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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2012 1:06:09 GMT
Just imagine..
What if...
There really is NO God?
What if all we have is here and now? Nothing more. Zilch. No after-life of any kind, no spirits, no angels, good or bad, no hell, nothing.
And if that is so, then why do so many people in this world waste so much time on - religion, and praying to a God that may no exist?
What if all the millions, if not billions spend on Churches, temples, Mosques, Cathedrals, the Pope, (or whoever is the head of any particular religion) be all for nothing? What if when we die we finally realize this?
What does that say about us as human beings? Does it perhaps suggest that we are willing to believe just because others do? Or because it seems like the 'right' thing to do, or because we know no other way?
Any thoughts on this?
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Post by lonewolf on May 30, 2012 6:25:34 GMT
What if when we die we finally realize this? If you are capable of realizing then you aren’t dead. The sum total of your reality is life and that is all you will ever know. In other words; don’t worry about death because it is not something you will ever experience. |
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Post by Hunny on May 30, 2012 9:10:22 GMT
Just imagine.. What if... There really is NO God? What if all we have is here and now? Nothing more. Zilch. No after-life of any kind, no spirits, no angels, good or bad, no hell, nothing. And if that is so, then why do so many people in this world waste so much time on - religion, and praying to a God that may no exist? What if all the millions, if not billions spend on Churches, temples, Mosques, Cathedrals, the Pope, (or whoever is the head of any particular religion) be all for nothing? What if when we die we finally realize this? What does that say about us as human beings? Does it perhaps suggest that we are willing to believe just because others do? Or because it seems like the 'right' thing to do, or because we know no other way? Any thoughts on this? "God" is something we imagine, to alleviate fears of insignificance and death. We also use it for excuses. But we'll use anything for excuses. Imagine a species that wakes to consciousness, and finds its existence unexplainable. A superstitious animal... there ya' go. No one knows the answers to the mystery of existence. We just seem to be, and that's very disconcerting (or at least for a period of a life, it is). There's a need to come to terms with the idea that we all die. There's a need to understand the whys of things. I found that religion creates more confusion than it clears up. It offers an omnipotent being which could do anything, yet it allows misery. Why? -for example. I'm going to offer you two brilliant TV series to watch. This one: www.shoppbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=4365261&cp=&sr=1&kw=the+power+of+myth&origkw=the+power+of+myth&parentPage=searchAnd this one: www.shoppbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=1978871&cp=&sr=1&kw=cosmos&origkw=Cosmos&parentPage=searchDon't just get the "soft cover book", you need the dvd's. These are available at the library if you dont wish to purchase them. They will give some answers. In the meantime, know that life is for learning, but learning wont happen unless you seek knowledge actively. _________________________________ Here is John Lennon... Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try No hell below us, above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for, and no religions too Imagine all the people Living life in peace You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will be as one Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger, a brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one |
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Post by trubble on May 30, 2012 19:14:27 GMT
... there are some who would describe ''God'' as consciousness.
In other words, they experience the spiritual connection with what people often call God but others call the Universal Consciousness, or others call simply "Spirit".
Who's to say that connection isn't real even if we've bundled it into an unbelievable collection of superstitions and superpowers and called it God the Father. Even if we've got that bit wrong.
And who's to say there isn't a consciousness after death even if it's not heavenly or hellish or anything remotely near human consciousness.
Who's to say karma and coincidence and fate isn't the work of a group of ancient ''souls'' now functioning on a different level of consciousness, one cosciousness working together, but able to guide and nudge little human beings, and all of the beings of the universe. Godlike.
Just passing thoughts, as I am currently pondering these things myself.
But if there's definitely no God, no afterlife, no consciousness...
I think we have a natural human instinct to seek significance and experience things on a spiritual level. My guess is that our earliest ancestors who acted on that instinct were better survivors, that instinct helped them survive, and so the instinct was strengthened in the population - natural selection - and we have evolved from people who had it.
So it's a helpful instinct, not a stupid one, and somewhat impossible to completely remove.
