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Post by mouse on Feb 22, 2010 8:40:52 GMT
any one remember things can only get better
Blair wanted us to believe that "things can only get better" in 1997, but where are we now?
Economy 'set to shrink faster'
Jobless total at 12-year high
Public borrowing at record levels
of course blair only had one property at that stage...now he has 9 and is worth millions
didnt he do well
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Post by mouse on Feb 22, 2010 8:46:40 GMT
so here we are out of work up to our eyeballs indebt facing another recession [although i didnt realise we were out of the first one yet
so where oh where do we go from here...do we climb out of the mud or do we sink down further.. they do say cometh the hour cometh the man...so far no one is on the horizen that looks remotely capable
wonder if the ravens have left the tower or if drakes drum has beaten its slow message
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Post by Ben Lomond on Feb 22, 2010 13:49:21 GMT
My dilemma is that while I have supported the conservatives all my life, I see nothing in the present conservative leadership to fill me with any confidence that they will be any better than Labour. Cameron must realise that the core tory support base is less than interested in the rights of gays in Africa, nor do we want to see local constituency parties told who they must adopt as their candidate from a list imposed on them from central office; a list which, of course, favours gays, ethnic minorities and females. We get enough "top down" government from Labour!
For the first time, I am becoming a floating voter. And I never thought I would say that.
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Post by mouse on Feb 22, 2010 14:01:45 GMT
yup..i think i too will be a floater...i cannot see my self voting for cameron as leader but on the other hand first get a change of gov and then change the leadership is one ay i am thinking...unless a good independent comes along and even then thats a bit dodgy..because a return of labour and we wont have a country that is remotely rekonisable to vote for and then i think it would be time to cut losses and leave...we have talked this over as a family..and while i probably would stay i would certainly encourage the rest to leave
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 22, 2010 14:30:13 GMT
Cameron must realise that the core tory support base is less than interested in the rights of gays in Africa. He does, Ned and you are correct about the core vote, but the 'core' vote is not big enough to win a general election now. No matter who won in the 70s, 80s it is about to electorate that they need to win over now. Appealing to your core vote will simply not work, because they already are in the bag. You need to gain votes from people who see you as the 'nasty party'. IDS, Howard, Hague came from the traditional hard core Tories and sunk without trace in the polls. Although the Tory faithfull, who would vote for a bladder on a stick as long as it had a blue rossette on found them popular, they were hated in the general elecorate. Wining your heartlands by a doubling majority, as Labour found out during the eighties, will not win you power. You need a broad base of support. In fact when Cameron moves to the Right, we see the edges of that support drop away somewhat. They have to keep the Right of the Country onside of course, by offering them the odd sop, but the next election will be fought on the centre ground. Despite the bleating from the Tories, they will not defect tp UKIP/BNP etc, they will rejoin the fold as usual.
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Post by Big Lin on Feb 23, 2010 1:16:23 GMT
I've always been a floating voter.
To me, that's being an intelligent voter.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2010 7:41:55 GMT
I was half-wavering towards voting Conservative for the first time in my life, until the announcement that the Tories would be offering shares in the nationalised banks as a "reward" to taxpayers. What an absolutely appalling idea. Apart from the fact that we already all have a share in these, before long we will find the banks in French (or Spanish, or American) ownership, as have many of the privatised utilities.
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Post by fretslider on Feb 23, 2010 8:36:14 GMT
I've always been a floating voter. To me, that's being an intelligent voter. To me this is the most undemocratic of systems. From the electoral dictatorship through to the basic lack of rights for the people. And there is no sign of any change, its just not 'on offer'. In any other country people like Derek Conway would not have served a three year period of notice and been able to look forward to a handsome pay-off on leaving. What was that about intelligent voters?
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Post by mouse on Feb 23, 2010 9:35:23 GMT
personally i dont like floating voting..BUT this time it is up for consideration by me a good independent or the ed..but whether either will be standing in our area i dont as yet know..our area had always been con but a couple of large estates were built and it altered the demographics to lab...but the majority was well down last time at least the BNP have never shown faces so thats a plus to be honest though i would rather vote con and change the leadership to ..david davis or hague.....theres just some thing about cameron i dont care for..and its not about where he went to school or his background etc ,
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 23, 2010 13:56:34 GMT
to be honest though i would rather vote con and change the leadership to ..david davis or hague And people wonder why I describe the Tories as scum? The Tory voters have bleated endlessly about about the 'unelected' nature of Gordon Brown, claiming that some kind of constitutional crisis has occured. They have been going on and on about this since Brown became Prime Minister. They have made all sorts of stupid claims and DEMANDED an election. However, now that they feel that they can gain power, they can remove an elected prime minister and replace him with a Party hack! All of a sudden their objections will be dropped? Nothing more than political dung beetles, saying one thing to gain power and then dropping it when the win. TYPICAL TORY.
