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Post by lakshmi on Mar 11, 2012 23:29:36 GMT
That's how I feel and if you don't agree that's fine. Omg i didnt EVER had a fight with u! Its not emotional thing only we discuss it yes?
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Mar 12, 2012 0:49:50 GMT
Anna - The information you posted falls into the 'interesting theories' category.
However, Truman's decision to drop the A Bomb falls into the 'fait accompli' category.
Truman will always be one of my heroes mainly because he made the tough decision to drop the A Bomb and end the war early, thereby saving perhaps 300,000 US Military lives.
No question Truman was one of our best Presidents, eclipsed only by Abraham Lincoln, Geeorge Washington, and George W Bush.
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Post by lakshmi on Mar 12, 2012 0:52:26 GMT
U didn't read annas posts
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Post by lonewolf on Mar 12, 2012 8:38:28 GMT
Two wrongs don't make a right! Hiroshima was not a military base as Truman claimed in his deceitful speech! There were neither military bases nor munitions factories. There were a few factories for military hardware on the outskirts of Hiroshima, but they were not damaged by the nuclear bombing! The population of Hiroshima was largely civilian! You just don’t get it do you? The Japanese were all over Asia and still actively killing people until the atomic bomb put an end their barbarism. [/b][/color][/size][/quote] GOOD GRIEF! Now I’m really confused! What, exactly, is your point, Anna Banana? Are you suggesting that because I find Asian women more attractive than I do Western women that it should somehow influence my opinion about the dropping of the atomic bomb on Japan?
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Mar 12, 2012 12:48:40 GMT
Two wrongs don't make a right! Hiroshima was not a military base as Truman claimed in his deceitful speech! There were neither military bases nor munitions factories. There were a few factories for military hardware on the outskirts of Hiroshima, but they were not damaged by the nuclear bombing! The population of Hiroshima was largely civilian! You just don’t get it do you? The Japanese were all over Asia and still actively killing people until the atomic bomb put an end their barbarism. Japan? If you repeat a lie a 100 times it becomes the truth! That is the basis of Truman's holy bomb Hiroshima myth! The US could have ended the war much earlier by giving Emperor Hirohito and his family immunity, which would have saved countless lives on both sides! Even if we ignore this fact then Tsuyoshi Hasegawa has shown in his book "Racing the Enemy" the Japanese surrendered primarily because the Russians had entered the war overrunning Manchuria in 10 days and were threatening to invade the Japanese mainland before the US invasion ( planned tentatively on Nov. 1, 1945 ) and NOT because of the atomic bomb!
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♫anna♫
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The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Mar 12, 2012 12:55:33 GMT
IMO dropping the bomb WAS the LESSER of two EVILS. Dearest Lin! You simply repeat Truman's holy bomb Hiroshima myth like lonewolf does! Tiki's is right! You ignore or refuse to read evidence and facts to the contrary and sadly repeat Truman's lie like a broken record! It was not a choice between two evils!
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♫anna♫
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Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Mar 12, 2012 13:28:40 GMT
Anna - The information you posted falls into the 'interesting theories' category. However, Truman's decision to drop the A Bomb falls into the 'fait accompli' category. Truman will always be one of my heroes mainly because he made the tough decision to drop the A Bomb and end the war early, thereby saving perhaps 300,000 US Military lives. No question Truman was one of our best Presidents, eclipsed only by Abraham Lincoln, Geeorge Washington, and George W Bush. Dearest BushAdmirer, You too repeat the holy bomb myth! This "logic" sounds like that of the rare fascists, who claim concentration camps were the lesser of the 2 evils because otherwise the Communists would have taken control of Germany. Wierd authocratic, militaristic dogmas!
Even in your scenario the Russians and not the Americans would have invaded mainland Japan first! The US planned to invade on Nov. 1, by which time Japan would have been a "Soviet republic", if Truman continued to refuse to accept Japan's surrender under the condition that Hirohito be giving immunity!
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Post by Big Lin on Mar 12, 2012 13:48:06 GMT
That's how I feel and if you don't agree that's fine. Omg i didnt EVER had a fight with u! Its not emotional thing only we discuss it yes? I didn't think I was fighting with either you or Anna, Tiki. We were just expressing our opinions which happen to be different. I think it was the lesser of two evils to drop the bomb; you and Anna think the opposite. That's fine. This is a discussion board and it would be pretty pointless if everyone said the same thing all the time. I've belonged to enough boards where disagreement with the 'received wisdom' of the board owners is totally discouraged. That is NEVER going to be the case here. I'm not some sort of gung-ho type who thinks zapping people is ever a GOOD idea. Sometimes, though, I think it's the lesser of two evils.
