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Post by iamjumbo on Mar 21, 2010 16:29:53 GMT
If the Americans want a totally free market in health insurance, then that's up to them (you). Of course those, for instance, diagnosed with insulin-dependent diabetes in childhood would never be able to afford a policy and they'd just die. But hey, it's the free market so it must be good. I can't see how this plan would do anything to put an end to the fact that Americans pay more per head for healthcare than any other developed country, and have a higher infant mortality rate and an earlier average death rate than other comparable countries. But it would obviously satisfy those who put ideology above humanity. the intelligent, REAL americans do NOT want healthcare in the hands of so called "free market" imbeciles. it is only the minority right wing kooks who das adores that even mention free market in the same breath as healthcare
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Post by iamjumbo on Mar 21, 2010 16:35:29 GMT
Arguing that government run health care could be high-quality, cost effective, and rationed fairly is just not very tenable. We have many examples of government run organizations. Those bureaucracies just get bigger and bigger. Employees don't get fired. Service is poor. Costs escalate over time. Imagine a government takeover of all fine dining restaurants. No more restaurants owned by great chefs. Pretty soon no more great chefs. damm clown. grapes are NOT watermelons. why do you insist on trying to claim that they are? your argument is not just a loser, it is a total non starter. IF such happened in the countries which do have it right on healthcare, you would at least have a semblance of a point. since it has been conclusively PROVEN, beyond all doubt, that such is NOT the case, the imbecillic republican scare tactics that you love to regurgitate don't get off the ground, much less fly
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Mar 22, 2010 1:14:53 GMT
Wrongo Jumbo
You just don't get it. If the Democrats succeed in pushing their lame health care bill through the Congress then you may get it when your very own health care is compromised.
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Post by mouse on Mar 22, 2010 8:39:16 GMT
i watched some of the people spouting off about the health care bill on the tv last night... i wondered just what planet the anti health care faction lived on with some of the nonsence they were comming out with.....mindless..utterly mondless they should have concentrated on making sure NON americans did not have free acess....not wittering on about democracy
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Post by jean on Mar 22, 2010 8:56:56 GMT
the old maxim..for each acording to his/her needs But don't forget the other half - from each according to his ability.That means that some WILL get what you call a 'free ride'.
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Post by mouse on Mar 22, 2010 9:38:33 GMT
the old maxim..for each acording to his/her needs But don't forget the other half - from each according to his ability.That means that some WILL get what you call a 'free ride'. i dont believe in free rides.....no pay no get.... even if one cannot pay a great deal every one should pay some thing ...one of the reasons ours is failing apart from rubbish management is too many who have never put in the pot are taking out and taking out quite a lot but a national health service is a wonderful thing
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Post by iamjumbo on Mar 22, 2010 11:12:30 GMT
Wrongo Jumbo You just don't get it. If the Democrats succeed in pushing their lame health care bill through the Congress then you may get it when your very own health care is compromised. you lose lad. thankfully, the american people won yesterday, and the obstructionists got put in their place. your desire to see cigna continue to profit on the deaths of children took a dive. we no longer have to worry about lack of care. for the record my boy, over ninety percent of doctors and hospitals supported the bill. only the lunatic fringe and insurance companies, same same of course, opposed providing treatment for sick children
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Post by iamjumbo on Mar 22, 2010 11:23:06 GMT
But don't forget the other half - from each according to his ability.That means that some WILL get what you call a 'free ride'. i dont believe in free rides.....no pay no get.... even if one cannot pay a great deal every one should pay some thing ...one of the reasons ours is failing apart from rubbish management is too many who have never put in the pot are taking out and taking out quite a lot but a national health service is a wonderful thing no rational person would try to claim otherwise
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Post by riotgrrl on Mar 22, 2010 11:24:08 GMT
Look on the bright side Bushadmirer . . soon you too can have 'Baby Death Panels' meeting in the USA to decide which babies are to live and which are to die, just like we have in the UK
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Post by gabriel on Mar 22, 2010 11:40:40 GMT
OK jim. This getting scary. You and I agree on another topic!!!!!
I don't understand why this debate just has to be about the US and Canada. There are other Western countries that have govt healthcare.