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 23, 2010 14:01:14 GMT
What an absolutely appalling idea. Apart from the fact that we already all have a share in these, before long we will find the banks in French (or Spanish, or American) ownership, as have many of the privatised utilities. Not only that, but selling these shares via demutalisation to carpet baggers is exactly the reason our banking is in a mess. The Tories are driven by greed, nothing more, nothing less.
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Post by fretslider on Feb 23, 2010 14:04:57 GMT
to be honest though i would rather vote con and change the leadership to ..david davis or hague And people wonder why I describe the Tories as scum? The Tory voters have bleated endlessly about about the 'unelected' nature of Gordon Brown, claiming that some kind of constitutional crisis has occured. They have been going on and on about this since Brown became Prime Minister. They have made all sorts of stupid claims and DEMANDED an election. However, now that they feel that they can gain power, they can remove an elected prime minister and replace him with a Party hack! All of a sudden their objections will be dropped? Nothing more than political dung beetles, saying one thing to gain power and then dropping it when the win. TYPICAL TORY. Tories as scum, RV? All of the parties within the system are as you describe. Tories, Labour, Libs, UKIP, BNP ALL of them, anti-democratic snouts in the trough. Not a one of them advocates real democracy and government of the people by the people for the people. Oh and by the way, Gordon is looking after his friends in the square mile just like the Tories do. TYPICAL TORY AND LABOUR - there ain't any real difference.
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 23, 2010 14:30:23 GMT
All of the parties within the system are as you describe. Tories, Labour, Libs, UKIP, BNP ALL of them, anti-democratic snouts in the trough. Perhaps that is true, but the Tories have attempted to claim the moral high ground on this issue and tthen the truth comes out in the end. Not a one of them advocates real democracy and government of the people by the people for the people. Difficult to achieve though isn't it? Of course there is more 'people power' than you let on. Oh and by the way, Gordon is looking after his friends in the square mile just like the Tories do. Agree with you 100% on that. TYPICAL TORY AND LABOUR - there ain't any real difference. When push comes to shove, perhaps you are right, but there are good reasons for that as well?
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Post by fretslider on Feb 23, 2010 14:40:51 GMT
All of the parties within the system are as you describe. Tories, Labour, Libs, UKIP, BNP ALL of them, anti-democratic snouts in the trough. Perhaps that is true, but the Tories have attempted to claim the moral high ground on this issue and tthen the truth comes out in the end. Difficult to achieve though isn't it? Of course there is more 'people power' than you let on. Agree with you 100% on that. TYPICAL TORY AND LABOUR - there ain't any real difference. When push comes to shove, perhaps you are right, but there are good reasons for that as well? All of them claim the moral high ground, the Tories aren't unique in that. People power? Are you serious about that? I take it you heard what happened to the EDL. What makes you think any other protest will succeed if the 'authorities' do not wish them to? The Police are far from neutral. I'm glad we agree on something, for a change. When you look at it in the round, they all want to get their grubby mits on the levers. If the people really want something they will have to rise up and take it, it won't be given and it won't be bloodless, either.
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 23, 2010 15:36:44 GMT
All of them claim the moral high ground, the Tories aren't unique in that. I agree, but to attempt to win the high moral ground about how Gordon Brown became PM then to advocate the same kind of coup is rather sickening, don't you think? All of them claim the moral high ground, the Tories aren't unique in that. People power? Are you serious about that? I take it you heard what happened to the EDL. What makes you think any other protest will succeed if the 'authorities' do not wish them to? The Police are far from neutral. Yes, but the EDL are not the best example to defend. They are little more than violent thugs out for bother. The police have used the same tactics against football thugs, because these people are football thugs (or ex football thugs) If the people really want something they will have to rise up and take it, it won't be given and it won't be bloodless, either. A bit of hyperbole, fretty. I have seen quite a bit of Governments changing policies through people power. Even, if those polies are wrong headed.
