Did the Atomic Bomb End WW2??

[toby]

Bush Admirer posted.:-And here is another site which debunks the other conspiracy theory that Roosevelt knew of the Pearl Harbor attack and wanted it to get Germany into the war.

Toby comments.:- You quoted a one-man site which offers no explanations to back up the assertation.
Reality is that Rooseveld organised a blockade of Oil to Japan, this was an illegal act as well as being the one action guaranteed to make Japan fight.
There were folk in the USA that knew of the attack, there were folk in Holland and Britain who knew of the attack and they told their USA Buddies who arranged that the most important targets, (the Carriers), were out at sea when the attack came and the old WW1 era Battleships with thin deck armour were sitting in Pearl (the Arizona).
The USA entered WW2 as an isolationist nation, they ended WW2 as the immensely rich victors and a World Power, that's what Rooseveld and Churchill wanted and that's what they connived and got.

[toby]

Bush admirer posted.:-I think you've been reading too many conspiracy theories. Try reading actual history instead.

Toby comments.:- The problem is that unless you go back in the past to read somebody with no axe to grind, you rarely get a true version of History.
I like Herodotus, he told the truth, warts and all but he was a classical Writer back in the good old days.
Most of what is called,'history', today is slanted one way or another with important bits left out or bowdlerized.

[Big Lin]

Look, frankly my grandfather fought the Japanese and he was quite convinced that without dropping the bomb loads more Allied troops would have been killed.

And the Japanese hardly played by the Geneva Convention, did they?

Life is sometimes a choice of evils.

If the bomb had not been dropped thousands of people would have died unnecessarily.

You don''t have to look on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as positive goods to regard them as the lesser of two evils.

And it wasn't until VERY recently that the Japanese even APOLOGISED for their war crimes!

And it was a very half-hearted apology given by a man who was only Prime Minister about five minutes!

[DAS (formerly BushAdmirer)]

To fully understand just how evil the Japanese government was during WWII, read the history of Saipan. Here is a Wikipedia link. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saipan

There is little or no doubt that the same sort of insane resistance would have been encountered had the Americans invaded Japan proper. The Atomic bomb voided the need to do that and saved many many lives, both American and Japanese.

Here is an excerpt:

Emperor Hirohito personally found the threat of defection of Japanese civilians disturbing.[2][unreliable source?] Much of the community was of low caste, and there was a risk that live civilians would be surprised by generous U.S. treatment. Native Japanese sympathizers would hand the Americans a powerful propaganda weapon to subvert the "fighting spirit" of Japan in radio broadcasts. At the end of June, Hirohito sent out an imperial order encouraging the civilians of Saipan to commit suicide.[2][unreliable source?] The order authorized the commander of Saipan to promise civilians who died there an equal spiritual status in the afterlife with those of soldiers perishing in combat. General Hideki Tōjō intercepted the order on 30 June 1944 and delayed its sending, but it went out anyway the next day. By the time the Marines advanced on the north tip of the island, from 8–12 July 1944, most of the damage had been done.[2][unreliable source?] 1,000 Japanese civilians committed suicide in the last days of the battle to take the offered privileged place in the afterlife, some jumping from "Suicide Cliff" and "Banzai Cliff".

[mikemarshall]

Apr 29, 2012 19:29:07 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

Apr 18, 2012 20:10:42 GMT Big Lin said:

I don't think anyone has said the atomic bomb was desirable.

It was IMO the lesser of two evils.

It's hardly as if the Japanese hadn't bombed civilian populations.

To say nothing of their other atrocities.

In war you sometimes have to make tough calls.

That's what Hiroshima and Nagasaki were; tough calls that IMO were the lesser of two evils

The lesser of the evils ( assuming FDR should have provoked Japan into starting a war with the US ) was offering Hirohito immunity from the start for a surrender. Emperor Hirohito made Tojo ( sometimes spelled Togo ) and the war cabinet. Hirohito could have replaced the warmongers, if his safety was garanteed.

Why on earth would the allies want to offer immunity to Hirohito when in fact he was an active and enthusiastic supporter of the whole imperialist policy in Japan? He was anything but an innocent prisoner of Tojo but was the leading Japanese war criminal.