Even atheists find spirituality (perhaps as LOVE) and significance and a raison d'etre to be vital to a happy life.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2012 20:54:51 GMT
The replies on here are so interesting.
Hunny, thanks for the links. That John Lennon songs says to much.
trubble, yes, it is human instinct to sometimes just stop and ponder of the significance of life and actually of why we do the things we do, day after day.
Here's a Diana Ross song that, even though a little sad, makes you think:
Diana Ross - Do You Know
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Post by mikemarshall on May 30, 2012 23:15:36 GMT
I think the existence of God and the possibility of life after death are two entirely separate and unrelated concepts.
it is possible to believe in one and not the other.
For instance, the Old Testament Jews before the Exile believed in God but NOT in life after death.
After the Exile they developed a belief in the afterlife.
Some Christian sects (particularly the Christadelphians and I believe the Mormons) think that when we die we simply sleep until the Last Judgement.
Now as to the existence or non-existence of God I am not persuaded either way.
There are good arguments on both sides of the question.
I do however broadly lean towards a belief in the reality of life after death.
Most of my reasons for doing so are based upon personal experience.
For instance, I have seen ghosts, experienced poltergeist activity, and received messages in dreams from dead family members.
A week after my favourite aunt died I received an irresistible pull to go into her favourite store (Debenhams) in Oxford Street which was somewhere I just never went.
I saw her dressed in an outfit I knew well and with the pianist playing her favourite tune (The Dream of Olwen).
yp
I remembered then that when she was dying and I saw her for the last time she said to me that she would come back and prove to me that there WAS life after death.
Of course dogmatic doubters will dismiss this, say I am flakey or lying or some similar type of argumentem ad hominem.
All I can do is say, in the words of Galileo, eppur si mouve.
I cannot explain my experiences but to me it is MORE intellectually dishonest to deny them than to accept that 'there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.'
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2012 1:25:14 GMT
I like the idea of Heaven (but not hell  ). I hope and wish there is a God and that we will all one day go to some 'place' to rest for ever and be happy for ever. But what is the possibility of that happening? mike, I have also experienced some of what you describe. But I always try and have tired to find some logical, scientific reasons as why I saw and experienced what I did. I just cannot make myself believe. |
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Post by mikemarshall on Jun 1, 2012 19:24:37 GMT
Deyana, I have oriented my life around logic and reason. I am a former lecturer in philosophy and am also a hard-headed enough person to be always willing to doubt first and believe only when persuaded.
However it is very difficult when (to take just one example) I and my wife and two children were all sitting down on a settee and yet suddenly were lifted up two feet into the air to find any credible explanation for that phenomenon.
It is difficult when one is fully conscious and sober and yet sees a black-cowled monk walking straight through the walls of your house to find any credible explanation.
It is difficult when someone you loved tells you that they will prove to you that there IS life after death and a week later you go into their favourite store - pulled there by an unconscious tugging and against your will - to SEE them standing on the first floor as you are ascending the escalator. And to hear the pianist playing that person's favourite tune at the very same instant.
Sometimes it is more irrational to presume coincidence than to consider a paranormal explanation.
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Post by lonewolf on Jun 1, 2012 19:34:22 GMT
I once made the very same claim but have since come to realize what I had seen was in my own, not fully awakened, mind. |
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Post by trubble on Jun 1, 2012 19:54:06 GMT
Deyana, I think I do the same as you, always too sceptical to believe, always explaining things, always giving the benefit of the doubt to science even if it hasn't proved itself, yet still we are here...wondering. So our explanations mustn't be fully satisfactory!
Mike: re messages in dreams: I had a remarkable dream one time where my grandmother RIP visited me to meet my young daughter. There were enough things in the dream that made me wonder whether some sort of visitation had really occurred. That dream, along with several others, is one of the reasons I keep an open mind about things.
I will keep on reasoning these things away, enough to make me distrust my own mind, but I hope one day to be fully reasoned away from it all, or to finally surrender and enjoy as a fact that I have experienced something amazing.
Lonewolf, was it "sleep paralysis"?
