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Post by Big Lin on Feb 22, 2009 2:43:21 GMT
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Post by Ben Lomond on Feb 22, 2009 13:56:49 GMT
A slightly over the top reaction, surely? I am not the greatest fan of the Clintons, but to be fair to the woman, she has in efffect simply stated the realistic situation. She said..."the United States will continue to press China on long standing concerns over Human Rights issues......"
America is hardly likely to go to war with China over what China considers is its own affair; and I mean that both militarily and in terms of trade. Like it or not, China is too important a player on the world stage (and too powerful) to be ignored. So apart from "pressing China on long standing concerns", what else would you have her do? Any attempts at exerting pressure on the Chinese would simply have the opposite effect to the desired one.
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Post by Big Lin on Feb 22, 2009 14:22:25 GMT
I do admit to having a deep hatred for both Bill and Hillary Clinton and sometimes my fury at their corruption and their relentless assaults on liberty during Bill's presidency make me lose it a bit.
All the same, we're still talking major league hypocrisy from people who pretend to be one thing but when you compare their attitude to, say, North Korea, with their attitude to China it's obvious that principles don't play any part in their political behaviour.
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Post by beth on Feb 22, 2009 23:37:15 GMT
I do admit to having a deep hatred for both Bill and Hillary Clinton and sometimes my fury at their corruption and their relentless assaults on liberty during Bill's presidency make me lose it a bit. All the same, we're still talking major league hypocrisy from people who pretend to be one thing but when you compare their attitude to, say, North Korea, with their attitude to China it's obvious that principles don't play any part in their political behaviour. Lin, are you sure you got your information about the Clintons from unbiased sources? When Hillary cited a "vast right wing conspiracy", she knew what she was talking about. If a part of your hatred stems from the Monica fiasco, then you'll have to dole out equal measure to other politicians who were as bad or worse. In regard to China - diplomacy is not always best served by standing on principle. Consider the venue.
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Post by Big Lin on Feb 23, 2009 0:11:37 GMT
I do admit to having a deep hatred for both Bill and Hillary Clinton and sometimes my fury at their corruption and their relentless assaults on liberty during Bill's presidency make me lose it a bit. All the same, we're still talking major league hypocrisy from people who pretend to be one thing but when you compare their attitude to, say, North Korea, with their attitude to China it's obvious that principles don't play any part in their political behaviour. Lin, are you sure you got your information about the Clintons from unbiased sources? When Hillary cited a "vast right wing conspiracy", she knew what she was talking about. If a part of your hatred stems from the Monica fiasco, then you'll have to dole out equal measure to other politicians who were as bad or worse. In regard to China - diplomacy is not always best served by standing on principle. Consider the venue. Beth, most of my information on the Clintons comes from two sources: relatives in Yugoslavia and left-wing critics of the Clintons. I don't care that much about Monica because I agree with what Jane Fonda once famously said. I'll post some links for you about the Clintons tomorrow.
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Post by Riotgrrlisnotloggedin on Feb 23, 2009 11:34:40 GMT
Just last week Obama made a comment recognising the independence of Kosovo.
I was surprised at this; he has seemed so sure-footed up until now, but this statement was clearly going to rattle the Russians (among others). I felt his best strategy would have been to continue to fudge the issue.
But it was pointed out to me that the Kosovo policy was likely to be the work of HClinton, following on her husband's stance on the issue. The Clintons are hated in Serbia obviously following the bombing of Belgrade, which was disgraceful.
I think Clinton's strategy for the Balkans will lead to a further war, perhaps within the year, as the region is still desperately unstable . . . and desperatelyl disfunctional and poor.
If I was a senior politician I would be a lot more clever about the Balkans by being a lot more equivocal.
I don't trust Clinton's instincts on this one.
