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Post by riotgrrl on Feb 6, 2010 14:20:59 GMT
[ I share Winston Churchill's vision for a European political structure.? But we have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe,but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed." - - Winston Churchill. good ole winnie..could always hit the nail on the head Extract from his speech in Zurich, 1946 Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted by the great majority of people in many lands, would as if by a miracle transform the whole scene, and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and as happy as Switzerland is to-day. What is this sovereign remedy? It is to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing. www.europa-web.de/europa/02wwswww/202histo/churchil.htm
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Post by mouse on Feb 6, 2010 18:18:38 GMT
We must build a kind of United States of Europe."""" a kind of...which not..we must build a united states of europe.....but WE have OUR OWN dream and our OWN task etc etc
"""But we have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe,but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed." - - Winston Churchill."""
good ole winnie..could always hit the nail on the head....
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Post by june on Feb 6, 2010 21:39:21 GMT
Elections for MEPs are more democratic than for the Westminster Partiament, since they employ a from of PR rather than FPTP. That's how we got a BNP MEP. (More's the pity.) of course, since you don't believe in freedom of speech, you wouldn't care about how democratic the country is. remember the FACT that the bnp has exactly the same right to speak as you do That's not a fact though is it? the BNP is a political party and Jean is an individual. Jean has more rights. Besides, I think passing a personal regret about a fascist organisation gaining votes/political representation is hardly the same as decrying democracy is it? I feel you have pre judged to post before reading.
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Post by iamjumbo on Feb 6, 2010 22:41:04 GMT
i think people have a right to vote for who ever they wish.. far right,,,far left and every shade of green.... and lets be honest had the government governed the bnp would never have got a foot in the door a government is suposedly there to govern for the people on behalf of the people and follow the peoples wishes what ever those wishes may be...not to follow its own wretched agenda far too much party polliticking and agenda ridden...instead of adressing worries and concerns and far to much patronisation from those who think they know best of course, you are absolutely correct. the bnp has just as much right to campaign, and the people have just as much right to vote for them as for anyone else. even thinking about limiting such is an assault on democracy
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Post by iamjumbo on Feb 6, 2010 22:46:12 GMT
of course, since you don't believe in freedom of speech, you wouldn't care about how democratic the country is. remember the FACT that the bnp has exactly the same right to speak as you do That's not a fact though is it? the BNP is a political party and Jean is an individual. Jean has more rights. Besides, I think passing a personal regret about a fascist organisation gaining votes/political representation is hardly the same as decrying democracy is it? I feel you have pre judged to post before reading. that's not what it's about. the point is that, no matter how despicable someone or something might be, they have the same right to preach their doctrine as any of us on here do. hell, we allow gays to try and indoctrinate children for god's sake
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Post by riotgrrl on Feb 7, 2010 0:47:35 GMT
That's not a fact though is it? the BNP is a political party and Jean is an individual. Jean has more rights. Besides, I think passing a personal regret about a fascist organisation gaining votes/political representation is hardly the same as decrying democracy is it? I feel you have pre judged to post before reading. that's not what it's about. the point is that, no matter how despicable someone or something might be, they have the same right to preach their doctrine as any of us on here do. hell, we allow gays to try and indoctrinate children for god's sake Not in my country we don't. We don't 'allow gays to try to indocrtrinate our children'. That would be wrong.
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Post by jean on Feb 7, 2010 10:48:11 GMT
It was only the infamous Section 28 that ever gave anyone the idea that they were even trying to.
Maybe it 'would be wrong' - but would it be even possible?
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Post by firedancer on Feb 7, 2010 12:29:33 GMT
Oh Gawd! The EU thread turned into a climate debate thread so I started another one. Now this one is turning into a thread about homosexuality.....I give up ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Just to add... I tend to agree with Ben about the Eurozone. If Europe wanted a common currency it would probably have been better to have a United States of Europe first (if that's what Europeans want of course). As it is, for the reasons Ben outlined it is almost impossible to make so many disparate countries with different economies operate as one big unit. It may be enlightened self-interest for the richer members to rescue the poorer members but will enlightened self-interest trump human nature? I wonder........
I believe it was James Carville who said: "It's the economy stupid".