In any event even when Japan finally surrendered it was on the basis of being allowed to keep Hirohito so your thesis does not seem to square with the facts.

Perhaps people need to remember that Japan had been waging a vicious and brutal war of aggression against China throughout the 1930s including the notorious Rape of Nanking.

If the Japanese people were so unhappy with the policy of their government why did they not follow the example of the Russians in 1917, Germans in 1918 or French in 1789 and overthrow their rulers?

The simple fact is that Japan was an aggressor even before the Nazis came to power. Their treatment of the Chinese people was appalling and drew world-wide condemnation.

Trying to present Hiroshima as some kind of moral scandal when it took the Japanese nearly 70 years to apologise for their own far more indefensible behaviour strikes me as having a strange sense of moral priorities, Anna.

I am very fond of you and always welcome your passion, your sincerity, your commitment and every aspect of your enthusiasm but though in general of course killing people is not something we should welcome there are times when it is the only possible recourse.

[♫anna♫]

Nov 6, 2012 21:04:34 GMT mikemarshall said:

Apr 29, 2012 19:29:07 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

The lesser of the evils ( assuming FDR should have provoked Japan into starting a war with the US ) was offering Hirohito immunity from the start for a surrender. Emperor Hirohito made Tojo ( sometimes spelled Togo ) and the war cabinet. Hirohito could have replaced the warmongers, if his safety was guaranteed.

Why on earth would the allies want to offer immunity to Hirohito when in fact he was an active and enthusiastic supporter of the whole imperialist policy in Japan? He was anything but an innocent prisoner of Tojo but was the leading Japanese war criminal.

In any event even when Japan finally surrendered it was on the basis of being allowed to keep Hirohito so your thesis does not seem to square with the facts.

Perhaps people need to remember that Japan had been waging a vicious and brutal war of aggression against China throughout the 1930s including the notorious Rape of Nanking.

If the Japanese people were so unhappy with the policy of their government why did they not follow the example of the Russians in 1917, Germans in 1918 or French in 1789 and overthrow their rulers?

The simple fact is that Japan was an aggressor even before the Nazis came to power. Their treatment of the Chinese people was appalling and drew world-wide condemnation.

Trying to present Hiroshima as some kind of moral scandal when it took the Japanese nearly 70 years to apologise for their own far more indefensible behaviour strikes me as having a strange sense of moral priorities, Anna.

I am very fond of you and always welcome your passion, your sincerity, your commitment and every aspect of your enthusiasm but though in general of course killing people is not something we should welcome there are times when it is the only possible recourse.

Emperor Hirohito at Disneyland.

Dearest Mike!
I'm simply amazed at posts like yours and Jumbos! You do realize that after Truman and his backers had a chance to cruelly test the atomic bomb on defenseless civilians emperor Hirohito and his entire family were granted immunity! Gen. Douglas MacArthur and many other high ranking Americans insisted that Hirohito & family be granted immunity to make the occupation of Japan harmonious and peaceful.
Remember Hirohito was according to the Shinto religion a direct descendant of a Shinto God! Trying him as a war criminal and executing him would have led to an unending partisan warfare against the American occupiers, which would certainly be going on today! It wasn't worth the price of peace and the countless American, allied and Japanese lives to execute Hirohito!

Was Hirohito a criminal? I guess so although he tried to portray himself as the captive of the Japanese pro war faction and not responsible for the crimes. Hirohito walked the walk and talked the talk and never said anything to embarass the Americans knowing that a lot of unpleasant information could have been released about his wartime role.

Honestly would anyone here on this forum give the lives of their children or family members to have Hirohito tried and executed as a war criminal? It's hypocritical to expect other families to sacrifice their children to this end! And now the ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM! Why wasn't Hirohito offered immunity earlier to end the war?

I firmly believe the entire war against Japan wasn't worth fighting! Defeating Japan only paved the way for the biggest criminal and mass murderer in history ever to reign: Mao! And bloodthirsty Mao made Hirohito look like a pussy cat!

WW2 should have been fought between Mao and Hirohito and Hitler and Stalin! These tyrants would have cancelled each other out!

