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Post by june on Sept 1, 2010 13:34:26 GMT
Are Catholics not Christian - quick someone tell the Pope! Yes, of course - but not all Christians are Catholics. (Didn't you notice that I said 'specifically'?) I was noshing Jean.
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Post by fretslider on Sept 1, 2010 13:37:21 GMT
What do you mean by 'supporting' shari'ah? It's possible to agree with aspects of almost ANY religious or political belief. I can see the good side of Nazism and Communism even though overall I reject and hate both. In the same way I can see lots of good things in shar'iah. Anyone can focus on the negative aspects and make them out to be the ONLY aspects. I'll post more later because I'm going out shopping but basically you have to try to understand your opponent's arguments because if you don't you can't answer them properly and all you can do is shout and name-call. Most of what gets said about shari'ah and Muslims generally on this board is one of three things: totally untrue half-truths magnified into the whole truth choosing the opinions and behaviour of extremists and representing them as being mainstream. Do the Ku Klux Klan represent mainstream Christianity? Nor do the Muslim extremists. For instance, 9/11 is specifically CONTRARY to the Qur'an. So too is suicide bombing. But that's YOUR interpretation of their disgusting book.
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Post by mouse on Sept 1, 2010 14:36:53 GMT
For instance, 9/11 is specifically CONTRARY to the Qur'an. So too is suicide bombing. jihad and Ijtihad are two entirely different things ask any speaker of arabic or any scholar 9/11 is simply following on from the 7th and continuing centuries of islamic expansion suicide bombing is not suicide in the way suicide is often thought of and is permissable in the interests of islam in war...jihadist who give their life in the cause of islam are martyers convert..pay jizzyah or die has been the cry of islam throughout the centuries ""What do you mean by 'supporting' shari'ah?""" i mean no one has rushed in and told me the positivities ....frankly i can see non..because unlike communism and nazism/facism its not pick and mix..its the whole package.....you dont get to pick out the bits you agree with and leave the bits you dont agree with.....its all or nothing sharia and its rules are all set down.. lets deal with how it is not some fluffy idea we can all join hands and sing cumbyya...we cant..we never could..and we never will
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Post by Big Lin on Sept 1, 2010 16:51:29 GMT
What do you mean by 'supporting' shari'ah? It's possible to agree with aspects of almost ANY religious or political belief. I can see the good side of Nazism and Communism even though overall I reject and hate both. In the same way I can see lots of good things in shar'iah. Anyone can focus on the negative aspects and make them out to be the ONLY aspects. I'll post more later because I'm going out shopping but basically you have to try to understand your opponent's arguments because if you don't you can't answer them properly and all you can do is shout and name-call. Most of what gets said about shari'ah and Muslims generally on this board is one of three things: totally untrue half-truths magnified into the whole truth choosing the opinions and behaviour of extremists and representing them as being mainstream. Do the Ku Klux Klan represent mainstream Christianity? Nor do the Muslim extremists. For instance, 9/11 is specifically CONTRARY to the Qur'an. So too is suicide bombing. But that's YOUR interpretation of their disgusting book. No, it ISN'T, Fret. It's your OPINION that the Qur'an IS disgusting and NOT a fact. It's a FACT that suicide is specifically said in the Qur'an to be 'haram' - forbidden. It's also a FACT that 'molesting travellers' is ALSO specifically forbidden in the Qur'an. I know you prefer your bigoted lies to the truth but then, as Goethe said, 'against stupidity even the gods struggle in vain!'
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Post by fretslider on Sept 1, 2010 19:14:35 GMT
But that's YOUR interpretation of their disgusting book. No, it ISN'T, Fret. It's your OPINION that the Qur'an IS disgusting and NOT a fact. It's a FACT that suicide is specifically said in the Qur'an to be 'haram' - forbidden. It's also a FACT that 'molesting travellers' is ALSO specifically forbidden in the Qur'an. I know you prefer your bigoted lies to the truth but then, as Goethe said, 'against stupidity even the gods struggle in vain!' Have you read it? Did you understand it? I think not.
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Post by Big Lin on Sept 1, 2010 22:14:04 GMT
Fret, whether you like it or not this is MY board and not YOURS.
I have the thankless task of running it and you are making it a LOT harder than it needs to be.
I DON'T have to put up with being insulted and patronised by you or any other member.
I've seen people BANNED from other forums for less than the rudeness and violations of TOS you regularly pull here.
Well, enough is enough! I might be a liberal-minded person who leans over backwards to be fair to anyone but at the end of the day I have my limits.
You've crossed the line once too often and I'm putting you on a 10% warning level.
