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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jan 6, 2010 17:56:13 GMT
Everybody should read this, maybe you'll see the "change" that was voted in.
This is one of the most eloquently put descriptions of what small business is all about that I have ever read. It will take a few minutes to read, but it is the reality of the world we live and work in today and what future we may have to deal with. See what you think...
{I learned a lot from this e-mail}.
The Employee Meeting: I would like to start by thanking you for attending this meeting, though it's not like you had much of a choice. After all, attendance was mandatory. I'm also glad many of you accepted my invitation to your family members to be here as well. I have a few remarks to make to all of you, and then we'll retire to the ballroom for a great lunch and some employee awards.
I felt that this meeting was important enough to close all 12 of our tire and automotive shops today so that you could be here. To reassure you, everybody is being paid for the day --- except me. Since our stores are closed we're making no money. That economic loss is mine to sustain. Carrington Automotive has 157 full time employees and around 30 additional part-timers... All of you are here and I thank you for that.
When you walked into this auditorium you were handed a rather thick 78-page document. Many of you have already taken a peek. You were probably surprised to see that it's my personal tax return for 2008. Those of you who are adept at reading these tax returns will see that last year my taxable income was $534,000.00. Now I'm sure this seems rather high to many of you. So ... let's talk about this tax return.
Carrington Automotive Enterprises is what we call a Sub-S - a Subchapter S corporation. The name comes from a particular part of our tax code. Sub-S status means that the income from all 12 of our stores is reported on my personal tax return. Businesses that report their income on the owner's personal tax return are referred to as "small businesses." So, you see now that this $534,000 is really the total taxable income - the total combined profit from all 12 of our stores. That works out to an average of a bit over $44,000 per store.
Why did I feel it important for you to see my actual 2008 tax return? Well, there's a lot of rhetoric being thrown around today about taxes, small businesses and rich people. To the people in charge in Washington right now I'm a wealthy American making over a half-million dollars a year. Most Americans would agree: I'm just another rich guy; after all ... I had over a half-million in income last year, right? In this room we know that the reality is that I'm a small business owner who runs 12 retail establishments and employs 187 people. Now here's something that shouldn't surprise you, but it will: Just under 100 percent ... make that 99.7 percent of all employers in this country are small businesses, just like ours. Every one of these businesses reports their income on a personal income tax return. You need to understand that small businesses like ours are responsible for about 80 percent of all private sector jobs in this country, and about 70 percent of all jobs that have been created over the past year. You also need to know that when you hear some politician talking about rich people who earn over $200,000 or $500,000 a year, they're talking about the people who create the jobs. The people who are now running the show in Washington have been talking for months about raising taxes on wealthy Americans. I already know that in two years my federal income taxes are going to go up by about 4.5 percent. That happens when Obama and the Democrats allow the Bush tax cuts to expire. When my taxes climb by 4.5 percent the Democrats will be on television saying that this really isn't a tax increase. They'll explain that the Bush tax cuts have expired .. nothing more. Here at Carrington we'll know that almost 5% has been taken right off of our bottom line. And that means it will be coming off your bottom line.
Numbers are boring, I know ... but let's talk a bit more about that $534,000. That's the money that was left last year from company revenues after I paid all of the salaries and expenses of running this business. Now I could have kept every penny of that for myself, but that would have left us with nothing to grow our business, to attract new customers and to hire new employees. You're aware that we've been talking about opening new stores in Virginia Beach and Newport News. To do that I will have to buy or lease property, construct a building and purchase inventory. I also have to hire additional people to work in those stores. These people wouldn't immediately be earning their pay. So, where do you think the money for all of this comes from? Right out of our profits .. right out of that $534,000. I need to advertise to bring customers in, especially in these tough times. Where do you think that money comes from? Oh sure, I can count it as an expense when I file my next income tax return .. but for right now that comes from either current revenues or last year's profits. Revenues right now aren't all that hot ... so do the math. A good effective advertising campaign might cost us more than $300,000.
Is this all starting to come together for you now?
Right now the Democrats are pushing a nationalized health care plan that, depending on who's doing the talking, will add anywhere from another two percent to an additional 4.6 percent to my taxes.. If I add a few more stores, which I would like to do, and if the economy improves, my taxable income ... our business income ... could go over one million dollars! If that happens the Democrats have yet another tax waiting, another five percent plus! I've really lost track of all of the new government programs the Democrats and President Obama are proposing that they claim they will be able to finance with new taxes on what they call "wealthy Americans.”