[DAS (formerly BushAdmirer)]

Nov 5, 2012 8:33:13 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

The claim that there was anything good about killing at least 150,000 Japanese civilians with the atomic bomb and making the lives of those who survived into a living hell of radiation poisoning is wrong and obscene.

Anna - Please watch this video and then get back to me. Be sure to watch this in full screen This is the last of a series of 13 videos on WWII. It addresses the issue raised in this thread very well.

[Hunny]

England destroyed four major cities in Germany, with conventional bombing, killing 400,000 civilians as it went, to get them to surrender.

America killed less than that, getting Japan to surrender.

I dont see how anyone can say that was bad.


And as to leaving the warring to happen between China and Japan, Russia and Germany, that's an interesting proposal, but Japan had directly attacked us, and China had been unable to beat Japan for over a decade already. Likewise, Russia was in no condition all by itself to take care of Hitler's Nazis.

[toby]

Hunny posted.:-but Japan had directly attacked us

Toby comments.:- Roosevelt provoked the attack by Japan by organising an illegal blockade of Japanese Oil supplies.
The Japanese had 2 choices, surrender of fight.
Roosevelt knew this which is why he deliberately provoked the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour.

[♫anna♫]

Nov 11, 2012 10:13:24 GMT Hunny said:

England destroyed four major cities in Germany, with conventional bombing, killing 400,000 civilians as it went, to get them to surrender.

America killed less than that, getting Japan to surrender.

I dont see how anyone can say that was bad.


And as to leaving the warring to happen between China and Japan, Russia and Germany, that's an interesting proposal, but Japan had directly attacked us, and China had been unable to beat Japan for over a decade already. Likewise, Russia was in no condition all by itself to take care of Hitler's Nazis.

These senseless bombings of civilians never caused any surrender and only led to a lot of soldiers fighting a private war after they lost family members. Historians admit these civilian bombings that Churchill and Roosevelt wanted disrupted the German resistance against Hitler. How many Americans were willing to negotiate with Osama bin Laden after he senselessly killed a bunch of civilians in 911 and elsewhere.?

The Germans in fact with Franco's approval tested the effects of civilian bombings during the Spanish Civil War to see if this would demorialize the opposition and bring surrender. This experiment was a failure and much more likely leads to a dirty war and a total war. This is also exactly what Churchill and FDR wanted! They greatly feared a peaceful settlement!

[♫anna♫]

Nov 11, 2012 17:36:02 GMT toby said:

Hunny posted.:-but Japan had directly attacked us

Toby comments.:- Roosevelt provoked the attack by Japan by organising an illegal blockade of Japanese Oil supplies.
The Japanese had 2 choices, surrender of fight.
Roosevelt knew this which is why he deliberately provoked the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour.

The war criminal FD Roosevelt had in fact a plan before Pearl Harbor that he approved of to attack mainland Japan, if he couldn't provoke a Japanese attack against America! Squadrons of US airplanes were stationed in China with Chiang Kai-shek's pro colonalist Chinese troops and attacking Japanese troops already! They were to attack Japan, if war with the US couldn't be achieved by other means!

[♫anna♫]

Nov 11, 2012 1:09:34 GMT DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) said:

Nov 5, 2012 8:33:13 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

The claim that there was anything good about killing at least 150,000 Japanese civilians with the atomic bomb and making the lives of those who survived into a living hell of radiation poisoning is wrong and obscene.

Anna - Please watch this video and then get back to me. Be sure to watch this in full screen This is the last of a series of 13 videos on WWII. It addresses the issue raised in this thread very well.

Dearest Bush Admirer!
Your video supports what I've been saying all along! At the 44 minute mark Truman finally accepts Hirohito's condition that his position as emperor be maintained ( safeguarded ) and thus guaranteeing immunity after he/Truman could use his demonic atomic plaything on Nagasaki and exterminate more civilians! The Japanese were willing to surrender after Hirohito was granted immunity and could continue as emperor, not because of the mass murdering of civilians! Your video also supports my claim that the Russian declaration of war. The Invasions of Manchuria, Sakhalin and the impending Russian invasion of the Japanese mainland by Russia, not the US, made a much bigger impression on Hirohito and the Japanese war cabinet. They were discussing the Russian invasions and the atomic was only a sub topic! See the 41:30 minute mark on your video!

