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Post by mouse on Mar 27, 2010 9:46:05 GMT
Riotgrrl said, "Trade Unions have a proud heritage of standing up for the working man and woman, and preventing rip-off employers treating them like slaves. " That's not my observation Riotgrrl. Our trade unions tend to be corrupt and self serving in the best case, mafia owned and controlled in the worst case (and I think the latter more common). Gullible union members elect rodents time after time. Read up on the American Teamsters union if you need more details. The rodents who own and operate the unions are out for themselves. They put up a false front suggesting that they care about the working man but it's just a facade. The world would be better off if labor unions were to be outlawed worldwide. They're a plague on our economies. while what you say is true...and many of our uk trade unions leaders were in the pay of russia[[the late jack jones the latest to be unmasked] there is no doubt that the idea of trade unions/collective barganing was very much needed..which of course why trade unions came into being as i said earlier just because a group take some thing to excess it doesnt stop some thing being a damned good idea and yes i have in the past read quite a lot about the teamster and their ways but to say unions are not needed is to presume all employers are fair minded...which of course they are not
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Post by Big Lin on Mar 27, 2010 13:33:52 GMT
Yes, this thread is getting slightly overheated. This is supposed to be a debate about healthcare and NOT a question about whether or not Democrats and/or Republicans are stupid and evil. It's also NOT supposed to be a place to bash other posters.
I'd like it if people could return to discussing the issues please and slam the post rather than the poster.
Thank you.
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Post by Big Lin on Mar 27, 2010 14:12:15 GMT
Riotgrrl said, "Trade Unions have a proud heritage of standing up for the working man and woman, and preventing rip-off employers treating them like slaves. " That's not my observation Riotgrrl. Our trade unions tend to be corrupt and self serving in the best case, mafia owned and controlled in the worst case (and I think the latter more common). Gullible union members elect rodents time after time. Read up on the American Teamsters union if you need more details. The rodents who own and operate the unions are out for themselves. They put up a false front suggesting that they care about the working man but it's just a facade. The world would be better off if labor unions were to be outlawed worldwide. They're a plague on our economies. The trouble is that the unions HAD to turn to the Mafia because they were being so blatantly oppressed by the bosses - including employers' violence and even murder - that they ended up being forced to fight fire with fire. As we all know, if you dip your hands in tar you're going to get black. On the other hand, what else could they have done? It's a great tragedy that American unions didn't follow the path of the Wobblie (IWW - International Workers of the World) rather than getting in bed with the Mafia.
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Post by mouse on Mar 27, 2010 14:48:42 GMT
not much to chose between the mafia and the IWW...both are totally unsavoury but any one who thinks unions are not needed is living in la la land employers like worker representatives are a mixture of the good the bad and the down right nasty one hears a great deal of critial coment about paternalistic capitalism....but theres a lot to be said for it...the cadburies,,rowntrees and levers did have on the whole the workers interests at heart..BUT only on their terms or way of thinking..and they did look after their workers BUT it had the draw back of not making their workers exactly independent..and of course housing was tied to the workers job... some empoyers had absolutely no concern for their workers and today we see exactly the same mindset in many large firms and corporations.......where proffit is all that matters and to hell with ethics or responsibilities....and of course the same applys equaly to some workers who would happily rip off their employers no matter how good those employers may be for eg..the amount of theft and advantage taking in the NHS is appalling... one of the reasons nationalised industries didnt do as well as private industries was the mindset of some[not all] of the workers and when it came to taking the persistence council workers were notorious...of course they have now been privatised and are paying the price in conditions and pay
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Post by clemiethedog on Mar 27, 2010 15:09:08 GMT
My maternal grandfather got his head bashed in by Henry Ford's goons druing the battle at the overpass at the Ford Rouge Plant. Corporations used some of the most bloodthursty thugs against the collective bargaining process. Now they hire Republicans to restrict or hinder employee rights.
Snide comments usually ignite flame wars. Which has to be the ultimate goal for those who use them.