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Post by Big Lin on Mar 12, 2012 13:55:16 GMT
IMO dropping the bomb WAS the LESSER of two EVILS. Dearest Lin! You simply repeat Truman's holy bomb Hiroshima myth like lonewolf does! Tiki's is right! You ignore or refuse to read evidence and facts to the contrary and sadly repeat Truman's lie like a broken record! It was not a choice between two evils!Anna, saying somethiing is 'the lesser of two evils' is NOT the same as saying it was a positive GOOD, let alone that it'# 'holy.' I always hate violence and death but there just are times in life when there's no obvious alternative. This was one of them. I ask again - do you seriously believe that if the Germans and/or Japanese had had the bomb they wouldn't have used it? Do you deny that both countries killed people in cold blood and used slave labour (which often resulted in death?) In war, the bottom line is that you have to kill more of the enemy than they do of you. It's not pretty, it's not morally easy and it's anything BUT a good thing to have to do. But sometimes it just is necessary. My grandad spent the last six months of the wear fighting the Japanese (before then he'd been fighting the Germans and Italians in the Western Desert and Italy). He was firmly convinced that the Japanese WOULD have fought on with the same fanaticism they'd shown throughout the war and that lots more lives - combatants and civilians - would have been lost. Did Hitler feel sad over the bombings of the Blitz? Do you think he or the Nazi leaders shed a single tear over Coventry? Coventry was a sustained and deliberate attack by the Luftwaffe on ccivilians and it was devastatingly effective. Almost all the casualties in that raid were civilians. The Germans would so proud of it that they coined a new verb, to 'coventrise' (can't remember what the German expression was but it was very similar) Sometimes bad things happen in war. Overall, the British and Americans did FEWER bad things than the Japanese and Germans did. And yes, sometimes in life two wrong CAN make a right IMO..
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Post by lakshmi on Mar 12, 2012 14:16:34 GMT
Omg i didnt EVER had a fight with u! Its not emotional thing only we discuss it yes? I didn't think I was fighting with either you or Anna, Tiki. We were just expressing our opinions which happen to be different. I think it was the lesser of two evils to drop the bomb; you and Anna think the opposite. That's fine. This is a discussion board and it would be pretty pointless if everyone said the same thing all the time. I've belonged to enough boards where disagreement with the 'received wisdom' of the board owners is totally discouraged. That is NEVER going to be the case here. I'm not some sort of gung-ho type who thinks zapping people is ever a GOOD idea. Sometimes, though, I think it's the lesser of two evils. Ok kewl
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Post by lakshmi on Mar 12, 2012 14:35:05 GMT
I ask again - do you seriously believe that if the Germans and/or Japanese had had the bomb they wouldn't have used it? Why its important? U better let ur enemy decide whats ur morals? Do not pay evil with evil. Its ur god that said it yes? Only u accept his words if u approve them? Civilians are not enemy i think. There better not be any rules in war? Its ok to kill women and children if there at enemy country? Its ok to rape and steal? There is honour or else dishonour in war. If enemy will do dishonourable thing then they are dishonourable. If *U* will do dishonourable thing also its still dishonourable and it will not be honourable bcz also enemy did it or MAYBE will did it. It is his opinion. If he is soldier he is not automatic expert on what will they do except in a battle. Why its important? Why its important? If they kill 150k civilians and its not necessary its war crime. I think that it was not necessary and i do not excuse it bcz MAYBE germans and japenese will do same IF its possible.
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Mar 12, 2012 22:57:25 GMT
I ask again - do you seriously believe that if the Germans and/or Japanese had had the bomb they wouldn't have used it? Why its important? U better let ur enemy decide whats ur morals? Do not pay evil with evil. Its ur god that said it yes? Only u accept his words if u approve them? Civilians are not enemy i think. There better not be any rules in war? Its ok to kill women and children if there at enemy country? Its ok to rape and steal? There is honour or else dishonour in war. If enemy will do dishonourable thing then they are dishonourable. If *U* will do dishonourable thing also its still dishonourable and it will not be honourable bcz also enemy did it or MAYBE will did it. It is his opinion. If he is soldier he is not automatic expert on what will they do except in a battle. Why its important? Why its important? If they kill 150k civilians and its not necessary its war crime. I think that it was not necessary and i do not excuse it bcz MAYBE germans and japenese will do same IF its possible. BRAVOI have to take a little break from this thread because I'm quite frankly shocked at some of the opinions! Truman was told again and again that the Japanese wouldn't surrender unless the Emperor was given immunity! Again and again Truman ( and FD Roosevelt ) ignored this and let people on both sides die needlessly!! Truman's plutocratic backers such as federal reserve boss JP Morgan Jr. was quoted as saying that if Japan surrendered before the US had the chance to drop the atomic bomb on them then they would have nothing! Bernard Baruch, who Truman appointed to run the "Atomic Energy Commission" was another plutocrat boss! Truman and his behind the scenes backers were war criminals!
