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Post by randomvioce on May 8, 2010 11:00:23 GMT
It seems like Al Qaida is far too bloodthirsty and primitive to be capable of upgrading their treatment of prisoners,
Huh, and they say American don't do irony! Your Countrymen have carried out more bloodshed, outright murder, terrorism, torture and War crimes in the last fifty years to make Al Qaida look like boy scouts throwing water balloons at each other.
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Post by mouse on May 8, 2010 14:54:55 GMT
not often i agree with random...but well said sir
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Post by Big Lin on May 8, 2010 23:59:09 GMT
Torture is torture and human rights are human rights and civilised behaviour is civilised behaviour.
We all know that in the heat of the moment or in a moment of anger most of us are capable of doing things that we wouldn't do in cold blood.
These people CHOSE to engage in brutal torture and there is NO excuse for what they did.
Let's briefly run through the objections to what they did.
1 Torture is the second most serious violation of a person's right not to be harmed after murder.
2 It has CONSISTENTLY been shown by intelligence services throughout the world that information that was got by using torture is LESS accurate, LESS valuable and LESS reliable than information got by using PROPER intelligence techniques.
3 The ONLY possible reasons for interrogators using torture are the following:
a) they're too lazy to be bothered to do the hard graft of digging out information
b) they're too stupid to know HOW to do that
c) they're psychopathic sadists who belong in prison or a secure mental unit themselves
d) they're conscious traitors who are DELIBERATELY using torture in order to turn the local people AGAINST their government and its allies
To use a Jumboism, that's simple reality!
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 9, 2010 7:03:02 GMT
All of us agree that mutulations, amputations and burnings constitute real torture!
We are not all in agreement as to whether or not waterboarding done with restraint and precautions is torture. Also isolation, sleep deprivation, insults or humilations, etc. are considered torture by some, but not others.
The simple threat of "torture" caused an arrested kidnapper in Germany to immediately reveal the whereabouts of his kidnapped victim! The vice chief of police in Frankfurt, Germany who made this bogus and succesful threat was prosecuted because modern Germany places the rights of criminals above the victims! www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jul2004/tort-j08.shtml
I place the rights of victims way ahead of criminals!
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Post by mouse on May 9, 2010 8:56:21 GMT
so do i...every time which is why i go along with isolation, sleep deprivation, insults or humilations, but i really dont think america has any moral or high ground on which to stand..and in my book water boarding would come under the heading of ...things not to do....
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Post by riotgrrl on May 9, 2010 13:45:48 GMT
All of us agree that mutulations, amputations and burnings constitute real torture!
We are not all in agreement as to whether or not waterboarding done with restraint and precautions is torture. Also isolation, sleep deprivation, insults or humilations, etc. are considered torture by some, but not others.
The simple threat of "torture" caused an arrested kidnapper in Germany to immediately reveal the whereabouts of his kidnapped victim! The vice chief of police in Frankfurt, Germany who made this bogus and succesful threat was prosecuted because modern Germany places the rights of criminals above the victims! www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jul2004/tort-j08.shtml
I place the rights of victims way ahead of criminals! It's important to make the distinction that the German suspect was NOT tortured. In the specifics of that situation, given the psychology of the prisoner involved, the threat of torture worked. That is not evidence that torture per se. would work. Putting the rights of victims ahead those of criminals is very meritworthy, but it's not a reason to start torturing prisoners. In fact, they're not even prisoners are they, they're still suspects mostly. Unconvicted suspects are not necessarily guilty, and the idea that merely being accused of a crime gives the state sufficient reason to torture you is appalling. It's not about the rights of the victim or the criminal, but the right of the INDIVIDUAL to not be tortured by the State. I don't understand why the pro-torture lobby want to give Governments the power to torture.
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Post by Big Lin on May 9, 2010 19:14:55 GMT
The rights of victims is something that's a moot point, Anna.
Some of the people who WERE tortured subsequently turned out to be innocent.
They are victims too.
