there would be no disbelief of any kind. I don't know why some people are allowed to see into and visit other dimensions, I only know that it happens.

All I can say is: that a person has earned whatever experience they are having and have had, and it has to do with Karma. As a person evolves spiritually they are given more advanced experiences which allows them to sense more of the different aspects of Creation.

Nobody is trying to change anyone's belief, we are all just giving our viewpoints on what we have come to understand and therefore believe, because of the experiences that we have had.

[Big Lin]

Aug 16, 2015 13:50:57 GMT Scottish Lassie said:

Aug 15, 2015 10:25:18 GMT Gibby said:

it's the same for any religion or belief , they are all pretty unbelievable unless you happen to believe it . no proof exists for any of them.

Hi Gibby, It is not a case of ' unless you happen to believe it,' but rather ' unless you happen to experience it.' I along with you and others, have experiences in this physical plane, but not all of us have experiences in the spiritual planes and this is the problem.

If everyone also had experiences in the spiritual dimensions, then there would be no disbelief of any kind. I don't know why some people are allowed to see into and visit other dimensions, I only know that it happens.

All I can say is: that a person has earned whatever experience they are having and have had, and it has to do with Karma. As a person evolves spiritually they are given more advanced experiences which allows them to sense more of the different aspects of Creation.

Nobody is trying to change anyone's belief, we are all just giving our viewpoints on what we have come to understand and therefore believe, because of the experiences that we have had.

I don't think that's the only problem, Chris. It's not just that not everyone has had spiritual experiences and therefore it's not reasonable to expect them to accept your claims simply on your say-so.

It's also the fact that every spiritual experience is different and that different people have different types of spiritual experience.

A psychoanalyist for example will find that their patients tend to have the type of dreams associated with the particular school of psychoanalysis to which they belong - so Freudian patients have Freudian dreams, Jungian ones have Jungian dreams, Adlerian ones Adlerian dreams and so on.

Now I've had spiritual experiences that have led me to believe that the Church of England is the nearest thing to the true Christian religion that exists at present.

You've had spiritual experiences that have convinced you it's Eckanckar.

Others have had ones that convince them it's Islam, Catholicism, Mormonism, Hinduism, Buddhism and so on.

Now the problem is that when these spiritual experiences lead people to such different conclusions about the world it's obvious that they can't be used as some kind of barometer of truth or some kind of basis on which to expect others to share your beliefs.

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2015 10:25:18 GMT Gibby said:

Aug 14, 2015 22:05:04 GMT Scottish Lassie said:

Hi Men an tol, I am not living in a world of make believe, but I am living in the physical world and the spirit world, as I have experiences in both. Sorry you can't enjoy both too, never mind, it might happen one day, you never know?

it's the same for any religion or belief , they are all pretty unbelievable unless you happen to believe it . no proof exists for any of them.

Gibby, I believe that you have the right of it. There are, and have been,uncountable religious beliefs and those who have accepted those beliefs are firmly convinced of the reality of those beliefs, and so they should be.

At the same time, in our societies where we are bumping into each other all of the time we must have someway to talk with each other, to address problems, to find solutions. All of the life challenges, small and large, must be definable in ways where we can exchange ideas. To do something as simple as constructing a roadway through a community, to bring water to the residents of the community and to take away the waste, are understood and solved because we can accept the reality (or lack thereof) of others in the community. Faith and belief can be very strongly held as individuals but they cannot contribute to solving these challenges.

Even so, that doesn't mean that all that surrounds beliefs don't contribute to practical life. Some religious organizational structures have contributed significant concepts of how people can live together in ethical and moral relationships without beating each other in the head. Of course so have non-religious thought contributed to the same area. However, while faith and belief can be positive influences on the life of an individual, they do not contribute to defining and solving the day to day challenges of life.

Of course none of this is new. Religious movements such as Scientology are strongly focused on personal faith and belief but far less focused on the practical world of life. More over, Scientology (as an example) borrow heavily from previous works of others such as Gnosticism and the Valentinians and both of these borrowed significantly from the works of Plato.

Yes, I believe that you have the right of it Gibby.