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Post by pumpkinette on Mar 27, 2010 20:30:21 GMT
My maternal grandfather got his head bashed in by Henry Ford's goons druing the battle at the overpass at the Ford Rouge Plant. Corporations used some of the most bloodthursty thugs against the collective bargaining process. Now they hire Republicans to restrict or hinder employee rights. Snide comments usually ignite flame wars. Which has to be the ultimate goal for those who use them. I won't quit using sarcasm. It's not against the rules and I'm good at using it (if I say so myself). I could go further and use a bunch of swear words, etc. I won't do that. I also won't quit questioning those who think ANY 1 group can't do any wrong and willfully ignore/deny, rationalize any evil the group does.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Mar 27, 2010 20:40:04 GMT
Would it be better if I would say "intellectually challenged" instead of "morons?"
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Post by pumpkinette on Mar 28, 2010 14:20:01 GMT
Would it be better if I would say "intellectually challenged" instead of "morons?" 1 of the things I love about you is that you're a TRUE GENTLEMAN! You and I disagree HUGELY on Dubya, but not once have you called me any names, etc., thank God. You also don't think me using sarcasm to make points is some personal attack either! You don't make ASS-umptions that because I have NO use for this new healthcare reform that that automatically means I don't wany ANY healthcare reform. I'm convinced you're 100% wrong about Dubya and willfully believe that way despite the many proofs presented on here, BUT you don't lash out at people or ASS-ume stuff about them from that.
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Post by beth on Mar 28, 2010 14:36:04 GMT
Laura, did you ever stop to think how much others might appreciate it if you took a cue from das and did not make personal attacks, either? Just sayin' . . . . .
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Post by iamjumbo on Mar 28, 2010 15:26:22 GMT
Would it be better if I would say "intellectually challenged" instead of "morons?" no
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Mar 29, 2010 0:45:55 GMT
Thank you Pumpinette.
The challenge is this: How do you take strong positions without being overbearing? How do you shoot down idiocy without being perceived as arrogant? How do you tell someone they're totally wrong without making them think you consider them stupid?
As you may have noticed, I'm outnumbered here. For example, I really do genuinely admire George W. Bush. I think he's one of the greatest Presidents we've ever had. That's why I chose the Bush Admirer handle. I also believe that Bill Clinton was our worst ever President ranking just below Richard Nixon on the Presidential ladder. Obama is not a bad President when rated along side Clinton, but a mediocre President when rated along side GW Bush. Everything is relative.
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Post by beth on Mar 29, 2010 2:00:36 GMT
Das, in many ways you're an OK guy, and you ARE outnumbered and we DO pile on sometimes. But, by virtue of genes or environment, you have a blind side that does not seem to allow you to see beyond a particular ideology - even though I have to believe you would not, normally, have a lot of patience with that strange part of the Republican base that leans toward tea parties, domestic terrorism, former dixiecrats and Sarah Palin. For the sake of us all, I hope nothing worse happens to anyone at the hands of the loonies, egged on by Beck, Palin, Bachman, Rush and assorted others. The current hue and cry has less to do with any concerns about health care than it does with a witch hunt to try to oust Obama from office and retake the Fed.. So, keep your illusions while you can, and, I, personally, hope nothing happens to send you tumbling off your cloud.
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Post by pumpkinette on Mar 29, 2010 14:50:53 GMT
Laura, did you ever stop to think how much others might appreciate it if you took a cue from das and did not make personal attacks, either? Just sayin' . . . . . Not 1 WORD of anything I've said in this thread was deleted by staff. Please direct your advice to the 1's who DID have vicious words taken out by staff.
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Post by pumpkinette on Mar 29, 2010 14:52:46 GMT
Thank you Pumpinette. The challenge is this: How do you take strong positions without being overbearing? How do you shoot down idiocy without being perceived as arrogant? How do you tell someone they're totally wrong without making them think you consider them stupid? As you may have noticed, I'm outnumbered here. For example, I really do genuinely admire George W. Bush. I think he's one of the greatest Presidents we've ever had. That's why I chose the Bush Admirer handle. I also believe that Bill Clinton was our worst ever President ranking just below Richard Nixon on the Presidential ladder. Obama is not a bad President when rated along side Clinton, but a mediocre President when rated along side GW Bush. Everything is relative. I'm also outnumbered here, for reasons different than yours. But, that's FINE with me. I'd rather be outnumbered than go along with people who don't seem to have ANY outrage at REPEATED evils done by the leaders they not only VOTE for but also excuse, rationalize and willfully ignore their evils. The same goes for WHOLE political parties.
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