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Post by trubble on Jan 23, 2009 0:21:35 GMT
The term "Turn The Other Cheek" was written in biblical days to mean something quiet different than today's misconception. To turn the other cheek meant do not stand and be backhanded- as a belittling and dismissive, and insulting gesture. Turn yourself up front in direct eye-to-eye to with those who will strike out at you so they are forced to hit open-handed (as in a slap), or fist if they have the guts. Be on equal footing, and do not allow another to put you down, to demean you. Stand up AGAINST them, defend yourself, do NOT cower and "turn" to allow them a free blow. Where does that information come from? I have always been taught it meant do not react in violence. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_the_other_cheek
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Post by cammie on Jan 23, 2009 0:33:38 GMT
All deliberate murderers are PRO death penalty. They ALL stand as judge, jury and executioner of their innocent victims. Therefore, they, as PRO DP advocates should be the first ones to want the DP for themselves. ...But wait a sec... they are TOO COWARDLY to stand up for their OWN convictions. _________________________ The crybaby murderers lie through their teeth on the stand to try and save their own hides. They whine, beg and plead for compassion they themselves NEVER showed toward their victims. Every time they open their vile mouths, they sink lower into the cesspool stench of hell. And the bible is full of scripture dolling out the DP for murderers. Cast them into the lake of fire, indeed. Perfectly Fitting.
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Post by trubble on Jan 23, 2009 0:33:59 GMT
That makes for interesting reading, reb. I read the first page and one letter. In the letter, Jeff writes: 'makes it safer for the guards'...as if that's a bad thing... I suppose once you get on Death Row you make that your whole society and do the same thing any of us would do under a dictatorship. I see he didn't keep any of your letters because he wouldn't have the space to keep all the letters written to him. Wow. Is this a major hobby for that many people? I can see why you might have started to write to him, I can imagine why you might have told him he deserved to die, but why do people write to people on Death Row mostly? Anyone know? Do you know, reb? As Riot says, it's a bit of a creepy hobby just to pick up randomly. Why not write to supermodel or celebrity? I see your link into it, so does everyone who writes to them have a personal link with prison that leads them to such penpal-ism? I see posts about someone who married someone...on Death Row? Why did they do that? Are they here? This is fascinating to me. Dear trubble, 1 reason people keep in contact with murderers on death row is because they're related to them. I may be stating the obvious, but people NEED to know about this. At LEAST 22% of murders in the US are inter-family, ie., family members murdering another family member. I'm an inter-family MVS (MVS stands for "murder victim survivor", who are the surviving family/friends of murder victims) and some of my family members (including me) chose to stay in touch with our loved 1 who murdered. To write to family makes sense to me. To be interested in prisoners, related or not, if you have experienced the crime also makes sense. Thanks for explaining it to me.
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Post by trubble on Jan 23, 2009 0:36:48 GMT
Many people become involved in penpalling prisoners because they are family or friends of the person concerned. I became involved in prison visiting because of two friends of mine who were sent to prison and suffered so badly they tried to kill themselves. I don't condemn penpalling death row inmates as such though I find it strange that some people seem to seek out the worst possible examples of humanity to spread their compassion towards. As Pumpkinette rightly says, a very high proportion of them are because of family connections. Do you think that there's also an aspect of voyeurism and danger? Perhaps some people just seek some drama in their lives. ..I mean among people other than those with a personal involvement!
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Post by trubble on Jan 23, 2009 0:40:56 GMT
How will future generations look back at execution and squirm in embarrasment??? The embarrasing point would fall to the murderer, and none else. But since a dark-souled murderer has no conscious nor remorse, that is a wasted expectation. _______________ Do unto others. Have you ever done one of those tourist type tours around old prisons, castles, dungeons etc? You see the old methods used to extract confessions 300 years ago, or the conditions of prisoners 200 years ago, or the short trial systems with no appeals. They do not bring shame on the convicts in the least, because sadly crime is a human trait, it's something we all know happens across the centuries, the only thing that is shocking on those tours is the action taken by the authorities at the time and what was acceptable.
