|
Post by Big Lin on Aug 30, 2010 16:00:13 GMT
Shari'ah
I'm going to explain briefly the four components of shari'ah - the first and most important is the Qur'an, second in importance being the hadiths. The third is ijma' - consensus - and the fourth ijtihad - reason.
Ijma' occurs through shura - consultation - and in the early days of the religion this literally meant EVERY Muslim talking about disputed legal and ethical points. As Islam spread that became impractical, so ijma' was achieved by the scholars and imams of Islam discussing tricky issues.
Ijtihad lays a DUTY on Muslim to think for themselves. Simply accepting the word of an imam is WRONG. Taqlid - blindly following another - is specifically CONDEMNED in the Qur'an.
Halal means 'permitted' and it is divided in turn into 'wajih' - mandatory - 'manduh' - recommended - 'mubah' - permitted through silence - and 'makauh' - disapproved of but NOT condemned or 'haram' - forbidden. In most Muslim countries, for instance, smoking is makauh - disapproved of but halal - permitted. In Iran, by contrast, it IS haram - forbidden.
There is also the concept of 'ijtihan' - the public good. That enables things which are haram - forbidden - to be overruled in the interests of the public good. So, for example, a sick person may break the Ramadan fast, or a woman show her body to a male doctor if necessary.
Ijma' frequently involves appeal to precedent and arguments from analogy. Istihan leads, even among Muslim imams and scholars, to huge disagreements. The idea that shari'ah is a monolithic body of doctrine on which all true Muslims agree is simply a paranoid fantasy.
The condemnation, in the Qur'an itself, of taqlid - blind obedience - and the laying on of ijtihad - thinking for yourself - as a positive DUTY is very instructive. Blind faith and fanaticism are specifically CONDEMNED in the Qur'an (and in shari'ah as a whole, particularly in the 'sunnahs' - the Qur'an and hadiths together). By contrast, independent thought is praised, encouraged and indeed DEMANDED of the true Muslim.
|
|
|
Post by firedancer on Aug 30, 2010 18:36:36 GMT
Thank you for the lesson Lin. It's a good thing to educate us lesser MB beings (only joking). Some queries. So that would include women as well I presume? Which, I imagine excludes women. So why do Muslims generally seem to follow the Quaran or Hadiths rather slavishly? And if they are supposed to think for themselves why is there any need for 'wajih' - or haram? If the Quaran condemns taqlid those then wajih and haram surely become superfluous, especially if independent thought is DEMANDED as you say. I am sure you will have good answer to these - just maybe not ones that I personally find convincing. (This is not anti-Islam by the way - I am merely demonstrating the independent thought Islam approves of). I could provide a similar list of questions for any religion.
|
|
|
Post by june on Aug 30, 2010 20:01:15 GMT
women can and are scholars, they even appear on radio 4!
|
|
|
Post by firedancer on Aug 30, 2010 20:43:39 GMT
Gosh, wow. Who'd have thunk it? I believe they are actually allowed to lead prayers too - but only for women of course. Couldn't have them leading prayers for men now could we?
|
|
|
Post by june on Aug 30, 2010 20:53:08 GMT
Gosh, wow. Who'd have thunk it? I believe they are actually allowed to lead prayers too - but only for women of course. Couldn't have them leading prayers for men now could we? Yes, almost as backward as the Catholic Church......
|
|
|
Post by june on Aug 30, 2010 21:03:19 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Big Lin on Aug 30, 2010 22:13:39 GMT
Thank you for the lesson Lin. It's a good thing to educate us lesser MB beings (only joking). Some queries. So that would include women as well I presume? Which, I imagine excludes women. So why do Muslims generally seem to follow the Quaran or Hadiths rather slavishly? And if they are supposed to think for themselves why is there any need for 'wajih' - or haram? If the Quaran condemns taqlid those then wajih and haram surely become superfluous, especially if independent thought is DEMANDED as you say. I am sure you will have good answer to these - just maybe not ones that I personally find convincing. (This is not anti-Islam by the way - I am merely demonstrating the independent thought Islam approves of). I could provide a similar list of questions for any religion. So that would include women as well I presume?Yes, there are quite a few female imams and scholars. As with Christianity and Judaism, there are MANY Muslim subdivisions and points of view. Which, I imagine excludes women.No, again women are permitted to take part and are regarded as Islamic scholars and imams. Once again it depends on the cultural background rather than on the religious aspects. So why do Muslims generally seem to follow the Quaran or Hadiths rather slavishly? And if they are supposed to think for themselves why is there any need for 'wajih' - or haram?
