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Post by fretslider on May 7, 2010 11:39:11 GMT
It feels like torture to the terrorist being interrogated. Yes it just feels that water in being forced into their lungs. Not like the real thing at all. Next you will be telling us that the Napalm your murderers dropped on on people was not really on fire nor were the children being raped by our vermin really being raped, itr was all pretend. This is why yiour troops act like sub human cowards in warzones. The come from a morally backward culture with no moral compass. Waterboarding has achieved outstanding results and it has saved lives. . Global warming has been re-branded as Climate Change. And it hasn't come close to being proven at all. |
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Post by mouse on May 7, 2010 11:46:42 GMT
Waterboarding might be harsh, but is probably a cakewalk compared what the enemy would do to our POWs. That does not make it right though, does it. Two wrongs don't make a right, does it? two wrongs certainly do not make a right... yet when dealing with the enemy...what military advantage does taking the high moral ground achieve...non sweetness and light does not win wars..nor does it help when the enemy sees you as weak and feeble and so far irak and afghanistan are being lost by civilians who think you win wars on moral high grounds.. look at any point of history..war is won by winners willing to do what ever it takes to win...not by walking on eggshells and feeding the enemy......hearts and minds come after the battle is won not before....military advantage is every thing |
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Post by mouse on May 7, 2010 11:49:17 GMT
These Al Qaida criminals are just cowardly murderers with no principles You could say that about American troops as well. There is no bravery about holding someone under water threating to drown them. Cowards. agreed...but that is the dilemma of war.....peronally i would prefer to shoot to kill rather than take prisoners to torure......and water boarding is torture.. but my thoughts on torture are clear in my prior post |
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Post by randomvioce on May 7, 2010 12:52:37 GMT
Yet when dealing with the enemy...what military advantage does taking the high moral ground achieve...non sweetness and light does not win wars..nor does it help when the enemy sees you as weak and feeble It is not sweetness and light though, it is about values. I have stated before that only the most wicked regimes in the World practice or justify torture. Remember the two airmen shot down in the gulf war? Remember the faces bloodied and bruised? Remember what that told you about Saddam's regieme? Not very nice, was it? You thought that Iraq was a pretty brutal Country. My moral compass means I can easily identify despicable acts. I don't need to know who is doing what to whom to know if the acts are right or wrong. The same posters who see water boarding as 'justified' would never condone acts against their own troops. For them, it is not the act that is right or wrong, it is who is doing the acts that make it right or wrong. I disaprove of torture, not because of what we do 'them'. I disaprove of torture because of what it says about our values and culture. People who torture and people who approve of torture are unlikely to be able to tell right from wrong. Last month a couple of brothers were found guilty of a brutal torture. If we are so appalled of two boys on a council estate, then what do we think about our troops doing it? Or MI5/6 etc or Ministers allowing it to happen here? What kind of society allows torture? Name the top five torturers in the World and I bet you hate them? I do. I will say this: I think for all its faultswe have the best culture in World. We have (or had) the highest standards (by and large), we are better than those types of Countries, we are better than the torturers, the Countries that hold trials in languages the accused don't understand. That imprison people without trial, that do not allow freedom of religion, or have strict dress codes or any of the other stupid things that backward regimes use. Imagine we were at war with a regime that routinely raped and killed 5 year olds? Would you allow our troops to do the same? Or would you expect them to uphold our values? for me the answer is easy. |
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Post by mouse on May 7, 2010 14:50:19 GMT
there is a considerable difference between routine sadistic torture ie throwing people into shredderder or even putting them in shredders slowley..rape with broken bottles..hanging relatives on hooks etc ..rape of children ...maimings etc by either a state run org or in allowing troops full run on sadism and beastiality and using technegues to get information from selected informants for specific instances i do not aprove of torture..i think there are better methods,,torture in my mind reduces those perpetuating the torture,,,and has NOTHING what ever to do with moral high ground and i could never go along with assisting or turning a blind eye HOWEVER to get fast information out when time is of the essence i can see why there are those who would indulge..even though your more likely to get what you want to hear rather than what you want to know......the fact is it some times works and to torture after some horrific event is a human reaction of revenge... the main problem is that the word torture has been as demeaned as the word racism..bigotry..xenophbia by people using it for actions which are far removed from torture...remeber the man who considered himself tortured in gitmo because he couldnt have photos of his family...a pillow and his prayer time was cut short when we misuse words to that extent we leave the door open to real abuse.... so forget moral high ground..forget hearts and minds...and behave in what is an aceptable human way which does not include being wimpish and overly sympathetic to our enemies..treat them harshly..harsh does not mean cruel..harsh does not mean torture...but the right ons will still weep and wail because enemies dont get their 5 veg aday and a sprung mattress |
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Post by mouse on May 7, 2010 14:55:48 GMT
play with music..noise....disorientate...constant and unremiting diet of gruel..sleep deprivation...reward system...crouching and standing techneques..non of those are torture..unpleasant but not torture...carry on with those methods and phsycological games..good guy bad guy..mind altering drugs ..we have reasonable methods available...but the right ons consider all the above to be torture......and the wet liberals are as much a danger as the enemy
the old british army use to know how to deal with muslims in particular..wrapp em up in pig skins...not a hair is harmed but when dealing with the uneducated it worked.....non PC...but not torture
any one who thinks water boarding is ok should volunteer for a dose
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 7, 2010 15:24:50 GMT
Waterboarding might be harsh, but is probably a cakewalk compared what the enemy would do to our POWs. That does not make it right though, does it. Two wrongs don't make a right, does it? |
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Post by randomvioce on May 7, 2010 15:40:26 GMT
If the waterboarding brings information that can stop a terrorist attack or free an Al Qaida kidnap victim it's the right and moral thing to do! These terrorists are criminals and not enemy soldiers! By the same token the, I take it you have no objection to Al Qaida using torture to extract information from any captured GIs? Let us suppose, they saw a leg of to force a soldier in order to gain technical information on an aspect of hardware that means they can protect themselves? |
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Post by Wonder Woman on May 7, 2010 16:22:10 GMT
IMO, if we support torture against our enemies, we've no right to balk at our own soldiers receiving the same treatment.