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Post by trubble on Jan 23, 2009 0:50:05 GMT
But to write to a POS DR murderer and tell them they DESERVE to die is simply expressing the truth. Go for it Reb!!! ___________________ ......... The American DP is flawed bc the murderer gets to live on DR 20 years after being found guilty, clog the system with BS appeals, and is a burden to the taxpayer. Plus, the disgusting murderers should be executed in the same manner they killed their victims. ........ On the first point, writing to tell someone on the Death Row that they deserve to die, this is a somewhat outrageous suggestion that it is our right or duty or place to do so. Obviously I have compassion for those who feel impelled to do so when they have lost someone to the murderer. Then, I think, there are different rules. Maybe it is needed for the family. And obviously if you have an on-going conversation with a prisoner who is questioning whether he deserves to die, you have the right to voice your opinion. Whether it is fair or not to do so is debatable. It's a bit like kicking a dog when he's down and so who could blame the murderer for not writing back. But we have justice systems to deal appropriately with these people. Implicit in those systems is the removal of any need or right to take one's own actions against the murderer. The state acts on our behalf and with our voice. It is enough that the state has said he should die. We don't need to add our tuppence-worth. On your second point, what you are calling a flaw is what others are calling the failsafe system that ensures no innocent man is murdered in your name. Without this 'flaw' the Death Penalty could never exist in a civilised country.
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Post by cammie on Jan 23, 2009 0:53:13 GMT
Trubble, the info on "Turn the Other Cheek" was a study done by biblical scholars. To be passive is a modern day explanation. The bible is full of modern day misconceptions. Example: "Virgin birth" meant unmarried birth in biblical days. Also, "The meek will inherit the earth". since the more spiritual one becomes, the higher they elevate until they ascend to heaven for eternal life with God. If the meek are those who will not stand up against evil, they therefore will not elevate, will not ascend. They will be stuck right here on ground level (hell) to live among the evil they cowardly tolerate, lifetime after lifetime. They inherit THE EARTH, they do not inherit heaven. ______________ God created angels as his official warriors against evil, they certainly are not passsive. So, shall we emulate angels or emulate cowards?
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Post by trubble on Jan 23, 2009 1:02:08 GMT
Well now, this is why religion drives me nuts. Interpretation. Picking and choosing. Reinterpreting. I haven't a clue which version is right but either someone is remodelling the bible to suit themselves or people have been living to the wrong rules for 2000 years.
What a palava!
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Post by cammie on Jan 23, 2009 1:06:30 GMT
In America, no one found later to be "innocent" has been executed since the 70's. When there is no doubt as to guilt, it is a slap in the face of the murder victim and their loved ones to keep these murderers alive. The victims have no such option! And our justice system is horribly flawed, inept and crooked. Deliberate, premeditating murderers can get away with as little as 8-10 years. It is all in who you know in the court system, judges paid off, doing favors, or idiot jurors... just to mention a few.
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Post by trubble on Jan 23, 2009 1:12:55 GMT
But for the innocent man to have the chance to survive, the guilty must also be given the chance, you can see that there's no way of distinguishing the two?
If you have a man laden with DNA evidence, and witness evidence, and self-confession, even then, you must give due course of time to allow an alternate story to appear or to allow confirmation of guilt, confirmed via the testing and retesting of the trial's validitiy in the various appeals.
In Italy, about two years ago, prisoners on Death Row staged a protest demanding a swift execution. They found the experience of Death Row too harsh and cruel and wrote letters to the papers to plead that they were being subjected to inhuman treatment by being made to wait.
Then there's the film Monster and the true woman behind the fim, Aileen, who did everything she could to hasten her execution date. Some prisoners refuse to go down the appeal route at all. I guess Death Row isn't as cosy as all that.
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Post by cammie on Jan 23, 2009 1:14:18 GMT
Trubble, religion drives me nuts too. That is why I prefer spirituality. Religion is man's interpratation... imagine "going to hell" fo eating pork onn Friday or dancing or wearing makeup, etc. It's outright silly!
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Post by trubble on Jan 23, 2009 1:19:57 GMT
Everything is man's interpretation. As far as I'm concerned we can all interpret whatever way we like as long as the rest of us don't have to abide by someone else's version, that's cool.
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Post by cammie on Jan 23, 2009 1:23:25 GMT
20 years is much too long a time period to show the existance of DNA. In cases of clear guilt, executiton should be swift and sure. Yhe barbaric torture chambers of yesteryear ARE a disgrace, save only for the truly guilty that deserved every turn of the screw and pound of the nail.
