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Post by toby on May 30, 2012 8:28:17 GMT
Syn posted.:-However I am not sure that we are running short on people at present, so no need to try to compel people to procreate, at present.
Toby comments.:- The UK Government try to justify the mass Immigration of 4000 people every week, by telling us there are not enough babies being born, so we do seem to be running short. Perhapos it is a Government Lie ?
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Post by toby on May 30, 2012 8:31:39 GMT
Sadie posted.;-Just as you are entitled to your opinion and to state it on here....so am I. I did state that it was my belief. Thanks!
Toby comments,.:- Of course you are and (without being patronising), I would agree with you but your comment of which I mentioned was just a tad devisive and assuming.
""But I believe you just like to keep a disagreement (conflict, difference, argument, debate, quarrel, etc) going. ""
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Post by sadie1263 on May 30, 2012 11:22:03 GMT
Sadie posted.;-Just as you are entitled to your opinion and to state it on here....so am I. I did state that it was my belief. Thanks! Toby comments,.:- Of course you are and (without being patronising), I would agree with you but your comment of which I mentioned was just a tad devisive and assuming. ""But I believe you just like to keep a disagreement (conflict, difference, argument, debate, quarrel, etc) going. "" I can't imagine why I would think that.........lol
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 30, 2012 13:48:43 GMT
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Post by Hunny on May 30, 2012 14:22:58 GMT
Their increased suicide rate is due to the stress of having to deal with people's attitudes towards them. That's why we should make every effort to accept them as the valuable human beings all wish to be accepted as. Suicide among LGBT youth From WikipediaResearchers have found that suicide among lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender youth (LGBT) is comparatively higher than among the general population. LGBT teens and young adults have one of the highest rates of suicide attempts. According to some groups, this is linked to heterocentric cultures and institutionalised homophobia in some cases, including the use of LGBT people as a political wedge issue like in the contemporary efforts to halt legalising same-sex marriages. Depression and drug use among LGBT people have both been shown to increase significantly after new laws that discriminate against gay people are passed. Bullying of LGBT youth has been shown to be a contributing factor in many suicides, even if not all of the attacks have been specifically addressing sexuality or gender more... CONCLUSION: It's not their sexuality which is the problem.
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on May 30, 2012 14:52:23 GMT
Their increased suicide rate is due to the stress of having to deal with people's attitudes towards them. That's why we should make every effort to accept them as the valuable human beings all wish to be accepted as. Suicide among LGBT youth From WikipediaResearchers have found that suicide among lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender youth (LGBT) is comparatively higher than among the general population. LGBT teens and young adults have one of the highest rates of suicide attempts. According to some groups, this is linked to heterocentric cultures and institutionalised homophobia in some cases, including the use of LGBT people as a political wedge issue like in the contemporary efforts to halt legalising same-sex marriages. Depression and drug use among LGBT people have both been shown to increase significantly after new laws that discriminate against gay people are passed. Bullying of LGBT youth has been shown to be a contributing factor in many suicides, even if not all of the attacks have been specifically addressing sexuality or gender more... CONCLUSION: It's not their sexuality which is the problem. Dearest Hunny, I have to be sceptical about your conclusion. The suicide rate of Black men is half that of White men, although Blacks are alledgedly also targeted by "certain attitudes". blog.cleveland.com/health/2008/03/black_mens_suicide_rate_half_o.html
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Post by mikemarshall on May 30, 2012 15:25:57 GMT
Anna, as you know I regard homosexuality as a disgusting and unnatural perversion. Nevertheless I found your comment quite extraordinary on two levels. To begin with, unless we are discussing those unfortunates who have become victims of paedophiles, homosexuality among adults at least is ALWAYS an 'option' just as heterosexuality is. I do not believe that men are being forced into homosexuality or women into lesbianism. Although I find the sexual preference of those who prefer to have sexual relationships with their own sex disgusting and unnatural it is certainly NOT something that is forced upon them. I may dislike homosexuality intensely but I would NOT make it against the law as it used to be and nor would I look upon a person's sexuality (leaving aside paedophiles) as being a sufficient reason for me to hold them in low esteem simply because of their sexual preferences. I regard same-sex relationships as a mistaken choice but it most certainly IS a choice. Try to imagine how your sentence would have read if you had reversed your words and said that 'heterosexuals should have the option not to be heterosexual' and someone of your excellent intelligence will certainly see that your sentence verges upon the meaningless. On the issue of suicide, there are many reasons why people - gay or otherwise - kill themselves. For what it is worth I used to have a friend who was gay and who died of AIDS. He was a fine poet and I went to his funeral and made an address saying what a nice person he was and how good his poetry was. On the specific issue of suicide among gays I am inclined to agree with Hunny that it is probably the result of active persecution. I no more support persecuting or discriminating against homosexuals than I would support the opposite policy. For what it is worth there is certainly a culture in the media, particularly in Britain, of what might be called 'heterophobia' and 'homosexism.' I do not support that any more than I support their opposites. Yes, I find homosexuality disgusting but that is NOT a reason to treat them with any less respect than anyone else. I regard it as an extremely sad affair when anyone commits suicide. If they do it because of anxieties concerning their sexuality I find that a matter of profound regret.