And while we're talking about health care, let me explain something else to you. I understand that possibly your biggest complaint with our company is that we don't provide you with health insurance. That's because as your employer I believe that it is my responsibility to provide you with a safe workplace and a fair wage and to do all that I can to preserve and grow this company that provides us all with income. I no more have a responsibility to provide you with health insurance than I do with life, auto or homeowner's insurance. As you know, I have periodically invited agents for health insurance companies here to provide you with information on private health insurance plans.
The Democrats are proposing to levy yet another tax against Carrington in the amount of 8 percent of my payroll as a penalty for not providing you with health insurance. You should know that if they do this I will be reducing every person's salary or hourly wage by that same 8 percent. This will not be done to put any more money in my pocket. It will be done to make sure that I don't suffer financially from the Democrat's efforts to place our healthcare under the control of the federal government. It is your health, not mine. It is your healthcare, not mine. These are your expenses, not mine. If you think I'm wrong about all this, I would sure love to hear your reasoning. Try to understand what I'm telling you here. Those people that Obama and the Democrats call "wealthy Americans" are, in very large part, America's small business owners. I'm one of them. You have the evidence, and surely you don't think that the owner of a bunch of tire stores is anything special. That $534,000 figure on my income tax return puts me squarely in Democrat crosshairs when it comes to tax increases.
Let's be clear about this ... crystal clear. Any federal tax increase on me is going to cost you money, not me. Any new taxes on Carrington Automotive will be new taxes that you, or the people I don't hire to staff the new stores I won't be building, will be paying. Do you understand what I'm telling you? You've heard about things rolling downhill, right? Fine ... then you need to know that taxes, like that other stuff, roll downhill. Now you and I may understand that you are not among those that the Democrats call "wealthy Americans," but when this "tax the rich" thing comes down you are going to be standing at the bottom of the mud slide, if you get my drift. That's life in the big city, my friends ... where elections have consequences.
You know our economy is very weak right now. I've pledged to get us through this without layoffs or cuts in your wages and benefits. It's too bad the politicians can't get us through this without attacking our profits. To insure our survival I have to take a substantial portion of that $534,000 and set it aside for unexpected expenses and a worsening economy. Trouble is, the government is eyeing that money too ... and they have the guns. If they want it, they can take it.
I don't want to make this too long. There's a great lunch waiting for us all. But you need to understand what's happening here. I've worked hard for 23 years to create this business. There were many years where I couldn't take a penny in income because every dollar was being dedicated to expanding the business. There were tough times when it took every dollar of revenues to replenish our inventory and cover your paychecks. During those times I earned nothing. If you want to see those tax returns, just let me know.
OK ... I know I'm repeating myself here. I don't hire stupid people, and you are probably getting it now. So let me just ramble for a few more minutes. Most Americans don't realize that when the Democrats talk about raising taxes on people making more than $250 thousand a year, they're talking about raising taxes on small businesses. The U.S. Treasury Department says that six out of every ten individuals in this country with incomes of more than $280,000 are actually small business owners. About one-half of the income in this country that would be subject to these increased taxes is from small businesses like ours. Depending on how many of these wonderful new taxes the Democrats manage to pass, this company could see its tax burden increase by as much as $60,000...Perhaps more.
I know a lot of you voted for President Obama.. A lot of you voted for Democrats across the board. Whether you voted out of support for some specific policies, or because you liked his slogans, you need to learn one very valuable lesson from this election. Elections have consequences. You might have thought it would be cool to have a president who looks like you; or a president who is young, has a buff body, and speaks eloquently when there's a teleprompter in the neighborhood. Maybe you liked his promises to tax the rich. Maybe you believed his promise not to raise taxes on people earning less than a certain amount. Maybe you actually bought into his promise to cut taxes on millions of Americans who actually don't pay income taxes in the first place. Whatever the reason .. your vote had consequences; and here they are.