If the Quaran condemns taqlid those then wajih and haram surely become superfluous, especially if independent thought is DEMANDED as you say.Why do Christians behave badly? Why do fundamentalist Christians follow the Bible slavishly? As to your question about thinking for themselves - in the first place it's easier for people NOT to think for themselves and to follow some persuasive spiritual leader; secondly, a lot of power trip types TRY to manipulate Muslims through becoming imams. Sunnis in general (except the Wahhabi lot) are MORE inclined to think independently than Shiahs. Largely for historical reasons imams in the Shiite faith tend to wield greater power.
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Aug 31, 2010 6:43:36 GMT
theres quite a telling verse in the koran along the lines of...""""do not ask question if you think you wont like the answer"" and in regard to women....regardless of the koran.... in law their word is not equal to that of a man
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Aug 31, 2010 7:14:57 GMT
am not too sure exactly what the point of the thread is..sharia is a huge subject...law always is...exactly what aspects are we looking at or are we looking at all aspects ?? are we looking at what happens when sharia is applied or how it relates to women
According to the Sharia, despite declarations of the equality of the sexes before God, women are considered inferior to men, and have fewer rights and responsibilities.
A woman counts as half a man in giving evidence in a court of law, or in matters of inheritance. Her position is less advantageous than a man’s with regard to marriage and divorce. A husband has the moral and religious right and duty to beat his wives for disobedience or for perceived misconduct. A woman does not have the right to choose her husband, or her place of residence, to travel freely or have freedom in her choice of clothing. Women have little or no autonomy and are deemed to need the protection of their fathers, husbands or other male relatives throughout their lives. Any conduct that undermines the idea of male supremacy will fall foul of the Sharia.
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Aug 31, 2010 7:25:34 GMT
or theres this..which is pretty concise,,as to the position of women
from the koran ... "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities which God hath gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God hath of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness ye have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, AND SCOURGE THEM: but if they are obedient to you then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, S. 4:34
Your wives are as A TILTH unto you; so approach YOUR TILTH when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe." S. 2:223.
and in the HADITHS said to be the sayings of the PROPHET MOHAMMED HIMSELF
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2142)
AND
Narrated Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab: Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, HE (the Prophet) GAVE PERMISSION TO BEAT THEM. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2141)
and Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "If a man invites his wife to sleep with him and she refuses to come to him, then the angels send their curses on her till morning." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 122)
and
Narrated Qays ibn Sa'd: I went to al-Hirah and saw them (the people) prostrating themselves before a satrap of theirs, so I said: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) has most right to have prostration made before him. When I came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him), I said: I went to al-Hirah and saw them prostrating themselves before a satrap of theirs, but you have most right, Apostle of Allah, to have (people) prostrating themselves before you. He said: Tell me, if you were to pass my grave, would you prostrate yourself before it? I said: No. He then said: Do not do so. If I were to command anyone to make prostration before another I WOULD COMMAND WOMEN TO PROSTRATE THEMSELVES BEFORE THEIR HUSBANDS, because of the special right over them given to husbands by Allah. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2135)
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Aug 31, 2010 7:31:08 GMT
here is the bibles take....[as comparrisons are so often made in discussion on islam]
"Husbands, love your wives, JUST AS Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church - for we are members of his body. 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' This is a profound mystery - but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife AS HE LOVES HIMSELF, and the wife must respect her husband." Ephesians 5:25-33
AND
"Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. IN THE SAME WAY, the husband's body does not belong to him alone BUT ALSO TO HIS WIFE. Do not deprive each other except by MUTUAL consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." 1 Corinthians 7:1-5
|
|
|
Post by jean on Aug 31, 2010 8:30:35 GMT
St Paul also said:
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord...As the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing"
(Ephesians 5: 22-24)
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Aug 31, 2010 8:43:44 GMT
St Paul also said: "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord...As the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing" (Ephesians 5: 22-24) of course he did...but you missed off the injunction to husbands....and i only put the christian side because in every thread about islam we get ""ah but the wicked christians did this that or t,other......
|
|
|
Post by jean on Aug 31, 2010 9:53:32 GMT
i only put the christian side because in every thread about islam we get ""ah but the wicked christians did this that or t,other...... So, start a thread about how bad Christianity is - nobody here ever does, for some reason - and then we can all counter with examples of Islamic badness. How about that?