[Scottish Lassie]

Aug 16, 2015 15:50:45 GMT Big Lin said:

Aug 16, 2015 13:50:57 GMT Scottish Lassie said:

Hi Gibby, It is not a case of ' unless you happen to believe it,' but rather ' unless you happen to experience it.' I along with you and others, have experiences in this physical plane, but not all of us have experiences in the spiritual planes and this is the problem.

If everyone also had experiences in the spiritual dimensions, then there would be no disbelief of any kind. I don't know why some people are allowed to see into and visit other dimensions, I only know that it happens.

All I can say is: that a person has earned whatever experience they are having and have had, and it has to do with Karma. As a person evolves spiritually they
are given more advanced experiences which allows them to sense more of the different aspects of Creation.

Nobody is trying to change anyone's belief, we are all just giving our viewpoints on what we have come to understand and therefore believe, because of the experiences that we have had.

I don't think that's the only problem, Chris. It's not just that not everyone has had spiritual experiences and therefore it's not reasonable to expect them to accept your claims simply on your say-so.

It's also the fact that every spiritual experience is different and that different people have different types of spiritual experience.

A psychoanalyist for example will find that their patients tend to have the type of dreams associated with the particular school of psychoanalysis to which they belong - so Freudian patients have Freudian dreams, Jungian ones have Jungian dreams, Adlerian ones Adlerian dreams and so on.

Now I've had spiritual experiences that have led me to believe that the Church of England is the nearest thing to the true Christian religion that exists at present.

You've had spiritual experiences that have convinced you it's Eckanckar.

Others have had ones that convince them it's Islam, Catholicism, Mormonism, Hinduism, Buddhism and so on.

Now the problem is that when these spiritual experiences lead people to such different conclusions about the world it's obvious that they can't be used as some kind of barometer of truth or some kind of basis on which to expect others to share your beliefs.

Hi BigLin, This is where a mistake is being made, all I am doing is expressing my viewpont on the topic that we are discussing. I am having certain spiritual experiences that have been explained by the Religion Of Light and Sound known as ECKANKAR.

With quite a few Religions, they believe by Faith not because they themselves have had spiritual experiences. As far as I know, ECKANKAR is the only Religion that explains what these experiences are all about, and they explain it in a logical, rational manner. And it all makes sense to me.

Try asking any Religious Minister and usually you get the same answer, " Have faith my child"" the truth is that they don't know, and will often just say that it is the works of Satan.

We in ECKANKAR, believe that everyone is in the situation that they have earned because they themselves have made the choices that has created it. I'm not responsible for what anyone else thinks or believes and vice versa. I am only relating the truth of my experiences. Whether anyone believes it to be the truth or not, is up to them, it is not my concern.

[Scottish Lassie]

Aug 16, 2015 15:57:15 GMT @menantol said:

Aug 15, 2015 10:25:18 GMT Gibby said:

it's the same for any religion or belief , they are all pretty unbelievable unless you happen to believe it . no proof exists for any of them.

Gibby, I believe that you have the right of it. There are, and have been,uncountable religious beliefs and those who have accepted those beliefs are firmly convinced of the reality of those beliefs, and so they should be.

At the same time, in our societies where we are bumping into each other all of the time we must have someway to talk with each other, to address problems, to find solutions. All of the life challenges, small and large, must be definable in ways where we can
exchange ideas. To do something as simple as
constructing a roadway through a community, to bring water to the residents of the community and to take away the waste, are understood and solved because we can accept the reality (or lack thereof) of others in the community. Faith and belief can be very strongly held as individuals but they cannot contribute to solving these challenges.

Even so, that doesn't mean that all that surrounds beliefs don't contribute to practical life. Some religious organizational structures have contributed significant concepts of how people can live together in ethical and moral relationships without beating each other in the head. Of course so have non-religious thought contributed to the same area. However, while faith and belief can be positive influences on the life of an individual, they do not contribute to defining and solving the day to day challenges of life.

Of course none of this is new. Religious movements such as Scientology are strongly focused on personal faith and belief but far less focused on the practical world of life. More over, Scientology (as an example) borrow heavily from previous works of others such as Gnosticism and the Valentinians and both of these borrowed significantly from the works of Plato.