Bottom line? I'm not taking this hit alone. As soon as the Democrats manage to get their tax increases on the books, I'm going to take steps to make sure that my family isn't affected. When you own the business, that is what you're allowed to do. I built this business over a period of 23 years, and I'm not going to see my family suffer because we have a president and a congress who think that wealth is distributed rather than earned. Any additional taxes, of whatever description, that President Obama and the Democrats inflict on this business will come straight out of any funds I have set aside for expansion or pay and benefit increases. Any plans I might have had to hire additional employees for new stores will be put aside. Any plans for raises for the people I now have working for me will be shelved. Year-end bonuses might well be eliminated. That may sound rough, but that's the reality.
You're going to continue to hear a lot of anti-wealth rhetoric out there from the media and from the left. You can chose to believe what you wish ... but when it comes to Carrington Automotive you will know the truth. The books are open to any of you at any time. I have nothing to hide. I would hope that other small business owners out there would hold meetings like this one, but I know it won't happen that often. One of the lessons to be learned here is that taxes ... all taxes ... and all regulatory costs that are placed on businesses anywhere in this country, will eventually be passed right on down to individuals; individuals such as yourself. This hasn't been about admonishing anyone and it hasn't been about issuing threats. This is part of the education you should have received in the government schools, but didn't...Class is now dismissed.
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Post by beth on Jan 6, 2010 18:40:33 GMT
My first question to the fictitious small business owner would be to wonder how he has structured his business. There are various ways to lower personal tax burdens, and since they have been options since long before GWB took office, I don't think they will be effected by the expiration of Bush's tax breaks. Also, I don't think Bush was quite as pro-benefits for the wealthy as many would like to believe. "Haven't we already given money to rich people.... Shouldn't we be giving money to the middle?" - President George W. Bush in November 2002, acknowledging to advisers that he knew his tax cuts were giveaways to the super-wealthy.
(then Dick Cheney apparently told him to sit down and shut up)
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Post by beth on Jan 6, 2010 18:56:39 GMT
Furthermore, this "business meeting speech" is a conservative propaganda piece, published all over the web on right leaning blogs and opinion sites (where it is labeled "fiction" - though, fo course, I do not believe you meant to mislead anyone, das) . Here is a response from Gus Nicholson in Denver who was sent the "transcript" in email by a conservative friend. ---- Dear Friends,
It's all right to rail against Democrats and those who voted them in, but please don't forget the reason they did was because it certainly seemed, even if the owner of this small business doesn't think so, that somehow, the so-called Middle Class was subsidizing those in wealthier tax brackets. After all, while the owner of Carrington Automotive has the right to deduct all those expenses from his income tax return that relate to his business, his employees don't have businesses they can do that with. That means that even if they could get health insurance at a reasonable price, how much of that cost could they deduct from their federal tax bill? I believe that number is capped at a percentage of a percentage of total reportable income.
Not so for the business owner.
But, if you really want to cast this debate in the light of what the Democrats are doing to re-distribute the hard-earned wealth of this nation's business owners to the undeserving masses, let's give the Republicans some equal time. Wasn't it they who decided to rubber stamp a reckless and incompetent administration by reducing federal taxes while at the same time increasing their spending by fighting wars whose expenditures were kept out of all the federal budgets they submitted for Congress's approval during all the time they were in office?
Today we know it didn't matter to the Republicans because they knew Americans have very short memories and attention spans and would soon forget it was they who drove us into the financial mess the country is in right now. After all, they inherited a federal budget surplus from the previous administration. Heck, Americans, not remembering those irresponsibilities, would probably even blame the current Democratic administration for the 10% unemployment, the trillion dollar deficit, the jobless recovery and the corporate welfare doled out by the economic recovery laws they passed before they left office and the Democrats had no choice but to follow or else this mess would have grown even bigger.
Had we taken that estimated $80 billion per year and more that paid annually for the wars and multiplied it by the number of years the Republicans held power, couldn't we have paid for a single payer health insurance system similar to Medicare and Social Security which is now on the verge of bankruptcy because the Republicans looted those systems to pay for the wars they lied about? I think the answer to that would have to be yes. And, what about the corporate giveaway law that precluded Medicare from negotiating drug prices? How was that justified?