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Post by Hunny on Jun 1, 2012 20:04:06 GMT
I find a lot of comfort in having found that humans are all a bit "intuitive". And why not, a dog can sense what's around the corner before he gets there to see it; so why shouldn't a higher animal have this ability. It is an early warning system for trouble. You know, like when you "get a bad feeling" from someone.
I also find I know when certain people are thinking about me (not just anyone, but when there's a connection). And i know generally what another is thinking, on occasion.
That was a big step, for an atheist like me, to find that we are all "as one" (connected). And I have had a minor mystical experience too, so I am aware of the whole universe as being somehow "as one". I dont know what it means, but i sense that we are not really as "individual" as we think we are! And we're capable of being somewhat psychic.
It's kind of cool.
But it doesnt equate to having a religion, a deity, an invisible omnipotence that threatens me into obeying its will.. That stuff is man made, in my observation. -just to make ourselves feel better about being small and mortal and vulnerable. But there COULD be something more. I certainly have no proof there isn't. I just dont have any proof there is. (They call that agnostic, not atheist, I know, but .. I see there is a preponderance of evidence that the major religions are just myths, in a long line of myths, humanly useful, but just stories..so I'm atheist. I dont see any religion around which wasn't concocted by people
But as I'm saying, that isn't any reason to shut off our senses, or close our minds..
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Post by trubble on Jun 1, 2012 20:27:30 GMT
Good post.
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Post by mikemarshall on Jun 1, 2012 21:16:56 GMT
I once made the very same claim but have since come to realize what I had seen was in my own, not fully awakened, mind. Ah, but what I and other witnesses also saw at the same time when we were all fully awake and conscious is rather harder to explain. For example, a settee with myself, my wife and two children sitting on it lifting up into the air for a distance of approximately two feet. For instance, I and several other people seeing a black-cowled monk walk directly through a wall. Or builders (some years after I had sold the property in which these events took place) complaining of both poltergeist events and of seeing mysterious figures (generally monks - the house was built on what used to be a mediaeval monastery). I have lived on this earth for almost 54 years and in that time I have learned that science no more has all the answers than religion or any other system of belief. What is certain is that a dogmatic refusal to consider possibilities is almost guaranteed to make a search for the truth more rather than less difficult. I do not believe in God but I am an agnostic and not an atheist. I regard the atheist claim as being as impossible to prove as the theistic contention. On the specific issue of life after death it is entirely possible to formulate a working hypothesis along which that might be accommodated with existing scientific principles without any necessity to involve a supernatural being. The principle of the conservation of energy is one possibility, for instance. I find that atheists are often more motivated by an emotional distaste for the excesses of the trappings of religion rather than by a genuine intellectual ability to disprove theism. Even Dawkins has now conceded that he is no longer an atheist but now regards himself as an agnostic. IMO that is the rational point of view to adopt. |
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jun 2, 2012 2:14:14 GMT
On the one hand, I agree that our world is too complex, orderly, and beautiful to have evolved by accident. The idea of a creator, therefore, does get some traction.
But accepting that one thought doesn't get me buying into Catholicism and all their dogma, Islam, or any other organized religion. There is such a giant leap of logic from "maybe there was a creator," to "Allah is the only god, Mohammed is his messenger, and the Quran it truth." Ditto for the other religious dogmas. I wouldn't buy into the afterlife idea for the same reasons.
My view is that there are some things we know, some things we might know, some things we don't know, and some things that are unknowable given our present intellect and technologies.
Visualize a school of super smart fish swimming around in the ocean and trying to understand mountain climbing. Ain't gonna happen no matter how smart those fish are. Mountain climbing is simply beyond their ability to understand. That's the way it is with us and the afterlife, etc.
There are lots of other things beyond our ability to understand, not just religious issues. Astronomy gives us many examples.
It is true that we know more and more as time goes by. Napoleon would be amazed if he could visit present day Paris, see air travel, computers and the internet, motorized transportation, modern weaponry, etc. There were a lot of things that were unknowable to Napoleon's generation that are common knowledge to us. Much has changed in the last 200 years.
Our descendants are likely to know much more than we do. Too bad we won't be around to observe.