True! Truman made a speech claiming the Japanese accepted unconditional surrender, but that was another Truman lie!

[DAS (formerly BushAdmirer)]

Anna - You missed the important parts of that video. It was the casualty counts for American soldiers when invading islands like Okinawa late in the war and near Japan. The Japanese were fanatic with their suicidal Banzai attacks. It became clear to Truman that an invasion of Japan would meet similar resistance and casualties would be too high.

[♫anna♫]

Nov 12, 2012 1:07:33 GMT DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) said:

Anna - You missed the important parts of that video. It was the casualty counts for American soldiers when invading islands like Okinawa late in the war and near Japan. The Japanese were fanatic with their suicidal Banzai attacks. It became clear to Truman that an invasion of Japan would meet similar resistance and casualties would be too high.

Dearest Bush Admirer!
You miss the important points! There never would have been an American invasion of Japan because the Russians would have invaded first!

Truman should have "safeguarded" the Emperor's position much earlier to get a surrender. The battle of Okinawa with heavy losses on both sides may have never occured then! The atomic bomb did not end the war! Truman's promise and that the Japanese condition insisting that the Emperor's position be preserved/safeguarded would be finally granted ended the war. Again the Japanese never surrendered unconditionally and never would have!

Of course I don't even believe this stupid war that Roosevelt wanted was in America's interest! We should have let Mao and Hirohito fight it out! I would have preferred the Japanese fighting Mao and Communist expansion in Vietnam and Korea instead of American troops!!

[Big Lin]

Nov 11, 2012 17:36:02 GMT toby said:

Hunny posted.:-but Japan had directly attacked us

Toby comments.:- Roosevelt provoked the attack by Japan by organising an illegal blockade of Japanese Oil supplies.
The Japanese had 2 choices, surrender of fight.
Roosevelt knew this which is why he deliberately provoked the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour.

Tha Japanese had launched a war of aggression against China for years. It was marked by loads of atrocities by the Japanese and Roosevelt's blockade of Japan's oil supplies was no more 'illegal' or indefensible than the Japanese murder of Chinese civilians in cold blood (IMO a lot LESS bad)

Japan had three choices actually; to stop their aggression or to extend its range.

They chose to attack rather than stop behaving like barbarian thugs.

Sometimes in life you reap what you sow.

[toby]

BA posted.;-It was the casualty counts for American soldiers when invading islands like Okinawa late in the war and near Japan.

Toby comments.:- The intelligent thing to do would be to mount a blockade and starve them out. The Japanese Army was chronically short of rice anyway !!
That policy would result in few US casualties.

[toby]

Lin posted.:-They chose to attack rather than stop behaving like barbarian thugs.

Toby comments.;- But Lin, you are forgetting they ARE Barbarian Thugs, have been for thousands of years.
War is their life !
What would you say to Ghengis Khan or Attila ?
Be peaceful ?
They would laugh in your face !

It is a fact of life that there are strong folk and there are weak folk and it is normal for the strong to rule the weak.

[Big Lin]

Nov 13, 2012 13:44:42 GMT toby said:

Lin posted.:-They chose to attack rather than stop behaving like barbarian thugs.

Toby comments.;- But Lin, you are forgetting they ARE Barbarian Thugs, have been for thousands of years.
War is their life !
What would you say to Ghengis Khan or Attila ?
Be peaceful ?
They would laugh in your face !

It is a fact of life that there are strong folk and there are weak folk and it is normal for the strong to rule the weak.

Pound for pound British is best which is why we had the greatest empire the world's ever seen. That's why we beat the Germans and Japanese because when push came to shove we were tougher than they were.

My grandad fought for our country and he got caught up in the Burma campaign which was no flipping picnic!

[♫anna♫]

Intentionally targeting and bombing innocent civilians ( 150 civilians killed in Hiroshima + Nagasaki ) because they have a wacky government is just as wrong as exterminating the innocent families of serial killers.

Just another form of terrorism and terrorism doesn't work!

[DAS (formerly BushAdmirer)]

Nov 13, 2012 13:41:08 GMT toby said:

BA posted.;-It was the casualty counts for American soldiers when invading islands like Okinawa late in the war and near Japan.