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 23, 2009 12:28:04 GMT
The problem with using religion to justify your POV or actions is that anyone can do it. How many serial killers thought the voice in their head was God telling them what to do? I don't see much difference between them and the people who say their God says kill people. One is murder and the other is murder dressed up in sanitising language. Future generations will look back at the death penalty and squirm in embarassment. the intelligent ones won't
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 23, 2009 12:31:49 GMT
Jesus was compassionate to the thief on the cross and forgave him, even though he was still executed. You're talking about a condemned man and saying he doesn't deserve compassion. We're not talking about letting him go. What you said isn't really what I'd consider "Christian", Jumbo. "you should always be compassionate toward those who are worthy of your compassion. however, compassion is like pearls, and you don't cast it before swine, no disrespect to the poor pigs intended. they certainly don't deserve to be lowered to a murderer's level" and "maybe not, but it's comical as hell. anyway, the lad is talking about garbage for whom NO compassion should be shown" what is so difficult to understand about the simple fact that a murderer makes the conscious decision that he is not worthy of being deemed deserving of ANYTHING, particularly life? give me just one rational reason to show compassion to a murderer. the operative word is RATIONAL. emotional bullshyt such as "he's still a human being" is NOT rational.
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 23, 2009 12:35:37 GMT
Face it folks - the voices in your heads tell you to kill people, no matter how you twist, squirm, distort, re-translate and plain make it up as you go along. The Yorkshire Ripper displayed exactly the same certainty as you. He was, by the accounts of those that met him, a nice guy who just thought bad folks deserved to die. you REALLY lose with that insanity. there is NO similarity between a murderer and society
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Post by trubble on Jan 23, 2009 12:45:06 GMT
Jesus was compassionate to the thief on the cross and forgave him, even though he was still executed. You're talking about a condemned man and saying he doesn't deserve compassion. We're not talking about letting him go. What you said isn't really what I'd consider "Christian", Jumbo. "you should always be compassionate toward those who are worthy of your compassion. however, compassion is like pearls, and you don't cast it before swine, no disrespect to the poor pigs intended. they certainly don't deserve to be lowered to a murderer's level" and "maybe not, but it's comical as hell. anyway, the lad is talking about garbage for whom NO compassion should be shown" what is so difficult to understand about the simple fact that a murderer makes the conscious decision that he is not worthy of being deemed deserving of ANYTHING, particularly life? give me just one rational reason to show compassion to a murderer. the operative word is RATIONAL. emotional bullshyt such as "he's still a human being" is NOT rational. To be pedantic, to say 'he is a human being' is not only rational but factual and not an emotional statement. To say that we should extend equal compassion to every human being is emotional and perhaps a bit christian in outlook.
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Post by trubble on Jan 23, 2009 13:09:13 GMT
there is no doubt that a few innocent folks have been executed in the u.s, as well as britain. however, the irrefutable FACT is that, NO truly innocent person has been executed in the u.s. since 1976, and it is an absolute impossibility for such an event to occur. the simple fact that there have been dna exonerations from death row is conclusive proof that the innocent executed trip is bogus on its face In America, no one found later to be "innocent" has been executed since the 70's. What about these doubts? www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/1935
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Post by riotgrrl on Jan 23, 2009 17:22:15 GMT
_ God created angels as his official warriors against evil, they certainly are not passsive. So, shall we emulate angels or emulate cowards? Am I misunderstanding you, or are you genuinely stating as fact that angels both exist and are active in the material world?
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 23, 2009 18:48:35 GMT
there is no doubt that a few innocent folks have been executed in the u.s, as well as britain. however, the irrefutable FACT is that, NO truly innocent person has been executed in the u.s. since 1976, and it is an absolute impossibility for such an event to occur. the simple fact that there have been dna exonerations from death row is conclusive proof that the innocent executed trip is bogus on its face What about these doubts? www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/1935anytime that you try to bring in willingham, you totally destroy your credibility. there is not an iota of doubt that he murdered his kids. the imbecillic "innocent executed" lunatics try to claim that because it's been discovered that certain indicators which had once been thought to be present only in arson fires, can be present in normal fires. that doesn't even come close to creating any doubt of his guilt
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