It's all right to blame Democrats for trying to "re-distribute" the wealth built up by hard working entrepreneurs. I know, because I am also a hard working entrepreneur. But, it is not all right to ignore the fact that while the Republicans were dismantling the federal bureaucracy that could have helped thousands of Americans left homeless and/or destitute in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, while they doled out millions in favors guided by their favorite lobbyists and attempted to destroy their competition by gerrymandering election maps all over the country, the Republicans are not the saviors of our nation any more than Democrats are.
Cutting taxes at the federal level which force cuts in state budgets or necessitate increased taxes and fees at the local level is still a tax, no matter how you label them. All the Republicans did was shift the burden from Washington to state capitals, cities and counties everywhere else. And, if you don't believe that, take a poll of governors around the country, both Democratic and Republican and see the messes they are dealing with.
As the Health Insurance reform debate unfolds and Congress and the President play out their agendas, let's remember one thing. Health care costs have been climbing toward 40% of the nation's GDP by 2020. If a family is spending 40% of its budget on healthcare insurance and expenses, what's left to spend on food, clothing and education, let alone shelter or an occasional vacation? That's right, a whole lot less. So, that debate is not just about socializing medicine, which is not the plan of the Democrats. It's not about pre-empting the free market system which is also not the plan of the Democrats. It's about common sense. It's about recognizing that while it's all right to use your great big well-funded lobby to fool the people into thinking you're the victim here, I dare any consumer to tell me he's satisfied with the 54% increase in health insurance premiums the private insurers have hoisted on the public this year alone. I dare the health insurers to tell me they have not benefited from their exemption from federal anti-trust laws.
There may well be Republican politicians whose views and values are worth voting for, just as there are Democrats of equal worth. But, one thing I know for sure. As a nation, we have transcended the simplicity of our national politics and can no longer rely on any one party to deliver rules and policies to us that we can simply accept as an alternative truth. A tax is a tax whether it's a penalty for not carrying mandatory health insurance just as much as is a tax cut that forces another government agency to pick up the slack.
This is America. If our expectations are to have the best armed forces of anyone on the planet, if our expectation is to fund the best public schools, to have the best local fire departments and police, the best public water and transportation systems, the best health care systems in the world, then our expectations come with a price tag. Whether it's the Democrats or the Republicans that determine what's on that price tag no longer matters to me. What matters is who is telling the truth. The previous administration fed us lies, nearly bankrupted the nation and what's left of them is suddenly trying to blame it on these guys who inherited the inevitabilities of their lies. So, why is anyone surprised that we both voted them out and the other guys in? Tell the truth, and maybe, just maybe, you can have your turn at solving some problems while avoiding creating bigger ones in the process. Best wishes, - Gus Nicholson, an American citizen
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Post by Big Lin on Jan 6, 2010 19:08:00 GMT
My first question to the fictitious small business owner would be to wonder how he has structured his business. There are various ways to lower personal tax burdens, and since they have been options since long before GWB took office, I don't think they will be effected by the expiration of Bush's tax breaks. Also, I don't think Bush was quite as pro-benefits for the wealthy as many would like to believe. "Haven't we already given money to rich people.... Shouldn't we be giving money to the middle?" - President George W. Bush in November 2002, acknowledging to advisers that he knew his tax cuts were giveaways to the super-wealthy. (then Dick Cheney apparently told him to sit down and shut up) Beth, I don't know why you assume that small business owners are 'fictitious.' I run a small business myself and have lots of friends who do the same. Millions of people work for small businesses and we are all struggling to keep going, especially with the current economic situation. That doesn't mean that the elimination of poverty shouldn't be one of the main targets of any government, irrespective of party. We can argue over the methods of doing that but to dispute that it OUGHT to be one of the principal goals of ANY government is surely blindingly obvious. I feel seriously tempted to put forward my own solution to the economic problems of the world but the trouble is that they are so radical and would be so unpopular that no political party would have the guts to introduce them in a democracy!