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Post by clemiethedog on May 7, 2010 17:34:58 GMT
In Iraq and Afghanistan many people were turned over to US authorities, often by privateers. These people were never charged with any crimes, and in fact the administration at the time (Bush) knew that many were innocent of any wrong doing. yet they were tortured.
I don 't approve of that conduct
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 8, 2010 4:50:18 GMT
If the waterboarding brings information that can stop a terrorist attack or free an Al Qaida kidnap victim it's the right and moral thing to do! These terrorists are criminals and not enemy soldiers! By the same token the, I take it you have no objection to Al Qaida using torture to extract information from any captured GIs? Let us suppose, they saw a leg of to force a soldier in order to gain technical information on an aspect of hardware that means they can protect themselves?
It seems like Al Qaida is far too bloodthirsty and primitive to be capable of upgrading their treatment of prisoners, which they murder after torture, to match the treatment that the US military gives it's prisoners! |
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Post by fretslider on May 8, 2010 9:28:14 GMT
By the same token the, I take it you have no objection to Al Qaida using torture to extract information from any captured GIs? Let us suppose, they saw a leg of to force a soldier in order to gain technical information on an aspect of hardware that means they can protect themselves?
It seems like Al Qaida is far too bloodthirsty and primitive to be capable of upgrading their treatment of prisoners, which they murder after torture, to match the treatment that the US military gives it's prisoners!Anna I'm afraid the US has dragged us all down to the level of the terrorist. |
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Post by mouse on May 8, 2010 10:40:42 GMT
In Iraq and Afghanistan many people were turned over to US authorities, often by privateers. These people were never charged with any crimes, and in fact the administration at the time (Bush) knew that many were innocent of any wrong doing. yet they were tortured. I don 't approve of that conduct absolutely clemmie and wonder woman....the whole thing is a disgrace...there are ways and then there are ways.... |
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Post by mouse on May 8, 2010 10:42:43 GMT
That does not make it right though, does it. Two wrongs don't make a right, does it? so far it seems not to have brought information of any great worth..the foot soldier on the ground rarely knows anything of importance and all the water boarding in the world hasnt caught osama.. you wont stop and ideology with torture....they should learn from history |
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Post by mouse on May 8, 2010 10:49:00 GMT
[/color][/size][/quote]are they really criminals  ? or are they fighting for what they believe i hold no brook for terrorists..be they irish..afghani or what ever i object to fighting those who allow the wets to make excuses for them the not wearing of uniform etc which allows ""oh its not all of them"""when the wearing of uniform gives an idea of exactly who and how many one is fighting but the fact remains....terrorists fight for a reason just the same way a uniformed soldier does.....the way they fight is different the methods they use are different......it doesnt make them criminals in the acepted sense of the word though,,even though they may use criminal methods...... |
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Post by randomvioce on May 8, 2010 11:00:23 GMT
It seems like Al Qaida is far too bloodthirsty and primitive to be capable of upgrading their treatment of prisoners,
Huh, and they say American don't do irony! Your Countrymen have carried out more bloodshed, outright murder, terrorism, torture and War crimes in the last fifty years to make Al Qaida look like boy scouts throwing water balloons at each other. |
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Post by mouse on May 8, 2010 14:54:55 GMT
not often i agree with random...but well said sir
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Post by Big Lin on May 8, 2010 23:59:09 GMT
Torture is torture and human rights are human rights and civilised behaviour is civilised behaviour.
We all know that in the heat of the moment or in a moment of anger most of us are capable of doing things that we wouldn't do in cold blood.
These people CHOSE to engage in brutal torture and there is NO excuse for what they did.
Let's briefly run through the objections to what they did.
1 Torture is the second most serious violation of a person's right not to be harmed after murder.
2 It has CONSISTENTLY been shown by intelligence services throughout the world that information that was got by using torture is LESS accurate, LESS valuable and LESS reliable than information got by using PROPER intelligence techniques.