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Post by Big Lin on Feb 23, 2009 13:16:19 GMT
Just last week Obama made a comment recognising the independence of Kosovo. I was surprised at this; he has seemed so sure-footed up until now, but this statement was clearly going to rattle the Russians (among others). I felt his best strategy would have been to continue to fudge the issue. But it was pointed out to me that the Kosovo policy was likely to be the work of HClinton, following on her husband's stance on the issue. The Clintons are hated in Serbia obviously following the bombing of Belgrade, which was disgraceful. I think Clinton's strategy for the Balkans will lead to a further war, perhaps within the year, as the region is still desperately unstable . . . and desperatelyl disfunctional and poor. If I was a senior politician I would be a lot more clever about the Balkans by being a lot more equivocal. I don't trust Clinton's instincts on this one. Considering that Clinton himself committed war crimes during the war of aggression against Serbia, he and Hillary have a long track record of appalling judgement on this subject. Kossovan independence is a total joke. The place couldn't survive as an independent country and it would be just one more begging bowl demanding handouts. How many Croats, Bosnians, Slovenians and Kossovans have been put on trial for war crimes? How many British and Americans have been put on trial for THEIR war crimes in Yugoslavia?
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♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Feb 24, 2009 23:00:45 GMT
If the 911 attack would have been uncovered in time due to certain "interrogation methods" being used I'm sure the overwhelming majority would be supportive of such measures! I once went to a museum in Nuremberg, which displayed torture devices used in the Inquisition and Witch Hunts to extract "confessions".. The devices of mutilation and amputation were clearly torture devices and anyone who compares such extreme and real torture to say "water boarding" defines torture very liberally.
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Post by lonewolf on Feb 25, 2009 5:34:34 GMT
principles don't play any part in their political behaviour. Politics is the science of increasing power and is not carried on for the sake of morality or principles; those virtues only come into play as political technique. The aim of politics is the increase of power and if you think otherwise then you are incredibly naïve.
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Post by Alpha Hooligan on Feb 25, 2009 23:21:31 GMT
There are many situations where torture is perfectly legitimate and acceptable.
AH
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Post by Big Lin on Feb 26, 2009 18:24:20 GMT
I'm afraid I don't agree on that one, Alpha.
I'd cheerfully execute terrorists or use deadly force against them if it was a question of saving lives but I can't go along with torture.
Maybe the spirit of my Uncle Jaime - who lost his parents, brother and sister in Auschwitz - won't let me forget what happened when a state used torture routinely.
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Post by Alpha Hooligan on Feb 26, 2009 20:35:40 GMT
Lin the regime you refer to wasn't using toture to save innocent lives...Auschwitz was never about saving lives (not even the lives of German troops)
I'll give you a "random" example of justifiable torture.
Two men abduct a child to molest and then kill, one is captured, he knows where the child is but is trying to "cut a deal" while time is running out for the child and generally laughing and saying "I have human rights" and stuff.
He is a perfectly legitimate target for torture IMO. I would bring in the torturer and I know I would have the location of the child within an hour.
The end can often justify the means.
AH
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Feb 28, 2009 2:28:31 GMT
In Germany a vice Chief of Police named Wolfgang Daschner faced charges because he threatened to use torture on a kidnapper to find the kidnapped victim, a young boy, who he believed was still alive! The kidnapper murdered the boy even before taking the ransom money.. I believe the police chief was justified in using these measures! The kidnapper fearing torture confessed to murderering his victim.. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3507315.stm
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Post by Alpha Hooligan on Feb 28, 2009 21:33:00 GMT
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Post by iamjumbo on Mar 1, 2009 18:08:40 GMT
If the 911 attack would have been uncovered in time due to certain "interrogation methods" being used I'm sure the overwhelming majority would be supportive of such measures! I once went to a museum in Nuremberg, which displayed torture devices used in the Inquisition and Witch Hunts to extract "confessions".. The devices of mutilation and amputation were clearly torture devices and anyone who compares such extreme and real torture to say "water boarding" defines torture very liberally. for sure. even our pals such as saudi arabia and others who we send trash to for extracting information don't use real torture. of course, it wouldn't matter if they did. anyone, without exception, who whines about torturing terrorists obviously doesn't care about human rights. the lunatical notion that they'd rather see several hundred people killed by a bomb in a subway station than to cause pain to a worthless piece of trash in order to prevent it, is patently absurd, as well as manifestly immoral
