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Post by randomvioce on Feb 24, 2010 15:50:28 GMT
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 24, 2010 15:52:17 GMT
Carry on clutching at straws, Tovarich. You really have no understanding at all on this. Ben is 100% correct in his analysis. I have a better understanding than someone who thinks that we can run a Country on referenda.
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Post by fretslider on Feb 24, 2010 15:55:49 GMT
Carry on clutching at straws, Tovarich. You really have no understanding at all on this. Ben is 100% correct in his analysis. I have a better understanding than someone who thinks that we can run a Country on referenda. Tovarich, I'm going to break thhe T&C's to tell you that you really are an intellectual pygmy. You have understood nothing at all. A total space of waste.
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 24, 2010 16:05:26 GMT
You have understood nothing at all. A total space of waste. Hah! Shows where your level of debate is! Your rather stupid ideas lie in tatters round your ankles and then you are forced into hurling insults in an attempt to deflect from your own intellectual inadequacies. It is not my fault that your ideas are totally unworkable, it is not my fault you are unable to defend your simplistic solutions to highly complex problems. It is far easier to shout insults though. Well done.
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Post by fretslider on Feb 24, 2010 16:10:34 GMT
You have understood nothing at all. A total space of waste. Hah! Shows where your level of debate is! Your rather stupid ideas lie in tatters round your ankles and then you are forced into hurling insults in an attempt to deflect from your own intellectual inadequacies. It is not my fault that your ideas are totally unworkable, it is not my fault you are unable to defend your simplistic solutions to highly complex problems. It is far easier to shout insults though. Well done. Did I call you scum or a nutjob? No. I merely told you what everybody knows. You are anti-democratic by instinct - it can't be by rational thought, because you seem devoid of them. If my ideas are unworkable then why are they, er, in operation across the western democracies - bar one? As for that one about never voting Labour, now that was good and totally unbelievable. Nevermind, Tovarich.
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 24, 2010 16:49:12 GMT
I realise I am not the most objective person when it comes to either the Conservative Party or the Death penalty. So with that caveat in place, here goes.
The Tory Party have lost three pretty devastating elections in a row. You would imagine that they would have been looking for populist, Right Wing policies to boost their chances in those elections. If so, there was one guaranteed vote winner, namely the re-introduction of the death penalty. I am not sure where the opinion polls are now, but I am sure that if there is no absolute majority for it now, there is undoubtedly a large base of support for its re-introduction.
During eighteen years in office many members of the cabinet(s) where pro the re-introduction and no doubt many backbenchers where too. I think that Michael Howard was pro at one stage in his career and may still be now.
Yet despite all of the above, and in the face of dismal poll ratings, no Conservative leader put any commitment into a manifesto, despite it being popular both in the Country and among activists. Without attempting to be rude, I think it fair to say that a policy introducing a referendum on the subject would find it’s natural home in the Conservative Party. Yet despite that the last attempt to introduce such a move failed almost 30 years ago, and no serious attempt has been made since then.
Why?
Well we can only speculate to the reason, but I think that few MPs would want the job of drafting such legislation and ensuring that the innocent did not swing.
I believe that although it is one thing to pontificate on a subject, however popular it would sound in the saloon bar there is a huge difference in swaggering about it, and actually drawing up the appropriate legalisation. Although people may support the death penalty when they are not responsible for its administration, when your decision could mean life or death it makes the decision that little bit harder.
This is what I mean by power without responsibility.
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Post by fretslider on Feb 24, 2010 18:24:59 GMT
I realise I am not the most objective person when it comes to either the Conservative Party or the Death penalty. So with that caveat in place, here goes. The Tory Party have lost three pretty devastating elections in a row. You would imagine that they would have been looking for populist, Right Wing policies to boost their chances in those elections. If so, there was one guaranteed vote winner, namely the re-introduction of the death penalty. I am not sure where the opinion polls are now, but I am sure that if there is no absolute majority for it now, there is undoubtedly a large base of support for its re-introduction. During eighteen years in office many members of the cabinet(s) where pro the re-introduction and no doubt many backbenchers where too. I think that Michael Howard was pro at one stage in his career and may still be now. Yet despite all of the above, and in the face of dismal poll ratings, no Conservative leader put any commitment into a manifesto, despite it being popular both in the Country and among activists. Without attempting to be rude, I think it fair to say that a policy introducing a referendum on the subject would find it’s natural home in the Conservative Party. Yet despite that the last attempt to introduce such a move failed almost 30 years ago, and no serious attempt has been made since then. Why? Well we can only speculate to the reason, but I think that few MPs would want the job of drafting such legislation and ensuring that the innocent did not swing. I believe that although it is one thing to pontificate on a subject, however popular it would sound in the saloon bar there is a huge difference in swaggering about it, and actually drawing up the appropriate legalisation. Although people may support the death penalty when they are not responsible for its administration, when your decision could mean life or death it makes the decision that little bit harder. This is what I mean by power without responsibility. Full marks for some candour. Yet you still think in the old paradigm and it seems you don't know how to think outside it. The system - including FPTP - is an elected dictatorship with the Tories and Labour taking turns its all hopelessly adversarial. How many of the countries I have cited in Europe have the death penalty? Do you know why that is? [Article 2 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union prohibits the use of capital punishment.] So you typed all that out for nothing. We've had abortion and now the death penalty, what's next, RV? You rail against democracy out of fear. My suspicions, I'm afraid, are confirmed.