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Aug 31, 2010 10:05:23 GMT
i only put the christian side because in every thread about islam we get ""ah but the wicked christians did this that or t,other...... So, start a thread about how bad Christianity is - nobody here ever does, for some reason - and then we can all counter with examples of Islamic badness. How about that? lol..thats pretty pathetic christianity is always portrayed as bad...when it comes to comparrisons...almost as though it justifys islam and its practises i have no intention of starting a thread on the subject....if you want to go ahead... now how about you coment on sharia which is what the thread is about..
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Aug 31, 2010 10:29:15 GMT
i only put the christian side because in every thread about islam we get ""ah but the wicked christians did this that or t,other...... So, start a thread about how bad Christianity is - nobody here ever does, for some reason - and then we can all counter with examples of Islamic badness. How about that? Do you wear a burka, Jean? "Re: Pope facing arrest if he visits Britain « Reply #6 on Apr 19, 2010, 9:26pm » that fucking old bastard was all for covering that child molesting shit up to "protect the church's good reputation" .. freakin criminal behavior and quite eye opening ... eff the pope and his armies of child molestors .." Perhaps you should read a bit more
|
|
|
Post by Big Lin on Aug 31, 2010 13:37:01 GMT
theres quite a telling verse in the koran along the lines of...""""do not ask question if you think you wont like the answer"" and in regard to women....regardless of the koran.... in law their word is not equal to that of a man You are confusing male chauvinist legal practice with shari'ah.
|
|
|
Post by Big Lin on Aug 31, 2010 13:38:11 GMT
Fret, I'm not happy with the tone of your post on this thread. I'm offering you the chance to modify it yourself or I'll have to do it for you.
Please try to keep to the terms of service.
Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by firedancer on Aug 31, 2010 14:13:14 GMT
Thanks Lin. As I said I am not convinced....especially as you countered my question on Islam with Christians behaving badly, which is no answer as your post was about Shariah. As I said, if Muslims are supposed to think for themselves there should be no need for edicts about anything being mandatory or forbidden.
As to Catholicism, I have no time for it. It is as bad as Islam in its attitude to women.
They are just different sorts of bad. Fundamental protestantism sucks too.
In fact, I cannot think of any organised religion I would give the time of day to. While individual followers may be very worthy people, when you turn to organised religion and its leaders whether it be mosque or church there is far too much cant, far too much dogma, far too much hypocrisy, far too much earthly wealth (often), far too little empathy and far too little genuine compassion.
Spirituality for me is better served by a walk in the woods, watching a bee collect pollen from a sunflower, playing with a child or helping those in need.
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Aug 31, 2010 14:13:44 GMT
theres quite a telling verse in the koran along the lines of...""""do not ask question if you think you wont like the answer"" and in regard to women....regardless of the koran.... in law their word is not equal to that of a man You are confusing male chauvinist legal practice with shari'ah. what ?are we talking about sharia law ??or are we re-interpretating sharia and arabic and islam in general According to the Sharia, despite declarations of the equality of the sexes before God, women are considered inferior to men, and have fewer rights and responsibilities. A woman counts as half a man in giving evidence in a court of law, or in matters of inheritance. Her position is less advantageous than a man’s with regard to marriage and divorce. A husband has the moral and religious right and duty to beat his wives for disobedience or for perceived misconduct. A woman does not have the right to choose her husband, or her place of residence, to travel freely or have freedom in her choice of clothing. Women have little or no autonomy and are deemed to need the protection of their fathers, husbands or other male relatives throughout their lives. Any conduct that undermines the idea of male supremacy will fall foul of the Sharia.
|
|