I say good for Obama but I bet he's got a lot of obstacles in his way.
Everyone has the right to decent medical care. Everyone. I pay enough taxes for many people to have medical care. You know where I go? To a private hospital that charges a lot of money for me to get immediate attention and it's the best my money can buy.
What would I do if I wasn't earning decent money and my kids were sick?
We've had hospital cover for everyone for the last 25-30 years. The country hasn't fallen to pieces. Everyone has the right to see a doctor whether they can afford to or not.
And if you honestly think that only the people who can afford it should be covered, then I'm ready to discuss the topic. JM and hard worked for opinion.
Gabriel
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Post by iamjumbo on Mar 22, 2010 13:42:36 GMT
OK jim. This getting scary. You and I agree on another topic!!!!! I don't understand why this debate just has to be about the US and Canada. There are other Western countries that have govt healthcare. I say good for Obama but I bet he's got a lot of obstacles in his way. Everyone has the right to decent medical care. Everyone. I pay enough taxes for many people to have medical care. You know where I go? To a private hospital that charges a lot of money for me to get immediate attention and it's the best my money can buy. What would I do if I wasn't earning decent money and my kids were sick? We've had hospital cover for everyone for the last 25-30 years. The country hasn't fallen to pieces. Everyone has the right to see a doctor whether they can afford to or not. And if you honestly think that only the people who can afford it should be covered, then I'm ready to discuss the topic. JM and hard worked for opinion. Gabriel this one is even easier than bolger. this is a simple trip of whether you think children have a right to live, or whether you think that the greed of insurance companies is more important than a child's life. that is the ONLY question involved in health care reform. those who oppose reform obviously have made the latter choice
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Post by pumpkinette on Mar 22, 2010 14:50:35 GMT
Bushadmirer I'm not convinced by your statistics. People don't wait 6 months to be treated for diabetes; they couldn't, they would die. Unless the figures refer to type 2 diabetes . . where the treatement is in the hands of the patient themselves. They don't wait to be treated, they have to regulate their own diet. People who are diagnosed as type 1 diabetic will be treated immediately and will receive free insulin therapy for the rest of their lives, supported by regular appointments with specialists. I do not share your belief that a background working in the corporate field necessarily makes you better qualified for government. An FYI, some with type 2 diabetes HAVE to be on medications and/or insulin AFTER trying to control their blood sugar through diet and exercise. EVERY case of diabetes is different also: some diabetics can tolerate certain foods while others can't.
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Post by iamjumbo on Mar 22, 2010 15:13:57 GMT
Bushadmirer I'm not convinced by your statistics. People don't wait 6 months to be treated for diabetes; they couldn't, they would die. Unless the figures refer to type 2 diabetes . . where the treatement is in the hands of the patient themselves. They don't wait to be treated, they have to regulate their own diet. People who are diagnosed as type 1 diabetic will be treated immediately and will receive free insulin therapy for the rest of their lives, supported by regular appointments with specialists. I do not share your belief that a background working in the corporate field necessarily makes you better qualified for government. An FYI, some with type 2 diabetes HAVE to be on medications and/or insulin AFTER trying to control their blood sugar through diet and exercise. EVERY case of diabetes is different also: some diabetics can tolerate certain foods while others can't. and that is just one reason that we need universal health care. there are more than a few of those people who cannot afford those medications, and it IS the government's job to ensure that the drugs are provided, whether merck makes a penny on them or not
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Post by riotgrrl on Mar 22, 2010 15:53:16 GMT
So, basically my question is this:
Do people in the USA who have insulin-dependent diabetes (type 1 OR type 2) die of it because they can't afford the treatments?
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Post by riotgrrl on Mar 22, 2010 15:59:59 GMT
I ask because diabetes is a far more common cause of death in the USA than in the UK, although that may well be because it is recorded differently.
The United States spends $5274 per person, per year, on health care and the United Kingdom spends $2164.
With that huge amount of extra money, I'm curious as to whether Americans would automatically get insulin on prescription as a routine thing, or if it's a problematic thing.