Toby comments.:- The intelligent thing to do would be to mount a blockade and starve them out. The Japanese Army was chronically short of rice anyway !!
That policy would result in few US casualties.

That's a good thought Toby but I don't think it was a better alternative than the A-Bomb.

By that time, Japan had moved suicide attacks up to number 1 on their list of favorite tactics. They were giving short training sessions to new suicide volunteers and sending them off to their deaths. The US Naval fleet was the victim of those attacks.

The Yokosuka MXY-7 Ohka (桜花 "cherry blossom") was a purpose-built kamikaze aircraft employed by the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service towards the end of World War II. The US gave the aircraft the Japanese name Baka ("idiot").

It was a small flying bomb that was carried underneath a Mitsubishi G4M "Betty", Yokosuka P1Y Ginga "Frances" (guided Type 22) or planned Heavy Nakajima G8N Renzan "Rita" (transport type 43A/B) bomber to within range of its target; on release, the pilot would first glide towards the target and when close enough he would fire the Ohka's engine(s) and dive against the ship to destroy. That final approach was almost unstoppable (especially for Type 11) because the aircraft gained tremendous speed. Later versions were designed to be launched from coastal air bases and caves, and even from submarines equipped with aircraft catapults, although none were actually used this way.

For more details go to Wikepedia and read about Japanese special attack units. They were also developing high speed suicide boats and mini submarines for suicide attacks.

Had the U.S. opted for a starvation blockade, the navy would have been inundated with these suicide attacks. The Japanese were not of a mind to surrender. They would rather die than surrender.

[DAS (formerly BushAdmirer)]

Anna - the bombing and killing of civilians was par for the course with both Japan and Germany during the war. Hitler launched the Battle of Britain, V1s and V2s all aimed at the civilian population. England responded by bombing German cities. Japan raped, pillaged, and burned Chinese cities.

These were evil regimes and then needed to be shut down.

As a German, you should be thankful that the war in Europe ended a few months before the A-Bombs were ready to go. Otherwise they might have been used on Frankfurt and Berlin.

[♫anna♫]

Nov 13, 2012 23:31:48 GMT DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) said:

Nov 13, 2012 13:41:08 GMT toby said:

BA posted.;-It was the casualty counts for American soldiers when invading islands like Okinawa late in the war and near Japan.

Toby comments.:- The intelligent thing to do would be to mount a blockade and starve them out. The Japanese Army was chronically short of rice anyway !!
That policy would result in few US casualties.

That's a good thought Toby but I don't think it was a better alternative than the A-Bomb.

By that time, Japan had moved suicide attacks up to number 1 on their list of favorite tactics. They were giving short training sessions to new suicide volunteers and sending them off to their deaths. The US Naval fleet was the victim of those attacks.

The Yokosuka MXY-7 Ohka (桜花 "cherry blossom") was a purpose-built kamikaze aircraft employed by the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service towards the end of World War II. The US gave the aircraft the Japanese name Baka ("idiot").

It was a small flying bomb that was carried underneath a Mitsubishi G4M "Betty", Yokosuka P1Y Ginga "Frances" (guided Type 22) or planned Heavy Nakajima G8N Renzan "Rita" (transport type 43A/B) bomber to within range of its target; on release, the pilot would first glide towards the target and when close enough he would fire the Ohka's engine(s) and dive against the ship to destroy. That final approach was almost unstoppable (especially for Type 11) because the aircraft gained tremendous speed. Later versions were designed to be launched from coastal air bases and caves, and even from submarines equipped with aircraft catapults, although none were actually used this way.

For more details go to Wikepedia and read about Japanese special attack units. They were also developing high speed suicide boats and mini submarines for suicide attacks.

Had the U.S. opted for a starvation blockade, the navy would have been inundated with these suicide attacks. The Japanese were not of a mind to surrender. They would rather die than surrender.

Dearest BushAdmirer!
It's true that the Japanese found one or two kamikaze planes to use against the Russians, when the Soviets invaded and conquered Sakhahlin Island just off the Japanese mainline. They had not only little food, but very little fuel to fly any planes against their enemies. The fact that single planes like the Enola Gay could fly unescorted over Japan without fearing a single Japanese Zero interceptor illustrates this point.

