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Post by Big Lin on Jan 23, 2010 21:41:39 GMT
Since nobody took the SLIGHTEST notice of my earlier public announcement on this thread I'm issuing a final warning.
This is a thread about gays and lesbians and NOT about paedophiles.
Any more messages that try to suggest an equivalence will be deleted and the offending poster will be issued with a formal warning.
Enough is enough!
This sort of stupidity could get my forum closed down by Proboards.
Just stop it, please.
Thank you.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jan 23, 2010 22:44:53 GMT
Quite right Lin! The fairy tales in question present or promote a homosexual "choice" or "life style". So far i'm not aware of pedophile fairy tales being presented to children!
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Post by Synonym on Mar 4, 2010 15:45:44 GMT
What is the difference between a 'homosexual fairy tale' and a heterosexual one? From what I remember most of the stories boiled down to something along the lines of person A wishing to save person B from some nasty fate, for eg. Whether A & B are men or women, gay or straight, this is pretty irrelevant to the actual story?
If by 'homosexual fairy tale' what is meant is a story where the sexuality of the protagonists is integral to the story itself, well what is the big deal. It is a story that features a facet of real life. Bit like the fact that some people actually do live in castles and ride horses, and are Monarchs, or are poor, and other such details which are involved in the tale.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Mar 5, 2010 4:44:42 GMT
What is the difference between a 'homosexual fairy tale' and a heterosexual one? From what I remember most of the stories boiled down to something along the lines of person A wishing to save person B from some nasty fate, for eg. Whether A & B are men or women, gay or straight, this is pretty irrelevant to the actual story? If by 'homosexual fairy tale' what is meant is a story where the sexuality of the protagonists is integral to the story itself, well what is the big deal. It is a story that features a facet of real life. Bit like the fact that some people actually do live in castles and ride horses, and are Monarchs, or are poor, and other such details which are involved in the tale. Dearest Octopus! A lot of us as parents would hope that our children would develope as normal heterosexuals. Nothing against homosexuals, but their life span is 10 years shorter. The suicide and alcohol and substance abuse is much higher too. I find the "King and King" fairy tale a blatant distortion of reality and not at all rich in phantasy as fairy tales generally are. I think we'd all agree that a fairy tale, which promotes cigarette smoking is bad news too. Nothing personal against cigarette smokers or homosexuals either.
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Post by Synonym on Mar 7, 2010 16:14:53 GMT
I don't think any of us want children to swordfight dangerous animals or climb up the faces of tall towers on non health&safety-approved makeshift ropes that are made out of handkerchiefs or similar, either. But do you think that the suicide and substance abuse rates are due to there being something inherent in homosexuality that causes those with this characteristic to gravitate towards these undesirable behaviours? I would have thought it more likely that the explanation is more due to the social pressures and prejudices that homosexuals face, which like the suicide rates, are higher than for heterosexuals. Stories that treat homosexuality as normal would help in these areas, I would have thought.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Mar 7, 2010 16:48:34 GMT
I don't think any of us want children to swordfight dangerous animals or climb up the faces of tall towers on non health&safety-approved makeshift ropes that are made out of handkerchiefs or similar, either. But do you think that the suicide and substance abuse rates are due to there being something inherent in homosexuality that causes those with this characteristic to gravitate towards these undesirable behaviours? I would have thought it more likely that the explanation is more due to the social pressures and prejudices that homosexuals face, which like the suicide rates, are higher than for heterosexuals. Stories that treat homosexuality as normal would help in these areas, I would have thought. Hi Octopus, I spent a lot of my youth in gay bars and had relations with both sexes. I consider myself rather street wise. Heterosexuals with family obligations live under more economical and social pressure to keep the bills paid and often succeed in keeping their children on the right track in this consumption orientated society. My hats off to them. Gays rarely experience job discrimination. if they are capable of doing the work required. The discrimination talk is not relevant. There's something about same sex relationships that are more endangered by nature than heterosexual relationships are. I know the equality popes are outraged when i say this, but so be it. Very exceptional homosexual people can have a meaningful relationship only because they are very exceptional. As a rule the girl+girl relations are more endangered by too much emotion without the "male coolness" to balance and guy+guy relations often don't get beyond physical sex. I would never present children with a homosexual fairy tale that makes homosexuality so simple and happily ever after.
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Post by mouse on Mar 16, 2010 17:56:07 GMT
i would never tell children a homosexual fairy story...in that i dont know any and cannot see any relevence a fairy story is just that,,,a fairy story...not a sex lesson
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Mar 16, 2010 22:28:41 GMT
i would never tell children a homosexual fairy story...in that i dont know any and cannot see any relevence a fairy story is just that,,,a fairy story...not a sex lesson Absolutely correct Mouse! Children shouldn't be sidetracked with promotion spots for homosexuality that are supposed to be seen as fairy tales! In colleges and universities students have been bombarded with junk literature too, like Thomas Mann's "Death in Venice", which is only about some pedophile stalking a young boy around the city of Venice! Fairy tales and literature should have something uplifting or at least stimulate the imagination! These dull PC promotions are no better than cigarette commercials!