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Post by fretslider on Feb 7, 2010 12:47:20 GMT
Oh Gawd! The EU thread turned into a climate debate thread so I started another one. Now this one is turning into a thread about homosexuality.....I give up ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Just to add... I tend to agree with Ben about the Eurozone. If Europe wanted a common currency it would probably have been better to have a United States of Europe first (if that's what Europeans want of course). As it is, for the reasons Ben outlined it is almost impossible to make so many disparate countries with different economies operate as one big unit. It may be enlightened self-interest for the richer members to rescue the poorer members but will enlightened self-interest trump human nature? I wonder........ I believe it was James Carville who said: "It's the economy stupid". "it is almost impossible to make so many disparate countries with different economies operate as one big unit. " Its not easy, but its not impossible. The problem all Europeans face is not the idea, its the politicians who have constructed a members club for themselves. Do Californians love Oakies?
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Post by firedancer on Feb 7, 2010 12:52:58 GMT
Indeed fretslider, which was why I inserted that little word "almost" into the sentence.
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Post by iamjumbo on Feb 7, 2010 14:56:52 GMT
that's not what it's about. the point is that, no matter how despicable someone or something might be, they have the same right to preach their doctrine as any of us on here do. hell, we allow gays to try and indoctrinate children for god's sake Not in my country we don't. We don't 'allow gays to try to indocrtrinate our children'. That would be wrong. that makes you hypocritical hon. that is not what you were preaching on the gay fairytales thread. max nix though. the point is that if YOU want to be able to preach what you want, you have to allow EVERYONE else to preach what they want, no matter how despicable what they want may be
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Post by iamjumbo on Feb 7, 2010 14:59:45 GMT
Oh Gawd! The EU thread turned into a climate debate thread so I started another one. Now this one is turning into a thread about homosexuality.....I give up ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Just to add... I tend to agree with Ben about the Eurozone. If Europe wanted a common currency it would probably have been better to have a United States of Europe first (if that's what Europeans want of course). As it is, for the reasons Ben outlined it is almost impossible to make so many disparate countries with different economies operate as one big unit. It may be enlightened self-interest for the richer members to rescue the poorer members but will enlightened self-interest trump human nature? I wonder........ I believe it was James Carville who said: "It's the economy stupid". not at all. i was merely noting the hypocrisy of those who decry the bnp as despicable, while joyfully accepting the even moreso despicable gay agenda. of course, there are other examples, but that is the one that i chose
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Post by iamjumbo on Feb 7, 2010 15:00:59 GMT
Oh Gawd! The EU thread turned into a climate debate thread so I started another one. Now this one is turning into a thread about homosexuality.....I give up ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Just to add... I tend to agree with Ben about the Eurozone. If Europe wanted a common currency it would probably have been better to have a United States of Europe first (if that's what Europeans want of course). As it is, for the reasons Ben outlined it is almost impossible to make so many disparate countries with different economies operate as one big unit. It may be enlightened self-interest for the richer members to rescue the poorer members but will enlightened self-interest trump human nature? I wonder........ I believe it was James Carville who said: "It's the economy stupid". "it is almost impossible to make so many disparate countries with different economies operate as one big unit. " Its not easy, but its not impossible. The problem all Europeans face is not the idea, its the politicians who have constructed a members club for themselves. Do Californians love Oakies? a hell of a lot more than okies like californians
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Post by mouse on Feb 7, 2010 15:23:02 GMT
It may be enlightened self-interest for the richer members to rescue the poorer members but will enlightened self-interest trump human nature? I wonder"""" forget enlightened and stick to self interest......and a self interest forced upon european tax payers who have no desire in the main to prop up places like bulgaria..roumania etc the elite [questionable] have self interest the problems for europeans is they are very different peoples with own cultures..languages ..sociatal norms ..all being prodded to dance to the same tune....and many europeans dont care for it one little bit......
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 7, 2010 16:14:46 GMT
Wait a minute though! America is 50 States! Many of which could easily be described as ‘disparate’. You have different needs all over America, you have wealthy places and you have poor places too. You get heavy industry regions that have fallen into disrepair and need huge investments and you have wealthier places that need less. You have farming communities, urban sprawls and you have places that live tourists, internal and external.
