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Post by firedancer on Feb 5, 2010 12:45:13 GMT
As the EU thread has been hijacked by climate debaters I decided to start a new one. I said the Eurozone was the EU's Achilles heel. My husband, who is much better informed than I am on economics and money and has been uncannily accurate in his predictions over the years, has held the view since it started that it will collapse eventually under the resentment of richer nations contributing to the EU baling out poorer ones and the inability under Eurozone rules of individual countries to adjust interest rates etc. to suit their individual conditions and problems. I don't know whether he will be proved right or not though I have instinctively felt (and said on the other EU thread) that one size cannot fit all. It seems I am not alone in that view as it has been said today by Nobel economist Paul Krugman (who got a flea in his ear from Spanish Finance minister Elena Salgado who said Krugman did not "understand" the Eurozone). euro crashWhat do other posters think?
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Post by fretslider on Feb 5, 2010 13:20:19 GMT
As the EU thread has been hijacked by climate debaters I decided to start a new one. I said the Eurozone was the EU's Achilles heel. My husband, who is much better informed than I am on economics and money and has been uncannily accurate in his predictions over the years, has held the view since it started that it will collapse eventually under the resentment of richer nations contributing to the EU baling out poorer ones and the inability under Eurozone rules of individual countries to adjust interest rates etc. to suit their individual conditions and problems. I don't know whether he will be proved right or not though I have instinctively felt (and said on the other EU thread) that one size cannot fit all. It seems I am not alone in that view as it has been said today by Nobel economist Paul Krugman (who got a flea in his ear from Spanish Finance minister Elena Salgado who said Krugman did not "understand" the Eurozone). euro crashWhat do other posters think? My apologies, fd. I did not think posting a graph would lead to that. The problem for the Eurozone is that it lacks the proper institutions - a bicameral parliament etc etc. As long as it remains a 'members club' there is no easy answer to the problem. The obvious solution under the present paradigm is for the richer nations to bail the poorer ones out. This is the price of the half-way house. If Europe in some way resembled an entity such as the United States it would be a different proposition altogether. In the interests of all it would be best to go full tilt for a federal state or to break up the Eurozone and return to national currencies. I think the former is more likely than the latter. This will inevitably take time.
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Post by mouse on Feb 5, 2010 15:50:16 GMT
we shall see what we shall see...greece is wobbling and i think its spain is going the same way...we could well be in for another recession and we havent come out of this one yet may it all come crashing down on the heads of the corrupt elite who are the only ones gaining from this travesty of ""democracy""
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Post by iamjumbo on Feb 5, 2010 15:58:41 GMT
we shall see what we shall see...greece is wobbling and i think its spain is going the same way...we could well be in for another recession and we havent come out of this one yet may it all come crashing down on the heads of the corrupt elite who are the only ones gaining from this travesty of ""democracy"" exactly what democracy would that be? there is NOTHING democratic about the eu
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Post by fretslider on Feb 5, 2010 16:01:17 GMT
we shall see what we shall see...greece is wobbling and i think its spain is going the same way...we could well be in for another recession and we havent come out of this one yet may it all come crashing down on the heads of the corrupt elite who are the only ones gaining from this travesty of ""democracy"" exactly what democracy would that be? there is NOTHING democratic about the eu Precisely because it is a members club. Its all about the political elite(s) If I mention the Kinnocks etc I'm sure you will get the picture.
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Post by riotgrrl on Feb 5, 2010 17:18:24 GMT
we shall see what we shall see...greece is wobbling and i think its spain is going the same way...we could well be in for another recession and we havent come out of this one yet may it all come crashing down on the heads of the corrupt elite who are the only ones gaining from this travesty of ""democracy"" exactly what democracy would that be? there is NOTHING democratic about the eu Except that it is scrutinised by a directly elected Parliament and that the Council of Ministers is made up of politicians elected directly in the member states and that a condition of membership is that you are a democratic nation . . . . . .but apart from that, not a single democratic thing at all about the EU.
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Post by riotgrrl on Feb 5, 2010 17:19:21 GMT
For what it's worth, I'd like to see a single currency throughout the world.