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 24, 2010 19:15:00 GMT
The system - including FPTP - is an elected dictatorship with the Tories and Labour taking turns its all hopelessly adversarial. You want a system of PR? Fine, I can accept that. I support PR too. [Article 2 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union prohibits the use of capital punishment.] But,the Tories never placed the re-introduction into the manifesto before this. Okay, what about a little more prosaic example? Let us imagine that after this winter (the worse of thirty years). The following question is put to ballot: ‘We, the undersigned demand that all roads are gritted an hour after it starts to snow’ After all the hoops are jumped through and the vote taken, this makes it into the queen’s speech (or equivalent). Those who voted for it, have, of course, no need to cost, or plan the logistics of this. They need no expertise in any of the aspects of crisis management, or budget setting or staff management etc. The Parliament of the day has to measure the roads and required workforce and then calculate the budget, procure the necessary equipment and infrastructures, employ the people, and buy the grit. What if the total bill comes to several billions of pounds and it never snows for the next five years? Then what? All that money wasted, based on the most unusual winter in a generation. What if the entire fleet rusts and goes to waste without ever being used? What if such a plan nearly bankrupts half a dozen local councils in the process? Who is accountable for such a calamity? Who gets the boot and who gets kicked out of office? Surely the prudent thing to do is look at the cost/benefit analysis and plan accordingly given the likely scenarios and after suitably trained experts has looked at the technical issue involved?
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Post by fretslider on Feb 24, 2010 19:23:53 GMT
The system - including FPTP - is an elected dictatorship with the Tories and Labour taking turns its all hopelessly adversarial. You want a system of PR? Fine, I can accept that. I support PR too. [Article 2 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union prohibits the use of capital punishment.] But,the Tories never placed the re-introduction into the manifesto before this. Okay, what about a little more prosaic example? Let us imagine that after this winter (the worse of thirty years). The following question is put to ballot: ‘We, the undersigned demand that all roads are gritted an hour after it starts to snow’ After all the hoops are jumped through and the vote taken, this makes it into the queen’s speech (or equivalent). Those who voted for it, have, of course, no need to cost, or plan the logistics of this. They need no expertise in any of the aspects of crisis management, or budget setting or staff management etc. The Parliament of the day has to measure the roads and required workforce and then calculate the budget, procure the necessary equipment and infrastructures, employ the people, and buy the grit. What if the total bill comes to several billions of pounds and it never snows for the next five years? Then what? All that money wasted, based on the most unusual winter in a generation. What if the entire fleet rusts and goes to waste without ever being used? What if such a plan nearly bankrupts half a dozen local councils in the process? Who is accountable for such a calamity? Who gets the boot and who gets kicked out of office? Surely the prudent thing to do is look at the cost/benefit analysis and plan accordingly given the likely scenarios and after suitably trained experts has looked at the technical issue involved? Tories? This is an obsession of yours. Queens speech? Jeez. I'm wasting my time here.
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 24, 2010 19:32:31 GMT
I said 'Or equivalent'. Surely would accept that there would still need to be an 'order of business'. You wouldn't just expect every bill to bundled up and put through on an ad hock basis?
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Post by fretslider on Feb 24, 2010 19:34:43 GMT
I said 'Or equivalent'. Surely would accept that there would still need to be an 'order of business'. You wouldn't just expect every bill to bundled up and put through on an ad hock basis? You're still thinking in that box
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 24, 2010 19:50:04 GMT
You're still thinking in that box Whatever this 'new system is going to be, it is still going to have a structure to it. We are still going to have to draft laws, we are still going to have timetables etc.