3 The ONLY possible reasons for interrogators using torture are the following:
a) they're too lazy to be bothered to do the hard graft of digging out information
b) they're too stupid to know HOW to do that
c) they're psychopathic sadists who belong in prison or a secure mental unit themselves
d) they're conscious traitors who are DELIBERATELY using torture in order to turn the local people AGAINST their government and its allies
To use a Jumboism, that's simple reality!
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 9, 2010 7:03:02 GMT
All of us agree that mutulations, amputations and burnings constitute real torture!
We are not all in agreement as to whether or not waterboarding done with restraint and precautions is torture. Also isolation, sleep deprivation, insults or humilations, etc. are considered torture by some, but not others.
The simple threat of "torture" caused an arrested kidnapper in Germany to immediately reveal the whereabouts of his kidnapped victim! The vice chief of police in Frankfurt, Germany who made this bogus and succesful threat was prosecuted because modern Germany places the rights of criminals above the victims! www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jul2004/tort-j08.shtml
I place the rights of victims way ahead of criminals!
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Post by mouse on May 9, 2010 8:56:21 GMT
so do i...every time which is why i go along with
isolation, sleep deprivation, insults or humilations,
but i really dont think america has any moral or high ground on which to stand..and in my book water boarding would come under the heading of ...things not to do....
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Post by riotgrrl on May 9, 2010 13:45:48 GMT
All of us agree that mutulations, amputations and burnings constitute real torture!
We are not all in agreement as to whether or not waterboarding done with restraint and precautions is torture. Also isolation, sleep deprivation, insults or humilations, etc. are considered torture by some, but not others.
The simple threat of "torture" caused an arrested kidnapper in Germany to immediately reveal the whereabouts of his kidnapped victim! The vice chief of police in Frankfurt, Germany who made this bogus and succesful threat was prosecuted because modern Germany places the rights of criminals above the victims! www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jul2004/tort-j08.shtml
I place the rights of victims way ahead of criminals! It's important to make the distinction that the German suspect was NOT tortured. In the specifics of that situation, given the psychology of the prisoner involved, the threat of torture worked. That is not evidence that torture per se. would work. Putting the rights of victims ahead those of criminals is very meritworthy, but it's not a reason to start torturing prisoners. In fact, they're not even prisoners are they, they're still suspects mostly. Unconvicted suspects are not necessarily guilty, and the idea that merely being accused of a crime gives the state sufficient reason to torture you is appalling. It's not about the rights of the victim or the criminal, but the right of the INDIVIDUAL to not be tortured by the State. I don't understand why the pro-torture lobby want to give Governments the power to torture. |
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Post by Big Lin on May 9, 2010 19:14:55 GMT
The rights of victims is something that's a moot point, Anna.
Some of the people who WERE tortured subsequently turned out to be innocent.
They are victims too.
Sodium pentothal (the truth drug) is an effective method of information that has been around since at least the time of the Nazis.
It works and is painless.
Why use the inefficient and brutal methods of the torturer to extract information?
Anna, have you ever read 'Cautio Criminalis' by Father Spee? He was able to persuade a number of enlightened people within the Catholic Church that torture was NOT a successful method of getting information. From that time onwards its use began to decline sharply.
Even terrorists are human beings and have the same right to humane treatment as anyone else.
It's even more difficult when you're in a foreign country where you don't know the language, many of the locals have old scores to settle and so on.
Sodium pentothal works - torture doesn't.
Are we living in the 21st century or in the 15th?
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Post by mouse on May 9, 2010 22:28:15 GMT
Sodium pentothal (the truth drug) is an effective method of information that has been around since at least the time of the Nazis. It works and is painless. ? exactly......why use a jack hammer to crack a nut.... its the 21st century why use primitive methods |
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 10, 2010 5:07:46 GMT
Sodium pentothal (the truth drug) is an effective method of information that has been around since at least the time of the Nazis. It works and is painless. ? exactly......why use a jack hammer to crack a nut.... its the 21st century why use primitive methods
If Sodium Penthothal and similar drugs can quickly and effectively get information such as the whereabouts of a kidnap victim or an impending terrorist attack i'd be very supportive of this option.
Maybe in the future we'll have say a brain wave modifier that can get the needed information quickly and reliably, without any harm or duress to the information source. If we get this far then "enhanced interrogation" and torture which i see as two seperate matters will be obsolete. |
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 10, 2010 5:28:38 GMT
The rights of victims is something that's a moot point, Anna. Anna, have you ever read 'Cautio Criminalis' by Father Spee? He was able to persuade a number of enlightened people within the Catholic Church that torture was NOT a successful method of getting information. From that time onwards its use began to decline sharply. Even terrorists are human beings and have the same right to humane treatment as anyone else.
Please! Are you saying that if someone kidnapped one of your children you'd rather have these bureaucratic red tape nimcompoops deal with the kidnapper giving him ( it ) all his rights including having his defense attorney present, if he's agrees to be questioned? See my next post for more on that!Are we living in the 21st century or in the 15th? |
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? or are they fighting for what they believe
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yay! 
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