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Post by iamjumbo on Feb 5, 2010 17:32:25 GMT
For what it's worth, I'd like to see a single currency throughout the world. that would indeed be tragic, but would not bother you, since you labor under the delusion that it is one world rather than 195 totally separate and distinct nations
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Post by fretslider on Feb 5, 2010 17:56:10 GMT
exactly what democracy would that be? there is NOTHING democratic about the eu Except that it is scrutinised by a directly elected Parliament and that the Council of Ministers is made up of politicians elected directly in the member states and that a condition of membership is that you are a democratic nation . . . . . .but apart from that, not a single democratic thing at all about the EU. Riot, I am surprised. I'm all in favour of the EU, but not the dystopic creation we have before us. Its only half a Parliament and the council always, well mostly, gets its way. It is a members club. You cannot seriously say that the UK has a decent democratic system, its more of an elected dictatorship. And what's more, it's rotten to the core. These are the people who end up in the council. Commissioners, like the aforementioned Kinnocks etc are on the gravy train and that's what people are uptight about.
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Post by mouse on Feb 5, 2010 18:00:06 GMT
exactly what democracy would that be? there is NOTHING democratic about the eu Except that it is scrutinised by a directly elected Parliament and that the Council of Ministers is made up of politicians elected directly in the member states and that a condition of membership is that you are a democratic nation . . . a scrutinised parliament that cannot get its books audited in 16yrs.....that sidelines disent and favours family memebers is there a democratic nation...where ???i dont know of one and as for elected..lol they are trying to change that..seems they want a few more emp,s ..not necessarily elected ones either[addys news out of europe] and a condition of memebership apears to be ""vote the way we want you to vote"" and if you dont you will have to vote untill you give us the result we want...so where is the democracy
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Post by iamjumbo on Feb 5, 2010 18:28:39 GMT
exactly what democracy would that be? there is NOTHING democratic about the eu Except that it is scrutinised by a directly elected Parliament and that the Council of Ministers is made up of politicians elected directly in the member states and that a condition of membership is that you are a democratic nation . . . . . .but apart from that, not a single democratic thing at all about the EU. scrutinized? i see. something along the lines of the fbi scrutinizing the activites of al capone. cool i also don't recall an EU WIDE campaign and election of any ministers. the eu is NOT like the u.s. where each state elects representatives to congress, and a NATIONWIDE vote for president. what official of the eu did you directly vote for?
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Post by iamjumbo on Feb 5, 2010 18:32:00 GMT
exactly what democracy would that be? there is NOTHING democratic about the eu Precisely because it is a members club. Its all about the political elite(s) If I mention the Kinnocks etc I'm sure you will get the picture. the reality is that it is exactly like the soviet union was, except that instead of everyone getting some benefit, the eu is solely for the benefit of the rich
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 5, 2010 18:48:13 GMT
the reality is that it is exactly like the soviet union was, except that instead of everyone getting some benefit, the eu is solely for the benefit of the rich Oh dear! It has been the poorest people in Europe that have benefitted most from the EU, and that is the single biggest complaint about the EU. The Greeks, Poles, Spanish/Portugese have made biggest gains under the EU at the direct expense of the richer people.
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Post by iamjumbo on Feb 5, 2010 20:09:31 GMT
the reality is that it is exactly like the soviet union was, except that instead of everyone getting some benefit, the eu is solely for the benefit of the rich Oh dear! It has been the poorest people in Europe that have benefitted most from the EU, and that is the single biggest complaint about the EU. The Greeks, Poles, Spanish/Portugese have made biggest gains under the EU at the direct expense of the richer people. that's true, but i was referring to the eu politburo, and the poor english, french, german, etc people
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Post by riotgrrl on Feb 5, 2010 20:12:47 GMT
There are benefits to the richer nations in having richer neighbours.
In the history of the EU, the richer nations have continued to grow their economies (until recently) so maybe also helping to grow the economies of poorer nations was no big deal.
With the free movement of people, it would be a bad idea to have an impoverished nation as a neighbour.
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Post by riotgrrl on Feb 5, 2010 20:15:38 GMT
For what it's worth, I'd like to see a single currency throughout the world. that would indeed be tragic, but would not bother you, since you labor under the delusion that it is one world rather than 195 totally separate and distinct nations In what way is being a distinct nation compromised by not having a distinct currency? I'm Scottish and always have been, and my national identity has been in no way reduced by the fact that Scotland does not have a distinct currency. Every day millions - billions? - of pounds are made by people speculating on currency fluctuations. These leeches do not make anything. They do not provide a service. It's an industry we could go without - it does nothing to improve the lives of the vast majority of people, but a few fat cats get even richer. What are the objections to a single international currency?