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Post by Synonym on May 30, 2012 17:03:41 GMT
I may dislike homosexuality intensely but I would NOT make it against the law as it used to be and nor would I look upon a person's sexuality (leaving aside paedophiles) as being a sufficient reason for me to hold them in low esteem simply because of their sexual preferences. Why would you hold something a person has no control over against them?
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Post by trubble on May 30, 2012 18:59:35 GMT
He's just said he wouldn't where homosexuality was concerned; so you must mean his reference to paedophiles?
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Post by trubble on May 30, 2012 19:05:31 GMT
Their increased suicide rate is due to the stress of having to deal with people's attitudes towards them. That's why we should make every effort to accept them as the valuable human beings all wish to be accepted as. Suicide among LGBT youth From WikipediaResearchers have found that suicide among lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender youth (LGBT) is comparatively higher than among the general population. LGBT teens and young adults have one of the highest rates of suicide attempts. According to some groups, this is linked to heterocentric cultures and institutionalised homophobia in some cases, including the use of LGBT people as a political wedge issue like in the contemporary efforts to halt legalising same-sex marriages. Depression and drug use among LGBT people have both been shown to increase significantly after new laws that discriminate against gay people are passed. Bullying of LGBT youth has been shown to be a contributing factor in many suicides, even if not all of the attacks have been specifically addressing sexuality or gender more... CONCLUSION: It's not their sexuality which is the problem. Dearest Hunny, I have to be sceptical about your conclusion. The suicide rate of Black men is half that of White men, although Blacks are alledgedly also targeted by "certain attitudes". blog.cleveland.com/health/2008/03/black_mens_suicide_rate_half_o.html Homosexuality raises different issues. For example, can you imagine a situation where a black teenager has to work up the courage to tell his parents that he is black? Knowing that his dad hates blacks? Even if he does feel strong enough to face them: ''Mum, Dad, I've something to tell you. I'm black" and even if his Mum stops crying and his Dad calms down they might decide it's better not to tell Auntie Oprah cos, you know, she just couldn't handle it....
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Post by Synonym on May 30, 2012 19:07:57 GMT
He's just said he wouldn't where homosexuality was concerned; so you must mean his reference to paedophiles? Yes, as it is not a chosen sexual preference.
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Post by trubble on May 30, 2012 19:25:19 GMT
Maybe it's just too disgusting to contemplate. I must admit that I find it so. I would have to fight to give any sort of esteem to a known paedophile because the chosen preference is always a victim and never consents and because it goes against all our natural instincts which are to protect a child.
Of course, some esteem could be mustered for a paedophile who has never acted on his/her preferences and has found a successful method to prevent him/herself from acting. That esteem would be for the huge work and moral choice he/she has made.
I apologise for continuing the conversation -- it's so depressing that discussions about homosexuality always manage to include paedophilia somewhere. Maybe it should be in another thread? ?
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Post by Synonym on May 30, 2012 21:23:44 GMT
The statement was:
"nor would I look upon a person's sexuality (leaving aside paedophiles) as being a sufficient reason for me to hold them in low esteem simply because of their sexual preferences."
Holding people in low esteem because of their behaviour is a different thing to holding them in low esteem due to their preferences.
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Post by mikemarshall on May 30, 2012 22:39:56 GMT
I may dislike homosexuality intensely but I would NOT make it against the law as it used to be and nor would I look upon a person's sexuality (leaving aside paedophiles) as being a sufficient reason for me to hold them in low esteem simply because of their sexual preferences. Why would you hold something a person has no control over against them? I did NOT say that I would hold their sexual preferences against them, I said that I found them disgusting and that remains my feeling. On the other hand I do not believe that a person's sexuality defines them as a person or is the only or at least most important thing about them. The idea that same=sex relationships are something over which a person has 'no control' I find quite incredible. Unless you adopt a determinist position on the issue of free will then that statement is utterly counter factual. We are ALL capable of controlling our sexuality. I have lusted after far more women than I have ever had sexual relations with and I have never attempted to pressure any woman into having sex with me against her will.
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Post by mikemarshall on May 30, 2012 22:59:41 GMT
He's just said he wouldn't where homosexuality was concerned; so you must mean his reference to paedophiles? Yes, as it is not a chosen sexual preference. That is nothing more than an opinion and one which I find frankly incredible. Let me contrast homosexuality and lesbianism on the one hand with transsexuality on the other. Transsexuals really ARE in a difficult position. They are physically male or female but mentally feel totally trapped in the wrong body. It is like a cripple who wishes to be an athlete; I have nothing but sympathy for transsexuals who have clearly been the victims of an unfortunate genetic mistake. Homosexuality and lesbianism is a different matter. They ARE conscious lifestyle choices and gays and lesbians are NOT 'trapped in the wrong body' but simply oriented in what I consider an unnatural way. If same-sex relationships were the norm what would become of the future of the human race? I am NOT against same-sex couples having children but I DO worry about it. It seems to me to reduce the man to nothing more than a sperm donor and the woman to nothing more than an egg carrier. Both to me are deeply degrading and dehumanising To disapprove of an action on moral grounds does not of course mean that I wish to see it outlawed nor that I regard those who practise what I consider to be perversions as necessarily depraved or bad people. I long ago learnt to separate out a person's character into many aspects and dimensions. Their sexual orientation is simply one facet of them and not on the whole the most important one.. I hope that clarifies my position slightly more than before
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Post by trubble on May 30, 2012 23:13:14 GMT
They have been part of the norm forever as far as we know, and the human race is so successful that we have to find ways to reduce our presence on the earth or find a new planet!