As for your question, I have not only read the Qur'an but also many Islamic scholars (many of them female, by the way) but I have also LIVED in two Muslim countries, Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
How many have YOU lived in?
You are too arrogant to understand anything and too prejudiced to be able to tell the difference between lies and truths.
Enough is enough!
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Post by fretslider on Sept 1, 2010 22:19:44 GMT
Fret, whether you like it or not this is MY board and not YOURS. I have the thankless task of running it and you are making it a LOT harder than it needs to be. I DON'T have to put up with being insulted and patronised by you or any other member. I've seen people BANNED from other forums for less than the rudeness and violations of TOS you regularly pull here. Well, enough is enough! I might be a liberal-minded person who leans over backwards to be fair to anyone but at the end of the day I have my limits. You've crossed the line once too often and I'm putting you on a 10% warning level. As for your question, I have not only read the Qur'an but also many Islamic scholars (many of them female, by the way) but I have also LIVED in two Muslim countries, Turkey and Saudi Arabia. How many have YOU lived in? You are too arrogant to understand anything and too prejudiced to be able to tell the difference between lies and truths. Enough is enough! I don't recall saying this is 'my board'. If you think you have been insulted, show me where.
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Post by mouse on Sept 2, 2010 6:04:48 GMT
But that's YOUR interpretation of their disgusting book. No, it ISN'T, Fret. It's your OPINION that the Qur'an IS disgusting and NOT a fact. It's a FACT that suicide is specifically said in the Qur'an to be 'haram' - forbidden. It's also a FACT that 'molesting travellers' is ALSO specifically forbidden in the Qur'an. ' the koran is a book..suposedly the unalterable word of god..full of contradiction,,with no beging and no end,,, suicide may indeed be haram but self destruction in the way of allah is not...for to die for allah is to become a martyer which begs the question when is suicide..suicide a suicide bomber is a warrior in islamic parlence...it is the west who has defined individuals who die during the carrying out of the deaths of others as suicide.... as for not molesting travelers...how is that relevent..and of course the raiding of camel trains comes under molestation of travelers i would have thought sharia.......Muslim or Islamic law, both civil and criminal justice as well as regulating individual conduct both personal and moral.
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Post by Big Lin on Sept 2, 2010 13:46:26 GMT
Fret, I'll refer you to what you said.
You asked if I'd READ the Qur'an when you know perfectly well that I've said so many times.
By implication at least, you're calling me a LIAR.
You then asked if I'd understood it which is:
a) arrogant because it implies that only YOU can possibly understand it
b) patronising because it implies that I'm too stupid to understand it.
On top of that it's been the culmination of a few months when you've been behaving in a steadily more and more uncontrollable way.
I invited you to join this board because I'd seen great posts by you elsewhere.
I didn't have any reason to regret my decision till recently.
Lately you've been getting into unnecessary fights all over the place, chucking buckets of abuse at all and sundry, becoming so arrogant that anyone who disagrees with you is either labelled a fool or worse.
Enough is enough!
Even when I told you to STOP you mouthed back at me.
I've had enough!
You know how much I hate disciplining people and I've probably let far too much stuff go on this board already because I'm like that.
Even so, there are limits.
When I say 'this is my board' what I mean is NOT that it's some private fan club where only views that agree with my own can be put forward.
What I mean is that IF - and I hardly ever DO - I tell off a member I expect them to just accept what I say.
Think of me as a referee in a football match, Fret.
I've just given you a yellow card.
Now that ought to be the end of it because otherwise things will escalate.
I'm sure neither of us wants that to happen.
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Post by Big Lin on Sept 2, 2010 13:50:10 GMT
No, it ISN'T, Fret. It's your OPINION that the Qur'an IS disgusting and NOT a fact. It's a FACT that suicide is specifically said in the Qur'an to be 'haram' - forbidden. It's also a FACT that 'molesting travellers' is ALSO specifically forbidden in the Qur'an. ' the koran is a book..suposedly the unalterable word of god..full of contradiction,,with no beging and no end,,, suicide may indeed be haram but self destruction in the way of allah is not...for to die for allah is to become a martyer which begs the question when is suicide..suicide a suicide bomber is a warrior in islamic parlence...it is the west who has defined individuals who die during the carrying out of the deaths of others as suicide.... as for not molesting travelers...how is that relevent..and of course the raiding of camel trains comes under molestation of travelers i would have thought sharia.......Muslim or Islamic law, both civil and criminal justice as well as regulating individual conduct both personal and moral. Again, Mouse, you are stating things that are NOT TRUE. Suicide IS haram and that INCLUDES suicide in the name of Allah. A suicide bomber is NOT a warrior and MOST Muslims CONDEMN suicide bombing and believe that it IS haram. You are deliberately choosing to believe that the opinions of a tiny MINORITY of heretics - who CLAIM to be Muslims but are actually NOT - represent the mainstream.