If the war was worth fighting than Toby's suggestion of a blockade is absolutely correct. Of course Japan would have been conquered by the Russians and reduced to the status that North Korea has. We wouldn't have Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc. putting the US Auto industry out of business. I admit I prefer Japanese motorcycles and cars and owned 4 of them in the US and Germany.

[♫anna♫]

Nov 13, 2012 23:35:08 GMT DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) said:

Anna - the bombing and killing of civilians was par for the course with both Japan and Germany during the war. Hitler launched the Battle of Britain, V1s and V2s all aimed at the civilian population. England responded by bombing German cities. Japan raped, pillaged, and burned Chinese cities.

These were evil regimes and then needed to be shut down.

As a German, you should be thankful that the war in Europe ended a few months before the A-Bombs were ready to go. Otherwise they might have been used on Frankfurt and Berlin.

The Brits started civilian bombing against Germany! Churchill wanted to provoke Hitler into likewise bombing civilians instead of military targets and Churchill succeeded.
David Irving is absolutely right on this point! Parts 8, 9 and 10 of the video presentation below focus on who started the civilian bombings between England and Germany.


Part 1 of 10

tinyurl.com/bzb2ybn
Part 2 of 10

tinyurl.com/b2xc7tg
Part 3 of 10

tinyurl.com/a9q49c7
Part 4 of 10

tinyurl.com/avxob5s
Part 5 of 10

tinyurl.com/ac7fs23
Part 6 of 10

tinyurl.com/aqab929
Part 7 of 10

tinyurl.com/a67l7o2
Part 8 of 10

tinyurl.com/as425j9
Part 9 of 10

tinyurl.com/b65q5f9
Part 10 of 10

[DAS (formerly BushAdmirer)]

Nov 14, 2012 0:03:55 GMT ♫anna♫ said:

Nov 13, 2012 23:35:08 GMT DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) said:

Anna - the bombing and killing of civilians was par for the course with both Japan and Germany during the war. Hitler launched the Battle of Britain, V1s and V2s all aimed at the civilian population. England responded by bombing German cities. Japan raped, pillaged, and burned Chinese cities.

These were evil regimes and then needed to be shut down.

As a German, you should be thankful that the war in Europe ended a few months before the A-Bombs were ready to go. Otherwise they might have been used on Frankfurt and Berlin.

The Brits started civilian bombing against Germany! Churchill wanted to provoke Hitler into likewise bombing civilians instead of military targets and Churchill succeeded.
David Irving is absolutely right on this point! Parts 8, 9 and 10 of the video presentation below focus on who started the civilian bombings between England and Germany.


Part 1 of 10

tinyurl.com/bzb2ybn
Part 2 of 10

tinyurl.com/b2xc7tg
Part 3 of 10

tinyurl.com/a9q49c7
Part 4 of 10

tinyurl.com/avxob5s
Part 5 of 10

tinyurl.com/ac7fs23
Part 6 of 10

tinyurl.com/aqab929
Part 7 of 10

tinyurl.com/a67l7o2
Part 8 of 10

tinyurl.com/as425j9
Part 9 of 10

tinyurl.com/b65q5f9
Part 10 of 10

Anna - Here is a brief excerpt from Wikipedia on your Mr. Irving and his credibility as a historian:

His work on Nazi Germany became controversial because of his sympathy for the Third Reich, antisemitism and racism. He has associated with far right and neo-Nazi causes, famously during his student days seconding British Union of Fascists founder Oswald Mosley in a University College London debate on immigration. He has been described as "the most skillful preacher of Holocaust denial in the world today".

Irving's reputation as an historian was widely discredited after he brought an unsuccessful libel case against the American historian Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books. The English court found that Irving was an active Holocaust denier, antisemite, and racist, who "associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism", and that he had "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence".

[♫anna♫]

Dearest Bush Admirer!
I'm primarily interested in the documented facts that Mr. Irving presents in the videos I presented! These are documented proven facts and not hearsay! No one has succeeded in refuting these facts and all I hear are smears!