Certainly every culture and race and country contains homosexual people and in cross-culture studies there have been results that indicate homosexuals play a positive role in continuing the culture, tribe and human race. (Children having uncles or aunts, for example, that can co-parent, be it physically nursing a child or even leaving their wealth to them etc etc).
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Post by trubble on May 30, 2012 23:18:20 GMT
I have lusted after far more women than I have ever had sexual relations with and I have never attempted to pressure any woman into having sex with me against her will. But you're not a monk. You don't have to apologise or feel bad for your natural instinct towards fancying women. Some men find women a complete turn off. They can't choose that any more than you choose to fancy them. Would you think it fair to ask a gay person to ''control'' their will to the extent that they weren't allowed to sleep with someone they fancied or were in love with? Even when the other person felt the same about them and no one else could be harmed by it? Of course you wouldn't, that's why you don't support laws that make it illegal. I understand the act of homosexual sex being disgusting to you, I think it's normal that we each have various sexual activities that we find repellant, but if you try not to think about the sex itself do you still find it disgusting? You clearly don't find the person themselves disgusting, you've said so very eloquently, but are you saying that being in love with someone is disgusting?
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Post by mikemarshall on May 30, 2012 23:18:44 GMT
They have been part of the norm forever as far as we know, and the human race is so successful that we have to find ways to reduce our presence on the earth or find a new planet! Certainly every culture and race and country contains homosexual people and in cross-culture studies there have been results that indicate homosexuals play a positive role in continuing the culture, tribe and human race. (Children having uncles or aunts, for example, that can co-parent, be it physically nursing a child or even leaving their wealth to them etc etc). Trubble, by definition what you have said cannot be true. One cannot be 'part of the norm;' one either IS the norm or is NOT. My point is that although there have always been gays and lesbians they are and always have been a minority. If that was not the case the human race would rapidly die out. Of course the Dark Greens would no doubt consider that an excellent idea but for those of us who are more moderate such a prospect can only be viewed with regret.
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Post by trubble on May 30, 2012 23:24:10 GMT
Have you reason to believe that homosexuality will become a majority orientation?
To be frank, you don't have to be Dark Green to think that a reduction in world population by contented choice of a non-reproductive relationship would be the kindest answer to the over population we currently must tackle. Our other choices are much more draconian -- one-child policies, for example.
Part of the norm. A minority of homosexual people within a majority of heterosexual people IS a norm.
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Post by mikemarshall on May 30, 2012 23:29:39 GMT
I have lusted after far more women than I have ever had sexual relations with and I have never attempted to pressure any woman into having sex with me against her will. But would you think it fair to ask a gay person to ''control'' their will to the extent that they weren't allowed to sleep with someone they fancied or were in love with? Even when the other person felt the same about them and no one else could be harmed by it? Of course you wouldn't, that's why you don't support laws that make it illegal. I understand the act of homosexual sex being disgusting to you, I think it's normal that we each have various sexual activities that we find repellant, but if you try not to think about the sex itself do you still find it disgusting? You clearly don't find the person themselves disgusting, you've said so very eloquently, but are you saying that being in love with someone is disgusting? I think you raise some interesting points and I apologise if (not for the first time) I have failed to express myself with sufficient clarity. To take your points in approximately reverse order. Of course I do not find being in love with someone disgusting. I am very much in love with my wife! And I have known three or four same-sex couples (three male, one female) where there clearly was genuine love between the couples and it really was for life (literally in the case of the lesbians as one of them died tragically young of cancer).. Now I have personal reasons for finding homosexual activity disgusting which I am not particularly willing to discuss on the open board. I DO consider anal intercourse disgusting and unnatural and I have never engaged in that with either my wife or any of my girlfriends before we became an item. Now in terms of relationships in general I can honestly say that I have NEVER slept with a girl that I did NOT have considerable feeling for. I might not have loved all my girlfriends (I did love three of them) but I felt very deeply fond of all of them. The whole idea of sex without feeling disgusts me whether it's promiscuous heterosexuals or promiscuous gays. In general gays APPEAR to be more prone to the quick amoral fuck although I am well aware that heterosexuals are just as capable of sex without feeling. I am not sure if that helps to clarify my position more fully. I certainly hope so but I sometimes find it difficult to express myself lucidly enough.
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