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Post by randomvioce on Jan 6, 2010 19:41:13 GMT
Beth, I don't know why you assume that small business owners are 'fictitious.' I run a small business myself and have lots of friends who do the same. Millions of people work for small businesses and we are all struggling to keep going, especially with the current economic situation. You have to try and understand why we are in dire staights though Lin. The credit market has dried up and people are not spendng money. People on lower incomes have stopped spending money because they can no longer get easy credit. That has effected everyone else, Lin. People hawho rely on people to shop with borrowed money are finding the tills empty at the end of the month and they are spending less. They businesses that used to rely on these middle class earners spending money have suffered too and so on. We were told that the rich used to keep the poor going and Thatcherism and Reaganomics was built on this so called 'trickle down effect', but if the credit crunch has taught us anything, it teaches us if you remove money from the poor and EVERYONE suffers. It is not the 'trickle down' effect' it is the economic driver, it is the trickle UP effect that drives the real economy. Give a poor person a fiver and he will spend it. By the time enough fivers are spent, the middle class get rich! What BA's garage owner fails to realise is that the people who use his shops are those on lower incomes and if they get pay cuts then everyone will suffer and that will effect his bottom line. If people can get good health insurance then they will become better workers and not suffer illnesses as much and they will spend money on cars. The highest growth levels across the board in this Country was when we started to the NHS because people had more money to spend, we had full employment and an educated workforce thanks to unversial health care and universial education. We came out of the post war years into the sixties 'Never had it so good'. That only stopped when we made 3 million unemployed, which caused huge areas of the Country to lose money and more importantly, lose economic growth. When the taxpayer stopped propping up these areas, the North and West's economies collasped. Now the taxpayer spends more in the de-industrialised parts of the Country than ever before.
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Post by beth on Jan 6, 2010 20:08:40 GMT
Quote: Re: Wealth Redistribution by Government « Reply #3 Today at 7:08pm » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Today at 6:40pm, beth wrote: My first question to the fictitious small business owner would be to wonder how he has structured his business. There are various ways to lower personal tax burdens, and since they have been options since long before GWB took office, I don't think they will be effected by the expiration of Bush's tax breaks. Also, I don't think Bush was quite as pro-benefits for the wealthy as many would like to believe. "Haven't we already given money to rich people.... Shouldn't we be giving money to the middle?" - President George W. Bush in November 2002, acknowledging to advisers that he knew his tax cuts were giveaways to the super-wealthy. (then Dick Cheney apparently told him to sit down and shut up) Beth, I don't know why you assume that small business owners are 'fictitious.' I run a small business myself and have lots of friends who do the same. Millions of people work for small businesses and we are all struggling to keep going, especially with the current economic situation. That doesn't mean that the elimination of poverty shouldn't be one of the main targets of any government, irrespective of party. We can argue over the methods of doing that but to dispute that it OUGHT to be one of the principal goals of ANY government is surely blindingly obvious. I feel seriously tempted to put forward my own solution to the economic problems of the world but the trouble is that they are so radical and would be so unpopular that no political party would have the guts to introduce them in a democracy! Lin, of course I don't assume small business owners are "fictitious" - but this, particular, business owner IS fictitious. Go to Google and type, in The Employee Meeting, and you'll find links to numerous sites that display and talk about this particular "transcript". Even the Republican/Conservative sites label it fictitious. It sounds good, but is actually a piece of right wing propaganda. These are very common - set up to look like an average U.S. citizen, but really products of the right's PR arm. If you're going to read the das post, please go on to read the response by a *real* person (and small business owner) that I posted, one post down from the message you're quoting here. BTW, my husband owns a small business, so I am directly impacted and somewhat familiar with the choices and tax situation.
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Post by beth on Jan 6, 2010 20:12:25 GMT
Beth, I don't know why you assume that small business owners are 'fictitious.' I run a small business myself and have lots of friends who do the same. Millions of people work for small businesses and we are all struggling to keep going, especially with the current economic situation. You have to try and understand why we are in dire staights though Lin. The credit market has dried up and people are not spendng money. People on lower incomes have stopped spending money because they can no longer get easy credit. That has effected everyone else, Lin. People hawho rely on people to shop with borrowed money are finding the tills empty at the end of the month and they are spending less. They businesses that used to rely on these middle class earners spending money have suffered too and so on. We were told that the rich used to keep the poor going and Thatcherism and Reaganomics was built on this so called 'trickle down effect', but if the credit crunch has taught us anything, it teaches us if you remove money from the poor and EVERYONE suffers. It is not the 'trickle down' effect' it is the economic driver, it is the trickle UP effect that drives the real economy. Give a poor person a fiver and he will spend it. By the time enough fivers are spent, the middle class get rich! What BA's garage owner fails to realise is that the people who use his shops are those on lower incomes and if they get pay cuts then everyone will suffer and that will effect his bottom line. If people can get good health insurance then they will become better workers and not suffer illnesses as much and they will spend money on cars. The highest growth levels across the board in this Country was when we started to the NHS because people had more money to spend, we had full employment and an educated workforce thanks to unversial health care and universial education. We came out of the post war years into the sixties 'Never had it so good'. That only stopped when we made 3 million unemployed, which caused huge areas of the Country to lose money and more importantly, lose economic growth. When the taxpayer stopped propping up these areas, the North and West's economies collasped. Now the taxpayer spends more in the de-industrialised parts of the Country than ever before. Excellent post, RV. Exalt to you.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jan 9, 2010 2:15:01 GMT
Beth - From reading your post you seem to believe that the economy is like the storied perpetual motion machine.