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Post by mouse on Sept 2, 2010 14:38:05 GMT
cAgain, Mouse, you are stating things that are NOT TRUE. Suicide IS haram and that INCLUDES suicide in the name of Allah. A suicide bomber is NOT a warrior and MOST Muslims CONDEMN suicide bombing and believe that it IS haram. You are deliberately choosing to believe that the opinions of a tiny MINORITY of heretics - who CLAIM to be Muslims but are actually NOT - represent the mainstream. what most muslims condem ?i hear silence not mass cindemnation...silence is not condemnation..a few voices is not majority condemnation what they condem is the random slaughter of the suicide bomber...not the act of dying for islam i am not deliberately trying to believe the opinion of a small minority...who CLAIM to be muslim....I believe what i see in action...what i see around the planet...all the way around the planet and far from being heritic they believe in the fundementals of islam and not such a small minority.... they are the action men of islam..acting in the way the prophet and his companians acted..acting in the way muslims who aquired the islamic empire acted....following exactly the same manifesto """Again, Mouse, you are stating things that are NOT TRUE."""" i am stating as much truth as you are Lin...agreed suicide ie the taking of ones own life is haram the dying for islam and the furtherence of islam..or in the protection of fellow muslims is NOT haram....the justification is in the INTENT...and if you read what you first posted you will see that INTENT is very much valued in islam....infact intent is a point of law...islam is very clear on this now i can see why a scholar may debate this...he would argue that random killings by a suicide bomber is haram in that it is self defeating because it gives islam a bad name...and the bomber was aware that he would be committing suicide to achieve the random killings another scholar would say the bomber is a martyer in the cause of islam as ever islam has two answers...so for you to say i am wrong and you are right is a nonsence.....the reality is that in to days world suicide bombers are given the staus of martyers by many many muslims..clerics..immans etc ...fact of life just as with the cartoons...the danish cartoonist is under death threat,,yet the muslims who ADDED their own cartoons are regarded as heroic for standing up for the prophet[intention being every thing] there is no reasoning...its all about intent
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Post by mouse on Sept 2, 2010 14:40:30 GMT
mmm...bit like the channel four undecover mosque....were errr mainstream...yeah right..... very moderate
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Post by june on Sept 2, 2010 15:41:38 GMT
Lin
Just wondering why Gabriel can screech all sorts of personal abuse at me and fret and then receives an apology from you and my thread moved yet fret gets threats of banning for a rAther innocuous (and fret like) remark.
That does seem rather inconsistent at the least.
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Post by Big Lin on Sept 2, 2010 16:52:52 GMT
mmm...bit like the channel four undecover mosque....were errr mainstream...yeah right..... very moderate NO ONE is DENYING that extremists exist. The point is that they ARE extremists and NOT mainstream. For goodness sake let's try and see some intellectual honesty here instead of blind prejudice and comments based on ignorance!
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Post by Big Lin on Sept 2, 2010 16:55:27 GMT
I sometimes wonder if too many people on this board suffer from the delusion that they are always right and anyone who disagrees with them MUST be wrong.
It doesn't matter that even when someone who knows MORE about the subject than them puts them straight on FACTUAL mistakes - THEY know best.
They can't tell the difference between their own opinions and prejudices and facts!
I'm getting sick and tired of it and if things don't change I'm seriously thinking about chucking the whole thing in!
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Post by june on Sept 2, 2010 17:35:52 GMT
mmm...bit like the channel four undecover mosque....were errr mainstream...yeah right..... very moderate NO ONE is DENYING that extremists exist. The point is that they ARE extremists and NOT mainstream. For goodness sake let's try and see some intellectual honesty here instead of blind prejudice and comments based on ignorance! Good post Lin and well said!
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Post by mouse on Sept 2, 2010 20:26:45 GMT
I sometimes wonder if too many people on this board suffer from the delusion that they are always right and anyone who disagrees with them MUST be wrong. It doesn't matter that even when someone who knows MORE about the subject than them puts them straight on FACTUAL mistakes - THEY know best. They can't tell the difference between their own opinions and prejudices and facts!! i can give you literally hours and hours of facts...historical and contempory.....i will not as it would be un-utterably boring and why do you think you are right and i am wrong... why do you think you are right and 1400yrs of history is wrong why do you think you are right and exmuslims are wrong any way i am off for the rest of the weekend...time for sea and some [hopes] sun
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