Yet they would not dream of having 5 currencies and economic policies, far less 50. So what is the big deal? If America can have one currency for 300 million people and vastly different economic conditions both between and within States, then why is it that the Eurozone cannot manage it?
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Post by riotgrrl on Feb 7, 2010 16:26:34 GMT
Not in my country we don't. We don't 'allow gays to try to indocrtrinate our children'. That would be wrong. that makes you hypocritical hon. that is not what you were preaching on the gay fairytales thread. max nix though. the point is that if YOU want to be able to preach what you want, you have to allow EVERYONE else to preach what they want, no matter how despicable what they want may be Having a book in a classroom which depicts same-sex relationships is pretty far from 'preaching'.
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Post by riotgrrl on Feb 7, 2010 16:28:57 GMT
It may be enlightened self-interest for the richer members to rescue the poorer members but will enlightened self-interest trump human nature? I wonder"""" forget enlightened and stick to self interest......and a self interest forced upon european tax payers who have no desire in the main to prop up places like bulgaria..roumania etc the elite [questionable] have self interest the problems for europeans is they are very different peoples with own cultures..languages ..sociatal norms ..all being prodded to dance to the same tune....and many europeans dont care for it one little bit...... You are free to speak for yourself, but you don't speak for all European tax payers. Many of us would like to see the poorer countries enjoy greater prosperity - indeed, many of us would like to see greater prosperity throughout the world. Those of us raised with Judeo-Christian values believe in helping the poor.
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Post by mouse on Feb 7, 2010 16:44:29 GMT
[ You are free to speak for yourself, but you don't speak for all European tax payers. Many of us would like to see the poorer countries enjoy greater prosperity - indeed, many of us would like to see greater prosperity throughout the world. Those of us raised with Judeo-Christian values believe in helping the poor. i always speak for my self....and who is trying to speak for all european tax payers...but there is enough of a divide for it to be apparent the divide is well and truely in existance and enough discontent to be aware of the discontent and yes even anger countries earn prosperity...its not just as simple as giving handouts..work has to be done along side the handouts and the handouts have to get to the people..propping up[note the terminology] propping up ecomomies doesnt work in the long term....as we have seen in various countries in the mid east and africa..... bit like the drift of some firms to the less pricy of european and asian countries to reduce manufacturing costs and wage bills...and now theres a slow drift starting to return ...just changing countries for cheap labour doesnt help anyone long term...because improved conditions push costs up as for judeo christian values...lol.. at least this time your aknowledging they exist...very good,,very beneficial for us along with the prdestant work ethic they were too or we could have been like roumania/bulgaria/albania of course the other quote is...god helps those who help them selves..
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Post by randomvioce on Feb 7, 2010 16:44:59 GMT
Spain is a prime example. A couple of generations ago, Spain was under a dictatorship and was in a pretty bad shape in economic terms, relying on tourism for much of its revenue. After Franco died and Spain became a full democracy and joined the EU, the Spanish have received billions in EU cash and have transformed its economy and is now a richer Country and its biggest banks compete on the World stage! To the extent that they are now on the British high street! Spain’s prosperity has boosted the EU’s economy because the Spanish are now in a position to buy and sell goods and services on a more equal footing, not just cheap holidays. All that money has been put to good use.
Spain has went from a third World dictatorship ruled by a junta to a fully fledged democracy within my lifetime, thanks to the EU!
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Post by mouse on Feb 7, 2010 16:49:58 GMT
2009 Shrinking Spanish Economy January 21st, 2009 The Spanish government on Friday slashed its economic forecasts for 2009 from growth of 1.0 percent to a contraction of 1.6 percent due to the global financial crisis and warned of dark days ahead for Europe's fifth-largest economy.
Unemployment, already the highest in the European Union, will hit 15.9 percent this year, worse than the 12.5 percent forecast in July while the public sector budget deficit will clearly surpass the eurozone limit of 3.0 percent of output in 2009, it said.
The government predicts the deficit will hit 5.8 percent of GDP this year instead of around 2.0 percent as previously forecast.
"The financial crisis that exists at the moment at the global level has changed the scenario very drastically," Economy Minister Pedro Solbes told reporters following a weekly cabinet meeting which approved the new economic forecast.
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