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Post by riotgrrl on Feb 5, 2010 20:18:22 GMT
Except that it is scrutinised by a directly elected Parliament and that the Council of Ministers is made up of politicians elected directly in the member states and that a condition of membership is that you are a democratic nation . . . . . .but apart from that, not a single democratic thing at all about the EU. scrutinized? i see. something along the lines of the fbi scrutinizing the activites of al capone. cool i also don't recall an EU WIDE campaign and election of any ministers. the eu is NOT like the u.s. where each state elects representatives to congress, and a NATIONWIDE vote for president. what official of the eu did you directly vote for? My vote at the European Parliamentary elections was taken into account when the MEP for this are was elected. My vote at the General Election was taken into account when the current UK Government was formed, which then sends its ministers to negotiate at the EU. Undoubtedly the unelected EU bureaucracy has too much power; democrats have been calling for reform for decades to plug that democratic deficit. The EU is far from perfect. But to say there is no democratic element to it at all is facile.
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Post by riotgrrl on Feb 5, 2010 20:22:12 GMT
Except that it is scrutinised by a directly elected Parliament and that the Council of Ministers is made up of politicians elected directly in the member states and that a condition of membership is that you are a democratic nation . . . . . .but apart from that, not a single democratic thing at all about the EU. Riot, I am surprised. I'm all in favour of the EU, but not the dystopic creation we have before us. Its only half a Parliament and the council always, well mostly, gets its way. It is a members club. You cannot seriously say that the UK has a decent democratic system, its more of an elected dictatorship. And what's more, it's rotten to the core. These are the people who end up in the council. Commissioners, like the aforementioned Kinnocks etc are on the gravy train and that's what people are uptight about. I share Winston Churchill's vision for a European political structure. I do not think the current EU is perfect; it requires drastic reform. It recognises that itself, but unfortunately its constitutional reform attempts to date have favoured centralisation over subsidiarity, but I remain hopeful that future reforms will address this. The stramash about the 'constitution' in nations like France, Denmark, Ireland, UK, etc. need to be taken on board. As to whether the UK is or is not a democratic unit to start with, we meet the criteria for it, but certainly I favour fairer voting systems and the like (like any good liberal) to further democratise the UK. Clear?
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Post by jean on Feb 5, 2010 20:28:02 GMT
Elections for MEPs are more democratic than for the Westminster Partiament, since they employ a from of PR rather than FPTP.
That's how we got a BNP MEP.
(More's the pity.)
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Post by fretslider on Feb 5, 2010 20:33:30 GMT
Riot, I am surprised. I'm all in favour of the EU, but not the dystopic creation we have before us. Its only half a Parliament and the council always, well mostly, gets its way. It is a members club. You cannot seriously say that the UK has a decent democratic system, its more of an elected dictatorship. And what's more, it's rotten to the core. These are the people who end up in the council. Commissioners, like the aforementioned Kinnocks etc are on the gravy train and that's what people are uptight about. I share Winston Churchill's vision for a European political structure. I do not think the current EU is perfect; it requires drastic reform. It recognises that itself, but unfortunately its constitutional reform attempts to date have favoured centralisation over subsidiarity, but I remain hopeful that future reforms will address this. The stramash about the 'constitution' in nations like France, Denmark, Ireland, UK, etc. need to be taken on board. As to whether the UK is or is not a democratic unit to start with, we meet the criteria for it, but certainly I favour fairer voting systems and the like (like any good liberal) to further democratise the UK. Clear? Ish. They are very loose criteria by today's standards. We need a lot more than just a fairer electoral system, funny how Scotland got one as well as a Parliament. But England is another matter. At the very least we could do with the power of recall to remove MPs such as Derek Conway, who has sat on his hands collecting the money and expenses for around three years now. Petition and referenda are also on my shopping list. But most of all we need an elected HoS who can act when Parliament goes off the rails. We set up the German system to keep the fringe cranks out (>= 5%), why can't we have the same? As for the EU it has to be a federal entity, similar to the US. The American states hate the feds so don't expect the EU states to be any different. What we have now is a set-up to preserve the members club. We could ditch one Parliament building; how nonsensical and expensive it is to move it back and forth between Bruxelles an Strasbourg!
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