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Post by Synonym on Mar 16, 2010 23:10:54 GMT
Whether something is being 'promoted' just because it is present seems rather relative to how one views that something in the first place. No-one talks about meat-eating being promoted or alcohol-drinking being promoted, just because someone drinks some mead or someone incidentally happens to be in the woods hunting, in a scene in one of these tales. For something to be being 'promoted', wouldn't it have to not just be there in the background, but to be portrayed in such a light that it is made to seem very desirable and a very good thing to do/be.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Mar 17, 2010 0:17:51 GMT
Whether something is being 'promoted' just because it is present seems rather relative to how one views that something in the first place. No-one talks about meat-eating being promoted or alcohol-drinking being promoted, just because someone drinks some mead or someone incidentally happens to be in the woods hunting, in a scene in one of these tales. For something to be being 'promoted', wouldn't it have to not just be there in the background, but to be portrayed in such a light that it is made to seem very desirable and a very good thing to do/be. Hi Octopus! If you go back on this thread to the "King and King" YouTube video you'll see that the "happily ever after presentation" is simply a promotion of homosexuality. A dull story with less imagination than a cigarette commercial!
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Post by Synonym on Mar 17, 2010 18:27:16 GMT
That is only a specific example of one. I'm sure there are terrible 'heterosexual' fairy takes as well.
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Post by mouse on Mar 19, 2010 8:24:03 GMT
i would never tell children a homosexual fairy story...in that i dont know any and cannot see any relevence a fairy story is just that,,,a fairy story...not a sex lesson Absolutely correct Mouse! Children shouldn't be sidetracked with promotion spots for homosexuality that are supposed to be seen as fairy tales! In colleges and universities students have been bombarded with junk literature too, like Thomas Mann's "Death in Venice", which is only about some pedophile stalking a young boy around the city of Venice! Fairy tales and literature should have something uplifting or at least stimulate the imagination! These dull PC promotions are no better than cigarette commercials! this has to be one of the daftest threads..... and while REAL fairy tales have a dark side....we tell our kids fairy tales for fun or tradition not to give them a sex lesson on hetro or homosexuality FOR HEAVENS SAKE DOES every thing have to be about sex...cant we just acept some things as fluff and let our children use imagination and be ...just children enjoying a story
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Post by mouse on Mar 19, 2010 8:27:39 GMT
That is only a specific example of one. I'm sure there are terrible 'heterosexual' fairy takes as well. , like Thomas Mann's "Death in Venice", but manns story is not and never was a fairy tale rumple stilskin..snow white..beauty and the beast..the little match girl....they are fairy stories etc good v evil..etc etc
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Post by jade on Mar 19, 2010 9:08:59 GMT
there was always something definitely not quite right about the old man and Pinocchio
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Post by trubble on Mar 19, 2010 9:49:57 GMT
For once we are in complete agreement, Mouse. lol! ;D
That's the nub of the matter. All this over-analysis and preoccupation with whatever the current issue is drives me insane.
I know lots of people have strong pro and anti feelings about the Harry Potter stories but as my daughter was the right age for them when they first appeared I remember with huge joy and delight how wonderful they were. What a breath of fresh air the first book was at the time; each book was just a bloody great read and they revolutionised parent-child quality bedtime story telling and children's desire to read to themselves.
All that good work is forgotten now.
What followed with wide success was disheartening to say the least. From outlandishly laughable claims of occultism brainwashing our children to the pointless reveal that Dumbledore was gay, there wasn't an issue that some group or wise guy tried to pin on Potter.
I'm just so thankful that I and Mini-Trubs got to enjoy them for the great straightforward good v evil tales they were. I feel privileged!
When Rowling was first being published, Jaqueline Wilson was the leading author; her books are still the most borrowed in the libraries. They are full of 'alternative' families and that's one of the reasons they are so popular with kids. They speak of households other than Mummy, Daddy, pet dog, big sister, nice house etc. Clearly there is a need and want for other stories to be told than the traditional happy home stories. But despite my daughter living one of those 'alternative' lives to some extent, and despite enjoying Wilson as a good author, she found the constant intrusion of issues to be a real bore. Depressing and somewhat pious. Stifling of imagination in some ways.
There's room for all types of tales, the more the merrier and variety is good for us all etc... but adults writing stories especially to educate kids always miss the point.
I don't read Alexander McColl Smith (No1 Ladies Detective Agency etc) but I found myself attending a talk he was giving recently. He's a wonderfully entertaining speaker and I recommend seeing him if you get the chance.