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Post by lonewolf on Jun 2, 2012 3:26:05 GMT
Our ancestors are likely to know much more than we do. You mean our descendants. |
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jun 2, 2012 18:09:06 GMT
Our ancestors are likely to know much more than we do. You mean our descendants. Thanks Lonewolf. Fixed it. Typing too fast. Shaking my head and thinking, "Did I really type that?" |
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Post by Hunny on Jun 3, 2012 12:53:56 GMT
I'm going to post these lyrics again, and apologize for
having copied them so wrong the first time.
It seems important to me, to get them right, since they
are some of the most meaningful words ever written.
They say.. that all the fighting and judging which befouls
the otherwise beautiful world is imagined by us.
..And Lennon offers us that we might want to imagine a world
without imaginary differences to quabble over.
It's up to us.
_________________________________
Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try
No hell below us, above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for, and no religions too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger, a brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
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Post by mikemarshall on Jun 3, 2012 21:23:23 GMT
I have to say that this is one of the most appalling and nauseating songs I have ever had the misfortune to listen to.
In the first place its melody is about on the same level as a pub song.
Secondly, its lyrics are simultaneously insincere, hypocritical, patronising and nauseatingly twee.
The idea of a multimillionaire like Lennon saying 'imagine no possessions' is on the same level of hypocrisy as when Himmler described the concentration camps in Germany as 'an act of care.'
Lennon was a snob, a poseur, a fake (he put on his Scouse accent to try to pretend to be working class), and a vicious homophobe and anti-Semite (he once told Brian Epstein he was a 'queer Jew' for instance and he said it in a deliberately insulting and offensive way.)
His political views were also a lot more right-wing than his admirers realise. He often expressed racist attitudes about blacks and Jews and he was also a strong supporter of police brutality towards demonstrators.
One winter he organised a collection on behalf of the New York cops after they had been engaged in a particularly bad example of brutality against political activists.
A loathsome man who was almost completely talent-free (I dislike McCartney almost as much and Harrison and Starr were the only Beatles towards whom I feel even a minute degree of affection.)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2012 22:05:47 GMT
Deyana, I have oriented my life around logic and reason. I am a former lecturer in philosophy and am also a hard-headed enough person to be always willing to doubt first and believe only when persuaded. However it is very difficult when (to take just one example) I and my wife and two children were all sitting down on a settee and yet suddenly were lifted up two feet into the air to find any credible explanation for that phenomenon. It is difficult when one is fully conscious and sober and yet sees a black-cowled monk walking straight through the walls of your house to find any credible explanation. It is difficult when someone you loved tells you that they will prove to you that there IS life after death and a week later you go into their favourite store - pulled there by an unconscious tugging and against your will - to SEE them standing on the first floor as you are ascending the escalator. And to hear the pianist playing that person's favourite tune at the very same instant. Sometimes it is more irrational to presume coincidence than to consider a paranormal explanation. Thanks for sharing these experiences with us, mike. They are of course amazing. Hard to explain, unexplainable I guess. Do you remember the man called Uri Geller? He could bend forks with his mind alone (or so it appeared). The reason I mention him is that I do wonder what minds are capable of that we don't know about? If Uri Geller could bend metal with his mind alone, then is it possible that you could have moved that sofa with your mind? Have you heard of cases where a child is trapped under a car that could explode at any time, and the mother moves that car over by herself, and by doing so frees her child. There have been a few of these cases. Where she finds the strength, do you know? It comes from her mind. It may look impossible, but to save her child she has somehow summoned up that physical strength through her own mind. That is a case of mind over matter. And maybe that explains many of these phenomenons that we or people experience? What do you think? Is that an explanation rather then there being some kind of spiritual power out there working by itself on it's own behalf? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2012 22:07:58 GMT
So many interesting points of view on here...