Sodium pentothal (the truth drug) is an effective method of information that has been around since at least the time of the Nazis.
It works and is painless.
Why use the inefficient and brutal methods of the torturer to extract information?
Anna, have you ever read 'Cautio Criminalis' by Father Spee? He was able to persuade a number of enlightened people within the Catholic Church that torture was NOT a successful method of getting information. From that time onwards its use began to decline sharply.
Even terrorists are human beings and have the same right to humane treatment as anyone else.
It's even more difficult when you're in a foreign country where you don't know the language, many of the locals have old scores to settle and so on.
Sodium pentothal works - torture doesn't.
Are we living in the 21st century or in the 15th?
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Post by mouse on May 9, 2010 22:28:15 GMT
Sodium pentothal (the truth drug) is an effective method of information that has been around since at least the time of the Nazis. It works and is painless. ? exactly......why use a jack hammer to crack a nut.... its the 21st century why use primitive methods
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 10, 2010 5:07:46 GMT
Sodium pentothal (the truth drug) is an effective method of information that has been around since at least the time of the Nazis. It works and is painless. ? exactly......why use a jack hammer to crack a nut.... its the 21st century why use primitive methods Dearest Lin and Mouse! If Sodium Penthothal and similar drugs can quickly and effectively get information such as the whereabouts of a kidnap victim or an impending terrorist attack i'd be very supportive of this option.
Maybe in the future we'll have say a brain wave modifier that can get the needed information quickly and reliably, without any harm or duress to the information source. If we get this far then "enhanced interrogation" and torture which i see as two seperate matters will be obsolete.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 10, 2010 5:28:38 GMT
The rights of victims is something that's a moot point, Anna. Anna, have you ever read 'Cautio Criminalis' by Father Spee? He was able to persuade a number of enlightened people within the Catholic Church that torture was NOT a successful method of getting information. From that time onwards its use began to decline sharply. No, but i suspect Father Spee with all due respect didn't live in the real world! Even terrorists are human beings and have the same right to humane treatment as anyone else. Dearest Lin! Please! Are you saying that if someone kidnapped one of your children you'd rather have these bureaucratic red tape nimcompoops deal with the kidnapper giving him ( it ) all his rights including having his defense attorney present, if he's agrees to be questioned? See my next post for more on that!Are we living in the 21st century or in the 15th? In the 21th century of course and YES enhanced interrogation has largely replaced torture.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 10, 2010 5:39:50 GMT
Perhaps some of you have seen the film "Dirty Harry"! A sadistic, homicidal sex predator kidnapped a young girl and was holding her in an underground tomb with only enough air for a few hours! Officer Callahan, played by Clint Eastwood cuts through all the bureaucratic red tape to locate the predator and coerce him into revealing the whereabouts of his kidnap victim! Imagine that this was your child kidnapped! In the YouTube link above we can see how someone, who truly upholds the law and truly protects the innocent gets the job done!
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Post by riotgrrl on May 10, 2010 6:28:15 GMT
Anna, this is a common plot in dramas - isn't 24 more or less the same thing.
But that's just a dramatic plot device used by movie and TV makers. It doesn't reflect reality.
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Post by riotgrrl on May 10, 2010 6:30:12 GMT
Indeed, I'd go so far as to say that even if we did allow torture in situations where a child was being held hostage, and we had captured a man who would not tell us where . . . . we still wouldn't torture anyone so rare would that set of circumstances be.