He has a book of Proust quotes in his home library. It's indexed so that you can look up any topic and find a relevant quote for it. Knitting, ship building, spaghetti, you name it. He suggests that when in doubt it's always a good idea to quote Proust. I love that idea.
"There are perhaps no days of our childhood we lived so fully as those we believe we left without having lived them: those we spent with a favourite book."
-Proust.
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Post by mouse on Mar 19, 2010 12:34:00 GMT
adults preaching shouldnt be published imo....which is why i like rowling and why the beano and hotspur comics etc were so popular...they were for kids not a message
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jul 5, 2011 22:25:44 GMT
I supposed the PC popes would be outraged, if the children preferred to read a heterosexual fairy tale entitled "King & Queen", instead of this "King&King" PC agenda stuff!www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/offbeat/110525/wanderlust-sexual-equality-norwegian-kindergartens QUOTE: Wanderlust: Norway's gender-bending kindergartners Why does Norway have the smallest gap between genders? Ask a toddler.
OSLO, Norway – The children’s book “King & King” starts out like many other classic fairy tales. Once upon a time, on the tallest hill above the town lived a queen, who decided it was time for her prince to marry. But the prince didn’t like any of the princesses paraded in front of him. And that’s when things got off the beaten path, so to speak. The prince fell in love with a brother of one of the princesses and although the whole thing created a bit of a royal scandal at first, the queen — single mother by the sound of things — ultimately came to the conclusion the prince’s happiness is of utmost importance and encouraged him to follow his heart. The two princes became king & king and lived happily ever after. When this book — translated from Dutch — was read to second graders in Massachusetts as a part of a “diverse wedding” theme day at school, it caused a national uproar. So much so that in 2006, concerned parents filed a federal lawsuit against the school district of Estabrook Elementary School in Lexington, claiming the school gave “sexual education without parental notification” and romanticized homosexual relationships. Not so in Norway. Here, the book has been widely endorsed by teachers and parents ever since it became recommended reading in kindergartens last year, along with other titles, such as “Malin’s Mother Gets Married to Lisa.” Other non-traditional stories have been introduced as well. The book “Snill” talks about a girl so nice she blends in with the tapestry. Another one tells a story about a boy frightened of his aggressive father. These book suggestions are a part of an instructional manual, “Toolbox for Gender-Conscious and Equitable Early Childhood Education Centers,” that was distributed to kindergartens in Norway by an organization called Reform, Resource Center for Men, and funded by the European Commission. The kit includes methods on how to implement gender equality into the curriculum of kindergartens and trains teachers to “push out the stereotypical, restrictive gender images” that children acquire from a very young age from the media, their families and general society. The authors write in the manual that one of those methods is to change the roles in traditional fairy tales, where “the wolves and dragons are bad, princes are brave and princesses wait passively to be rescued,” and to let children react to the different scenarios, be it gay princes or princess warriors.
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Post by june on Jul 7, 2011 21:11:33 GMT
so what?
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Post by Liberator on Jul 7, 2011 22:07:38 GMT
this has to be one of the daftest threads..... and while REAL fairy tales have a dark side....we tell our kids fairy tales for fun or tradition not to give them a sex lesson on hetro or homosexuality FOR HEAVENS SAKE DOES every thing have to be about sex...cant we just acept some things as fluff and let our children use imagination and be ...just children enjoying a story I've just remembered something even dafter, in that Enid Blyton's Noddy books were re-written some years ago to remove possible homosexual references like sharing a bed with Big Ears and spanking (as well as golliwogs). All they need to do then, is to get hold of some original Noddy (and being Norwegian, explain that golliwogs are a sort of troll) As I see it, the kids know far too little to have any hangups but the adult are doing their damndest to teach them theirs! They should also learn to look into the history of genuine folk myth and understand that archetypes are single aspects of human character on the cosmic scale (in other words gods), not role model ideals to be emulated. It is possible to have female warriors and male nursemaids, but on the whole, children are linked more obviously with women and war with men, so the reduction of human activity to war and nothing more, and to fertility and nothing more, inspire male and female images respectively. Yes, Inanna was some kind of war goddess and Athene appears fully armed, but her fight at least was on the intellectual level. Do children actually think to themselves "Can't do that because in the stories only the other sex does it?" or does that disappointed come when parents tell them that they are the wrong sex for it? All this worry about gender stereotyping (which I concede should be of concern in stories that are not myth) comes unstuck considering how many protagonists in children's stories are not even human! Is it going to worry girls that Peter Rabbit and Jeremy Fisher are not Petra and Geraldine when it obviously does not worry them that one is a rabbit and the other a frog!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2011 7:10:59 GMT
The Tale of Samuel Whiskers was my favourite Potter, because Tom Kitten's sisters ended up as the professional rat-catchers while he was frightened of anything bigger than a mouse.
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