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Post by Hunny on Jun 3, 2012 23:10:39 GMT
Deyana, I have oriented my life around logic and reason. I am a former lecturer in philosophy and am also a hard-headed enough person to be always willing to doubt first and believe only when persuaded. However it is very difficult when (to take just one example) I and my wife and two children were all sitting down on a settee and yet suddenly were lifted up two feet into the air to find any credible explanation for that phenomenon. It is difficult when one is fully conscious and sober and yet sees a black-cowled monk walking straight through the walls of your house to find any credible explanation. It is difficult when someone you loved tells you that they will prove to you that there IS life after death and a week later you go into their favourite store - pulled there by an unconscious tugging and against your will - to SEE them standing on the first floor as you are ascending the escalator. And to hear the pianist playing that person's favourite tune at the very same instant. Sometimes it is more irrational to presume coincidence than to consider a paranormal explanation. Thanks for sharing these experiences with us, mike. They are of course amazing. Hard to explain, unexplainable I guess. Do you remember the man called Uri Geller? He could bend forks with his mind alone (or so it appeared). The reason I mention him is that I do wonder what minds are capable of that we don't know about? If Uri Geller could bend metal with his mind alone, then is it possible that you could have moved that sofa with your mind? Have you heard of cases where a child is trapped under a car that could explode at any time, and the mother moves that car over by herself, and by doing so frees her child. There have been a few of these cases. Where she finds the strength, do you know? It comes from her mind. It may look impossible, but to save her child she has somehow summoned up that physical strength through her own mind. That is a case of mind over matter. And maybe that explains many of these phenomenons that we or people experience? What do you think? Is that an explanation rather then there being some kind of spiritual power out there working by itself on it's own behalf? Adrenaline. www.wisegeek.com/what-is-adrenaline.htm |
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Post by Hunny on Jun 4, 2012 8:15:15 GMT
I have to say that this is one of the most appalling and nauseating songs I have ever had the misfortune to listen to. In the first place its melody is about on the same level as a pub song. Secondly, its lyrics are simultaneously insincere, hypocritical, patronising and nauseatingly twee. The idea of a multimillionaire like Lennon saying 'imagine no possessions' is on the same level of hypocrisy as when Himmler described the concentration camps in Germany as 'an act of care.' Lennon was a snob, a poseur, a fake (he put on his Scouse accent to try to pretend to be working class), and a vicious homophobe and anti-Semite (he once told Brian Epstein he was a 'queer Jew' for instance and he said it in a deliberately insulting and offensive way.) His political views were also a lot more right-wing than his admirers realise. He often expressed racist attitudes about blacks and Jews and he was also a strong supporter of police brutality towards demonstrators. One winter he organised a collection on behalf of the New York cops after they had been engaged in a particularly bad example of brutality against political activists. A loathsome man who was almost completely talent-free (I dislike McCartney almost as much and Harrison and Starr were the only Beatles towards whom I feel even a minute degree of affection.) Gee, you forgot to also add that he's a mass murderer who started the Chicago fire, and he smells weird, and is a 'disgusting' bisexual. What the hell is wrong with you? I can't believe you had the gall to post such garbage, aimed at my thoughts. You took something beautiful and pissed on it. In fact, of all the ASS HARD WORK I did writing today - and do each day - and this is the one answer I get? Tomorrow I'll find something better to do than waste my time posting where it isn't appreciated. |
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Post by lonewolf on Jun 4, 2012 10:39:20 GMT
If Uri Geller could bend metal with his mind alone, then is it possible that you could have moved that sofa with your mind? Hogwash! |
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Post by jean on Jun 4, 2012 11:39:34 GMT
Lennon was...a fake (he put on his Scouse accent to try to pretend to be working class)... The rest may be true, but that bit isn't. Don't forget, I was there. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2012 15:28:02 GMT
If Uri Geller could bend metal with his mind alone, then is it possible that you could have moved that sofa with your mind? Hogwash! Well why not? Unless you are saying that Uri Geller was a fake? Well he did a pretty good job of fooling the world then didn't he? |
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biglinmarshall.proboards.com/thread/7917/bits-pieces-magazine-issue-2024
Nov 4, 2024 17:39:29 GMT
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biglinmarshall.proboards.com/thread/7917/bits-pieces-magazine-issue-2024
Nov 4, 2024 17:39:29 GMT
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yay! 
thanks
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