Yes, I believe that you have the right of it Gibby.

I beg to differ Men an tol, we all live in this physical world and so attend to all that is physically required of us, so in no way are people who are spiritually inclined, focussing inordinately on spiritual matters. They go hand in hand!!!

It is the Atheists who give 100% of their thoughts and time to physical matters, because they don't believe that there is a spiritual reality. We happen to believe and know that it does exist and therefore deserves our attention as well.

[Deleted]

Aug 17, 2015 7:28:29 GMT Scottish Lassie said:

Aug 16, 2015 15:57:15 GMT @menantol said:

Gibby, I believe that you have the right of it. There are, and have been,uncountable religious beliefs and those who have accepted those beliefs are firmly convinced of the reality of those beliefs, and so they should be.

At the same time, in our societies where we are bumping into each other all of the time we must have someway to talk with each other, to address problems, to find solutions. All of the life challenges, small and large, must be definable in ways where we can
exchange ideas. To do something as simple as
constructing a roadway through a community, to bring water to the residents of the community and to take away the waste, are understood and solved because we can accept the reality (or lack thereof) of others in the community. Faith and belief can be very strongly held as individuals but they cannot contribute to solving these challenges.

Even so, that doesn't mean that all that surrounds beliefs don't contribute to practical life. Some religious organizational structures have contributed significant concepts of how people can live together in ethical and moral relationships without beating each other in the head. Of course so have non-religious thought contributed to the same area. However, while faith and belief can be positive influences on the life of an individual, they do not contribute to defining and solving the day to day challenges of life.

Of course none of this is new. Religious movements such as Scientology are strongly focused on personal faith and belief but far less focused on the practical world of life. More over, Scientology (as an example) borrow heavily from previous works of others such as Gnosticism and the Valentinians and both of these borrowed significantly from the works of Plato.

Yes, I believe that you have the right of it Gibby.

I beg to differ Men an tol, we all live in this physical world and so attend to all that is physically required of us, so in no way are people who are spiritually inclined, focussing inordinately on spiritual matters. They go hand in hand!!!

It is the Atheists who give 100% of their thoughts and time to physical matters, because they don't believe that there is a spiritual reality. We happen to believe and know that it does exist and therefore deserves our attention as well.

Scottish Lassie, you have (again) misconstrued what I stated and have gone to a different area. As I have in the past, I support your (as well as others) personal beliefs in the non-temporal concepts. In fact I think that it is most likely for you (and others) to do otherwise would at least make your lives more difficult. However, your assertion, “ . . . It is the Atheists who give 100% of their thoughts and time to physical matters, because they don't believe that there is a spiritual reality. . . . “ demonstrates a real misunderstanding of the world outside of your concepts of a 'spiritual world.

First, as I have explained to you in the past, Atheists are not the same, but yes, in a general sense Atheists are involved in trying to understand the world, the people in it and their relations to one another. As part of that world, there are obviously people who are committed to their spiritual beliefs and that affects their relationships to others and therefore such is of interest to Atheists.

Clearly, some committed to the spiritual world make assertions that they claim are involved in and caused by things not of the temporal world. Atheists are interested in such things and for those assertions have found other (from the temporal world) causes and incentives for the happenings and/or interpretations demonstrating no singular need for the spiritual world. It isn't that Atheists exclude these alleged spiritual world events but rather that they have temporal world reasons for the beliefs in them. That is unacceptable to those committed to their beliefs in that spiritual world so they simply reject that Atheist perspective.

Then too, these attributes of those with beliefs in the spiritual world are not new. The leaders involved and the names and terminologies change but by and large the concepts remain the same ot at least similar. As I stated in my posting, “ . . . More over, Scientology (as an example) borrow heavily from previous works of others such as Gnosticism and the Valentinians and both of these borrowed significantly from the works of Plato. . . . “ This is true and provable. More over, these older forerunners of these belief systems developed well thought out ethical and moral concepts which are applicable to the relationships of people. To Atheists these are well worth the study.