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Mar 12, 2012 23:38:17 GMT
Do you really think we should have given the Japanese Emperor immunity? He certainly didn't deserve it. There is no question that he was backing the evil Japanese military all the way.
We did it as an expedient to end the war. Sticks in my craw though.
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Post by Big Lin on Mar 13, 2012 0:43:47 GMT
War criminal is a very loaded term and IMO should be used with restraint.
The Nazis at Nuremberg clearly WERE war criminals; so were the Japanese warlords.
So too (but unfortunately able to get away with it) were Stalin's mob.
I'd also put Mao and Pol Pot in the same category.
And both Sukarno and Suharto in Indonesia.
Yahya Khan in Pakistan is another.
You could also make a case for several Sri Lankan leaders.
In Europe, the Croats were the biggest war criminals but got away with it.
Second to them were the Bosnians who also got away with it.
In America, Clinton was a war criminal but got away with it.
Putin in Russia is a war criminal.
Saddam Hussein was one too.
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Post by lakshmi on Mar 13, 2012 1:10:49 GMT
U said better to use with restraint then u call every body war criminal except u excuse unnecessary murder of 150k civilians! U call clinton war criminal except not bush. I think that u use it politically
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Mar 13, 2012 14:14:19 GMT
I think the idea that Russia was going to invade Japan and save America the bother is really far fetched and not in the realm of the possible.
Russia was a bit like Germany in that they had a big motorized army with lots of tanks. Like Germany, they didn't have much of a navy, certainly not a sufficient navy to land a major invasion force in Japan.
Soviet Navy during World War II consisted of some old World War I-era ships, some modern pre-war built cruisers and destroyers, and a number of torpedo boats. They lacked aircraft carriers, landing ships, etc. In addition, most of their fleet was in the the Baltic Sea, blocked in by Finnish and German minefields and maimed by mines and air attacks. Most of the rest of their navy was bottled up on the Black sea.
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♫anna♫
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The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Mar 13, 2012 18:20:18 GMT
I think the idea that Russia was going to invade Japan and save America the bother is really far fetched and not in the realm of the possible. Russia was a bit like Germany in that they had a big motorized army with lots of tanks. Like Germany, they didn't have much of a navy, certainly not a sufficient navy to land a major invasion force in Japan. Soviet Navy during World War II consisted of some old World War I-era ships, some modern pre-war built cruisers and destroyers, and a number of torpedo boats. They lacked aircraft carriers, landing ships, etc. In addition, most of their fleet was in the the Baltic Sea, blocked in by Finnish and German minefields and maimed by mines and air attacks. Most of the rest of their navy was bottled up on the Black sea. The Russians overran Manchuria in 10 days and occupied numberous Japanese islands. Even if the Russian navy was less present there the Japanese navy and air force were virtually non-existent! The Russians could have used ferries and tankers to land an invasion force! In the Russian offensive many soldiers were parachuted into key positions!en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito QUOTE: On August 9, 1945, following the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the Soviet declaration of war, Emperor Hirohito told Kido to "quickly control the situation" because "the Soviet Union has declared war and today began hostilities against us."[30] On August 10, the cabinet drafted an "Imperial Rescript ending the War" following the Emperor's indications that the declaration did not compromise any demand which prejudiced the prerogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign Ruler.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Mar 13, 2012 18:49:10 GMT
The major weapon in the Soviet's WWII arsenal was the tank. They're big and heavy. Transporting military vehicles like that via civilian ferries wouldn't work. The Japanese mainland is at least 500 kilometers from the mainland. Russia was not going to invade Japan.
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♫anna♫
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The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Mar 14, 2012 15:36:54 GMT
The major weapon in the Soviet's WWII arsenal was the tank. They're big and heavy. Transporting military vehicles like that via civilian ferries wouldn't work. The Japanese mainland is at least 500 kilometers from the mainland. Russia was not going to invade Japan. www.theurbn.com/2010/11/kurile-islands-international-issues-domestic-affairs/ Dearest BushAdmirer, The Russians reconquered the Sakhalin island, which they lost in the Russo-Japanese war as well as the Japanese Kuril islands! With or without tanks they would have invaded mainland Japan! The Japanese surrendered primarily because of the impending invasion and not the atomic bomb!
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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karma:
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Mar 14, 2012 15:40:49 GMT
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Halsey,_Jr. Admiral William F. Halsey, Jr., Commander U.S. Third Fleet, stated publicly in 1946:The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment. . . . It was a mistake to ever drop it. . . . [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it. . . . It killed a lot of Japs, but the Japs had put out a lot of peace feelers through Russia long before. (See p. 331, Chapter 26)http://www.colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/2010/atomicdec.htm The Book "The Decision to use the Atomic Bomb" by Gar Alperovitz is very well researched. I will quote parts of this book from time to time giving the page number as I'm doing for the quote from Admiral Halsey.
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