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Post by iamjumbo on Mar 1, 2009 18:10:20 GMT
There are many situations where torture is perfectly legitimate and acceptable. AH there is NO situation in the case of terrorists where it is not legitimate and acceptable
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Post by iamjumbo on Mar 1, 2009 18:11:32 GMT
I'm afraid I don't agree on that one, Alpha. I'd cheerfully execute terrorists or use deadly force against them if it was a question of saving lives but I can't go along with torture. Maybe the spirit of my Uncle Jaime - who lost his parents, brother and sister in Auschwitz - won't let me forget what happened when a state used torture routinely. there is NO similarity between the germans torturing innocent people, and our torturing trash
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Post by iamjumbo on Mar 1, 2009 18:13:52 GMT
Lin the regime you refer to wasn't using toture to save innocent lives...Auschwitz was never about saving lives (not even the lives of German troops) I'll give you a "random" example of justifiable torture. Two men abduct a child to molest and then kill, one is captured, he knows where the child is but is trying to "cut a deal" while time is running out for the child and generally laughing and saying "I have human rights" and stuff. He is a perfectly legitimate target for torture IMO. I would bring in the torturer and I know I would have the location of the child within an hour. The end can often justify the means. AH that is a PERFECT example. just in case he thinks about giving false information, the guarantee of constant torture until death in the event of harm to the child would be appropriate
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Post by iamjumbo on Mar 1, 2009 18:15:52 GMT
In Germany a vice Chief of Police named Wolfgang Daschner faced charges because he threatened to use torture on a kidnapper to find the kidnapped victim, a young boy, who he believed was still alive! The kidnapper murdered the boy even before taking the ransom money.. I believe the police chief was justified in using these measures! The kidnapper fearing torture confessed to murderering his victim.. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3507315.stmof course he was justified, and certainly would have been, morally, had he not carried it out. of course, since the german government is so adamantly opposed to human rights, what else would you expect of those imbeciles?
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♫anna♫
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Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Mar 11, 2009 3:52:32 GMT
I have to oppose "extreme interrogations" ( torture ) when there is no longer a chance to save a life. The commandant of Auschwitz was one the biggest war criminals in history, but the interrogation techniques were wrong in this situation because no lives could have been saved. The book the "Commandant of Auschwitz", which presented the Hoess confession was withdrawn as required reading in German schools after this book was published. Page 235 QUOTE: When they found Hoess, here is how the capture played out. Clarke, one of the participants, recalls it vividly: "He was lying on top of a three-tier bunker wearing a new pair of silk pyjamas. We discovered later that he had lost the cyanide pill most of them carried. Not that he would have had much chance to use it because we had rammed a torch (flashlight) into his mouth." Hoess screamed in terror at the mere sight of the British uniforms. Clarke yelled: "What is your name?" With each answer of "Franz Lang," Clarke's hand crashed into the face of the prisoner. The fourth time that happened, Hoess broke and admitted who he was. The admission suddenly unleashed the loathing of the Jewish sergeants in the arresting party whose parents had died in Auschwitz following an order signed by Hoess. The prisoner was torn from the top bunk, the pyjama ripped from his body. He was then dragged naked to one of the slaughter tables, where it seemed to Clarke the blows and screams were endless. Eventually, the Medical Officer urged the Captain: "Call them off, unless you want to take back a corpse." A blanket was thrown over Hoess and he was dragged to Clarke's car, where the sergeant poured a substantial slug of whiskey down his throat. Then Hoess tried to sleep. Clarke thrust his service stick under the man's eyelids and ordered in German: "Keep your pig eyes open, you swine." . . . The party arrived back at Heide around three in the morning. The snow was swirling still, but the blanket was torn from Hoess and he was made to walk completely nude through the prison yard to his cell. It took three days to get a coherent statement out of him. www.amazon.com/LEGIONS-DEATH-Enslavement-Military-Classics/dp/1844150429
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