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Post by fretslider on Feb 23, 2010 19:37:14 GMT
All of them claim the moral high ground, the Tories aren't unique in that. I agree, but to attempt to win the high moral ground about how Gordon Brown became PM then to advocate the same kind of coup is rather sickening, don't you think? Yes, but the EDL are not the best example to defend. They are little more than violent thugs out for bother. The police have used the same tactics against football thugs, because these people are football thugs (or ex football thugs) If the people really want something they will have to rise up and take it, it won't be given and it won't be bloodless, either. A bit of hyperbole, fretty. I have seen quite a bit of Governments changing policies through people power. Even, if those polies are wrong headed. Gordon was nobody's choice though was he. It was a (disastrous) shoe-in, RV. He has no more claim to the moral high ground than any of the other snouts. I find them all sickening, don't you? If you read what I posted I wasn't defending the EDL at all, I was pointing out their raison d'etre. [The EDL seem to be the logical response to organisations such as, al mahajiroun, islam4uk etc. I think, whether we like it or not - and most will not, that they are articulating the frustrations of many citizens; especially in the light of Labour's deliberate attempts at social engineering. Thanks to the elite's habit of keeping people out of political decision making, we now have knuckledraggers with a very real cause. I see no real difference between left and right, they are two sides of the same coin. Its an outmoded way of thinking, anyway.] No, RV. Its a cold hard fact. And you really do delude yourself if you think any of these parties are going to give an inch when it comes to handing democratic power back to the people.
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 23, 2010 20:58:35 GMT
Gordon was nobody's choice though was he. It was a (disastrous) shoe-in, RV. He has no more claim to the moral high ground than any of the other snouts. I find them all sickening, don't you? Well I would dispute he has been a disaster. People need to look at the actual underlying issues in our economy, not merely the last five minutes. The underlying issues span back 30 to 40 years, not to what the Tory rags tell them.
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 23, 2010 21:02:24 GMT
No, RV. Its a cold hard fact. And you really do delude yourself if you think any of these parties are going to give an inch when it comes to handing democratic power back to the people. I can think of many examples where polical movements in this Country have been brought about with Parties bending to the will of the people, none more so than the Labour Party. SOME of them have been completely wrong headed in my view, but there you go.
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Post by fretslider on Feb 23, 2010 21:31:02 GMT
Gordon was nobody's choice though was he. It was a (disastrous) shoe-in, RV. He has no more claim to the moral high ground than any of the other snouts. I find them all sickening, don't you? Well I would dispute he has been a disaster. People need to look at the actual underlying issues in our economy, not merely the last five minutes. The underlying issues span back 30 to 40 years, not to what the Tory rags tell them. Of course you dispute it, I see you have aligned yourself with the neocons in New Labour. But do try to think outside that tired old paradigm. The truth is he has been a disaster, and the Tories will be no better. The underlying issues have an awful lot to do with Brown as Chancellor. You cannot blame PPP and PFI on anybody else, although Major did try a stab at it. The current global financial crisis has presented PFI with difficulties because many sources of private capital have dried up. Nevertheless, PFI remains Brown's preferred method for public sector procurement. However, because of the banks' unwillingness to lend money for PFI projects, the government now has to fund the so-called 'private' finance initiative itself. The Labour government has sought to justify PFI on ideological grounds. It is a fact that projects are on average 30% more expensive under PFI than if publicly funded. Payments to the private owners of the PFI schemes are stretching already constricted budgets. Many NHS Trusts are in serious financial difficulty. It's a something for 'no tax' sleight of hand, PFI contracts are off-balance-sheet, meaning that they do not show up as part of the national debt. Take the case of Balmoral High School in Northern Ireland which cost £17m to build in 2002. In 2007 the decision was made to close the school because of lack of pupils. But the PFI contract is due to run for another 20 years, so the taxpayer will be paying millions of pounds for an unused facility. This is only one aspect of the disaster that is Gordon Brown. The Tories are ideoligically wedded to this madness too.
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Post by fretslider on Feb 23, 2010 21:37:42 GMT
No, RV. Its a cold hard fact. And you really do delude yourself if you think any of these parties are going to give an inch when it comes to handing democratic power back to the people. I can think of many examples where polical movements in this Country have been brought about with Parties bending to the will of the people, none more so than the Labour Party. SOME of them have been completely wrong headed in my view, but there you go. Sometimes I think you deliberately misunderstand. I spoke of power and the people, meaning just that. The power of recall of an MP or a Parliament - 5% of the constituency signing a petition triggering a plebiscite The power of referenda - subject to 5% of the constituency signing a petition. PR STV Fixed term Parliaments I could go on, but I think maybe you get it now. No party will give an inch, as I stated. The UK is the least democratic country in the western world, that is something to be ashamed of.
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