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Post by fretslider on Feb 24, 2010 19:56:46 GMT
You're still thinking in that box Whatever this 'new system is going to be, it is still going to have a structure to it. We are still going to have to draft laws, we are still going to have timetables etc. That is all to be worked out and decided, I am not in the business of saying what we must have, except for real democracy.
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 24, 2010 20:29:07 GMT
That is all to be worked out and decided. Oh, Fretty, surely you jest! Are seriously telling that that the very underpinning of a democratic system 'has still to be worked out'? Surely that is first thing that requires to be worked out?
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Post by fretslider on Feb 24, 2010 20:42:07 GMT
That is all to be worked out and decided. Oh, Fretty, surely you jest! Are seriously telling that that the very underpinning of a democratic system 'has still to be worked out'? Surely that is first thing that requires to be worked out? It is my lot, it seems, to have to deal with an intellectual pygmy. You are assuredly New Labour through and through. Do you think before you type? Try it you might get used to it. I have alluded to..... A written constitution as the starting point (with the obvious removal of the Habsburg Saxe Coburg Gotha Battenburg Windsor family). Wholly elected bi-cameral chambers for the nations and a federal entity - The Palace of Westminster to be assigned a new use or demolished. HoS serving a maximum of 2 four year terms able to intervene when Parliament goes off the rails as it already has. Fixed term Parliaments Recall Petition That should get you started I wonder if anything at all permeates your brain, RV I always have to lay it out at least twice.
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 24, 2010 21:02:08 GMT
It is my lot, it seems, to have to deal with an intellectual pygmy. You are assuredly New Labour through and through. Do you think before you type? Try it you might get used to it. I have alluded to..... A written constitution as the starting point (with the obvious removal of the Habsburg Saxe Coburg Gotha Battenburg Windsor family). Wholly elected bi-cameral chambers for the nations and a federal entity - The Palace of Westminster to be assigned a new use or demolished. HoS serving a maximum of 2 four year terms able to intervene when Parliament goes off the rails as it already has. Fixed term Parliaments Recall Petition That should get you started . Yes, sure, but how much have you actually thought out? Recall, when and how many time? Every time you can gather 5% of the vote? So most constituencies will be having recall votes every week then? Or if every two years, then doesn't that mean we have terms that last two years? Referenda. Yes, I can see how much thought you have put into that, alright. Who will pay for these referenda? Who will draw them up and will their contents be fully costed or will they have to pass a 'workability' threshold who judges that? Do you propose that private citizens will be allowed simply to write up a question like: No more illegal immigration and then Parliment have to work out the details, irrespective of the cost? Again 5% of the population can put something to the vote? No cap on the number of petitions at anyone time? So how is that to paid for? Let see what you have got Fretty, from here it looks like bugger all, but I am not suprised.
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Post by june on Feb 24, 2010 21:16:57 GMT
is anyone else feeling really horny?
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Post by fretslider on Feb 24, 2010 21:37:23 GMT
It is my lot, it seems, to have to deal with an intellectual pygmy. You are assuredly New Labour through and through. Do you think before you type? Try it you might get used to it. I have alluded to..... A written constitution as the starting point (with the obvious removal of the Habsburg Saxe Coburg Gotha Battenburg Windsor family). Wholly elected bi-cameral chambers for the nations and a federal entity - The Palace of Westminster to be assigned a new use or demolished. HoS serving a maximum of 2 four year terms able to intervene when Parliament goes off the rails as it already has. Fixed term Parliaments Recall Petition That should get you started . Yes, sure, but how much have you actually thought out? Recall, when and how many time? Every time you can gather 5% of the vote? So most constituencies will be having recall votes every week then? Or if every two years, then doesn't that mean we have terms that last two years? Referenda. Yes, I can see how much thought you have put into that, alright. Who will pay for these referenda? Who will draw them up and will their contents be fully costed or will they have to pass a 'workability' threshold who judges that? Do you propose that private citizens will be allowed simply to write up a question like: No more illegal immigration and then Parliment have to work out the details, irrespective of the cost? Again 5% of the population can put something to the vote? No cap on the number of petitions at anyone time? So how is that to paid for? Let see what you have got Fretty, from here it looks like bugger all, but I am not suprised. Tovarich, it continually escapes you that these systems are up and running in a lot of countries. Who drew up the German system? Can you guess? You are, like the system you seek to defend, a museum piece.
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Post by fretslider on Feb 24, 2010 21:37:56 GMT
is anyone else feeling really horny? You know me......
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Post by june on Feb 24, 2010 21:44:00 GMT
is anyone else feeling really horny? You know me...... I just thought you could both us a little light relief. *no double meaning intended
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