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Post by mouse on May 10, 2010 8:10:49 GMT
above we can see how someone, who truly upholds the law and truly protects the innocent gets the job done! [/color][/size][/quote]i have already stated that if any one harmed or was harming mine family or country...i wouldnt be adverse to seeing them reduced to a gibbering decimated wreck even the rack and iron maiden wouldnt be out of the question and they would see death as blessed release.......but that is me being emotional about what i love..and value the reality is that it is simply a base human instinct for revenge[which i am not against..but is as they say best done cold . however emotion doesnt get results..cold logic and modern technology can and we are talking about the state not private citizens and dirty harry is not your every day story...intelligence work cannot be built on torture..its too variable in result...especially when in the case under discussion many inmates of gitmo are guilty of nothing...nothing more than fighting for what they believe in..foot soldiers..wrong place wrong time and others guilty of nothing at all other than turning them in got the person who turned them in 30 pieces of silver its a murky dirty world and america has done its self no favours
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Post by mouse on May 10, 2010 8:14:51 GMT
Indeed, I'd go so far as to say that even if we did allow torture in situations where a child was being held hostage, and we had captured a man who would not tell us where . . . . we still wouldn't torture anyone so rare would that set of circumstances be. and of course the mindset its totally different...in the capture/harm of a child and a fighting man/terrorist..the aims and the mindset are very important and riot makes a very valid and important point...giving govs the power to torture[real torture] where does that power end...usually inflicted on the general population our gov took powers their excuse was the fight against terrorism and who have those powers been used against...yup the general population...not a road to go down ... be careful what you wish for is a very good maxim
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 28, 2010 5:11:05 GMT
I can understand the argument that America should become a big Switzerland and not get involved in fighting terrorism!
If however America remains involved in the war against terrorism then "enhanced interrogation" is neccesary! In the 23 minute YouTube video an insider defends "waterboarding" and enhanced interrogation as neccesary!
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Post by Big Lin on May 28, 2010 17:30:34 GMT
Father Spee certainly DID live in the real world - more than the lunatics who were torturing and murdering 'heretics' and 'witches' did - and in fact it was what he saw with his own eyes - and what he was able to show to highly placed doubters in the Church - convinced him that it was unjust as well as being morally wrong.
The 'war on terror' is as mythical and as doomed to failure as the 'war on drugs' or the 'war on crime.'
Nor is there EVER the SLIGHTEST excuse for a supposedly civilised nation to use torture.
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Post by Big Lin on May 28, 2010 17:32:42 GMT
I can understand the argument that America should become a big Switzerland and not get involved in fighting terrorism!
If however America remains involved in the war against terrorism then "enhanced interrogation" is neccesary! In the 23 minute YouTube video an insider defends "waterboarding" and enhanced interrogation as neccesary! Anna, some Nazis defended what THEY did. So did some KGB people. So did Pol Pot and Mao. Just because some people like torturing other people and come up with dishonest excuses to justify their sadism is as crazy as if we took the attitude that Jack the Ripper was performing some sort of public service!
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♫anna♫
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The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 29, 2010 4:07:52 GMT
Father Spee certainly DID live in the real world - more than the lunatics who were torturing and murdering 'heretics' and 'witches' did - and in fact it was what he saw with his own eyes - and what he was able to show to highly placed doubters in the Church - convinced him that it was unjust as well as being morally wrong. The 'war on terror' is as mythical and as doomed to failure as the 'war on drugs' or the 'war on crime.' Nor is there EVER the SLIGHTEST excuse for a supposedly civilised nation to use torture. Dearest Lin! No one here is justifying the use of real torture in the inquisition! Yes even "enhanced interrogation" used to get someone to "confess" that they are A ) a witch, B ) war criminal C ) mass murderer, D ) other, is a horrific misuse of power! No one here justifies these methods for sadistic pleasure either!
Enhanced interrogation, which is not torture, is ONLY justified when used with the justified intent to save one or more human lives! For example to save the life of an imprisoned kidnapped victim or stop an impending homicidal terrorist attack!
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Post by mouse on May 29, 2010 7:54:50 GMT
enhanced interrogation is simply a less emotive way of saying torture.. no mattert how its dressed up no matter how sweetly its presented to the populace and guess what once you have tortured a man or woman..by doing your worst..waterboarding in this instance ..you have nothing more to hold over him..he has survived his fears...and you will never control him again a tortured man is useless as a weapon to any state when he knows that states limmitations on torture bit like the boy who cried wolf mind games and drugs bring much better results in breaking a man[so i am told]
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