All we need to do is confiscate their earnings from the productive members of society, give those confiscated funds to the non-productive members of society, and watch them spend the money thereby boosting the economy and lifting all of us into a higher income bracket. It sounds too good to be true.
That's because it is too good to be true.
I don't think I want to hand over my life savings to Obama on the theory that he's going to give my money to poor people who are going to spend it and then it will come back to me so I'll then be better off. Is that really your theory? That's what it sounds like.
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Post by beth on Jan 9, 2010 5:32:45 GMT
Beth - From reading your post you seem to believe that the economy is like the storied perpetual motion machine. All we need to do is confiscate their earnings from the productive members of society, give those confiscated funds to the non-productive members of society, and watch them spend the money thereby boosting the economy and lifting all of us into a higher income bracket. It sounds too good to be true. That's because it is too good to be true. I don't think I want to hand over my life savings to Obama on the theory that he's going to give my money to poor people who are going to spend it and then it will come back to me so I'll then be better off. Is that really your theory? That's what it sounds like. Do you think? Funny, reading back up the thread, I don't see anything I've written that could be construed in any such way, but it's late, perhaps I'm missing something. If you don't mind, please quote the post to which you've made reference. Then, I'll be happy to respond. The one thing I'll offer right now is that, IMO, trickle down economics does not work as some would like us to believe. As I said before, my husband owns a small business, and while times are hard right now and business is down some, we're doing OK. We are able to pay our taxes without a lot of weeping and wailing. I think you should face up to and admit the transcript in the origin post is not a "real" document, but a PR piece by the right. Some seem a bit confused about that. If you want to be helpful, go out and buy a coat or jacket at Land's End. I hear they are hurting. They sell mid priced products of good quality and deserve your support. I just bought each of my daughters a parka they love. Go - do - you won't regret it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2010 8:46:42 GMT
This speech has to be a wind-up, surely? In the UK it wouldn't be out of place in a left-wing satire.
For a start, closing down someone's workplace, making them travel somewhere else for a meeting and then graciously reassuring them they will get paid would trigger some fine retorts from any normal workforce. Perhaps it did and the heckling wasn't reported.
Then take this paragraph: "Numbers are boring, I know ... but let's talk a bit more about that $534,000. That's the money that was left last year from company revenues after I paid all of the salaries and expenses of running this business. Now I could have kept every penny of that for myself, but that would have left us with nothing to grow our business, to attract new customers and to hire new employees. You're aware that we've been talking about opening new stores in Virginia Beach and Newport News. To do that I will have to buy or lease property, construct a building and purchase inventory. I also have to hire additional people to work in those stores. These people wouldn't immediately be earning their pay. So, where do you think the money for all of this comes from? Right out of our profits .. right out of that $534,000. I need to advertise to bring customers in, especially in these tough times. Where do you think that money comes from? Oh sure, I can count it as an expense when I file my next income tax return .. but for right now that comes from either current revenues or last year's profits. Revenues right now aren't all that hot ... so do the math. A good effective advertising campaign might cost us more than $300,000."
Would staff be nodding sagely and offering to take wage cuts in gratitude at their employer's bounty ? I think not! Even the most naive will realise that losses and expenses can be offset against profits for tax purposes - and I'm quite sure that the speaker won't be spending a single penny unless he can time it to perfection to maximise his tax position.