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Post by pumpkinette on Mar 22, 2010 16:38:59 GMT
So, basically my question is this: Do people in the USA who have insulin-dependent diabetes (type 1 OR type 2) die of it because they can't afford the treatments? I've run into people on messsage boards (both type 1's and type 2's) who have no insurance, can't afford it, etc. and are looking for advice on how to get medications, insulin, etc. There's also diabetics who DO have insurance that can't get enough test strips, etc. (what are called diabetic supplies) to test themselves FULLY to know where they stand with their blood sugar, etc. I don't know of any who have died because of these things, but wouldn't be surprised if some HAVE. Diabetes is a progressive disease also. This means it gets worse over time in many people. The people who can manage it with diet/exercise only are rare.
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Post by iamjumbo on Mar 22, 2010 16:58:51 GMT
So, basically my question is this: Do people in the USA who have insulin-dependent diabetes (type 1 OR type 2) die of it because they can't afford the treatments? they die because the death panels of the insurance companies choose to refuse to pay for treatment
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Post by gabriel on Mar 24, 2010 11:23:16 GMT
So Obama's Health Bill has been passed and tonight I see on Larry King (I couldn't help myself, I was just flicking through, honestly) that 14 state AG's are going to try to have the bill declared unconstitutional. Well, good luck with that. Stephen Baldwin (well-known political commentator that he is - yes, Alec's brother) was more interested in Obama's potty mouth when Obama hugged Biden before the signing. Potty mouth. Tell me, Mr Baldwin. I know you've got way more money than me from your very successful career in Hollywood. How many people would need to become completely incapacitated, maybe die, because they couldn't afford hospital care, before it made a difference to you? I just don't get this almost hysterical reaction to something that other countries have had in place for decades. Potty mouth. That's classic.
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Post by iamjumbo on Mar 24, 2010 13:16:56 GMT
So Obama's Health Bill has been passed and tonight I see on Larry King (I couldn't help myself, I was just flicking through, honestly) that 14 state AG's are going to try to have the bill declared unconstitutional. Well, good luck with that. Stephen Baldwin (well-known political commentator that he is - yes, Alec's brother) was more interested in Obama's potty mouth when Obama hugged Biden before the signing. Potty mouth. Tell me, Mr Baldwin. I know you've got way more money than me from your very successful career in Hollywood. How many people would need to become completely incapacitated, maybe die, because they couldn't afford hospital care, before it made a difference to you? I just don't get this almost hysterical reaction to something that other countries have had in place for decades. Potty mouth. That's classic. it's really very simple. for all the faults of the europeans, and the rest of the western world, the pathological desire to ever widen the disparity between rich and poor is not an overwhelming compulsion of their psyche as it is with the lunatic fringe in the states. for sure, europe has its share of those who idolize greed, but not to the extent of the nutjobs here who so passionately want people to die so that insurance companies can make ever more unconscionable profit anyway, it was biden who whispered "this is f.cking great" to obama
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Post by jade on Mar 25, 2010 9:13:42 GMT
small question, tiny point
Is there anyone that actually believes we do NOT have death panels here in the UK?
Course we do.
So does everyone else.
they just go by different names is all.
Ours are called NICE (Orwellian for Nasty!) who decide what treatments, that help avoid death, are going to be paid for. Now you might say that people can try and raise money for those treatments on their own but NICE have closed that little loopyhole.
Because if you try and buy those extra drugs, the ones the death panel thinks are too costly for your miserable life, then you have to raise a fortune to pay for ALL of the rest of your treatment
No mixed economy here, no siree, its the death panels way or the highway.
If that death panel dont get ya, there is another in every region- the Strategic Health Authority, making judgements about money and priorities.
and if that dont get ya there are your local PCTs who also make decisions about what you can and can't have in the way of health services.
We call it a Post Code Lottery (Orwellian speak for "look its a Lottery! there are Winners! It could be You!")
Then there are the more local Council services that decide how much social care local adults can recieve - each penny counted against the ned to keep you alive with a life worth living.
so yes, we do have death panels. thing is they are just trying to do most good for the money they get given. Money is not infinite, and choices about priorities have to be made. As long as they are populated with people whose first concern is the health rather than the money, they are all in all a good thing.
It just might not feel like it if they have said "no" to prolonging your life.
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