And his threat to cut employees' wages if he is fined for not providing healthcare will hopefully lead the government to change their mind over the whole scheme.They should just lock this numbskull in jail until he complies. I'm sure his businesses can manage without him.
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Post by mouse on Jan 9, 2010 10:26:39 GMT
to give my money to poor people who are going to spend it "" perhaps the question is WHY are there poor people ? is it because they are feckless...have no ambition..or is it because they are thick...make the wrong choices..make no effort to help them selves..spurn education ..etc etc i have no desire to help those who WILL not help them selves those who CANNOT help them selves are a different kettle of fish...by cannot i mean the disabled..not the idle..drug adicted..drunks..gamblers or jusy plain stupid
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Post by randomvioce on Jan 9, 2010 11:51:40 GMT
I don't think I want to hand over my life savings to Obama on the theory that he's going to give my money to poor people who are going to spend it and then it will come back to me so I'll then be better off. Is that really your theory? That's what it sounds like. That is exactly how capitalism works. Money goes trough the system as many times as possible and the more transactions in the economy, the higher the GDP. Where do you ACTUALLY think all those profits come from? It comes from the fact that millions of people spend money in the economy, the more times that money is recycled trough the economy the bigger it grows. Think about it for a second. Take all the guys from the City and stick them on Mars without a single penny. How rich would the y be in fifty years time and where would that wealth come from? They could hardly sell each other stock of companies that don't exist, can they? They would need millions of people producing wealth for them to gather up.
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Post by mouse on Jan 9, 2010 13:19:41 GMT
""That is exactly how capitalism works.""and exactly how any monetary system works
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jan 9, 2010 15:05:12 GMT
So all we need to do is convince Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, the Mexican drug lords, and the Oil Sheiks to give their Billions to Obama and then we wait for the money to roll in. Obama will give all of that money to the poor (but only the ones who pledge to vote for the Democrats). They're spend every penny of it. The economy will be red-hot. Money will flow like water over Niagara Falls. We're all going to be rich. I think I'll take my zillions and buy a large chunk of waterfront property for building a mansion in Monaco. What will you do with your share?
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Post by Big Lin on Jan 9, 2010 15:32:46 GMT
A crash course in basic economics.
1 Communism - takes from everyone so everyone is poor 2 Socialism - takes from everyone so most people are poor 3 Capitalism - takes from the poor and gives to the rich 4 Distributism - gives to everyone so nobody is poor
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Post by randomvioce on Jan 9, 2010 16:42:00 GMT
So all we need to do is convince Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, the Mexican drug lords, and the Oil Sheiks to give their Billions to Obama and then we wait for the money to roll in. Obama will give all of that money to the poor (but only the ones who pledge to vote for the Democrats). They're spend every penny of it. The economy will be red-hot. Money will flow like water over Niagara Falls. We're all going to be rich. I think I'll take my zillions and buy a large chunk of waterfront property for building a mansion in Monaco. What will you do with your share? That is exactly how an ecomony grows. Where did Warren Buffet and Bill Gates get their vast fortunes from? Million of people bought computers and bought an operating system! Those people ONLY had money because the money cycled through the system. Without 100s of millions of people making billions of transactions then the rich would never get rich. People have worked a lot harder than Bill gets and been a lot poorer than him. No-one can make a profit until people have an income.
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Post by peterl on Jan 9, 2010 22:43:11 GMT
4 Distributism - gives to everyone so nobody is poor Or rich depending on your point of view
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Post by Big Lin on Jan 9, 2010 23:56:17 GMT
Very true, Peter, and that's a point in its favour in my book!
When any country lets the gap between rich and poor get too big - like it is in Britain and America - it's NOT good news for freedom and democracy.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jan 10, 2010 14:36:16 GMT
The gap between rich and poor is relatively small in Britain and the USA. It's countries like Haiti and Somalia that have a huge gap.
When government steps in and attempts to regulate wealth distribution you wind up with Cuba and the Soviet Union.
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Post by randomvioce on Jan 10, 2010 15:29:26 GMT
When government steps in and attempts to regulate wealth distribution you wind up with Cuba and the Soviet Union. No, neither Country is wealth being 'distrubuted', the wealth was kept to a small elite. The Countries you should be looking at are Sweden, Finland, France, Italy, Spain, Germany and Demmark. There you see how the market is regulated and wealth is distributed.
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