|
Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Apr 4, 2012 23:03:04 GMT
I think Jumbo has it right.
Did Zimmerman do something stupid? I think yes. Did Zimmerman intend to kill Martin? I think no. Did Zimmerman really believe Martin was a bad guy? I think yes.
Did Martin do something stupid by injuring Zimmerman? I think yes. Did Martin think he was risking his life by attacking Zimmerman? I think no Did Martin react emotionally with extreme anger? I think yes.
Was Zimmerman guilty of murder or manslaughter? I think no. Was Trayvon at least partly responsible for what happened? I think yes. Report
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Apr 5, 2012 0:07:49 GMT
I think Jumbo has it right. Did Zimmerman do something stupid? I think yes. Did Zimmerman intend to kill Martin? I think no. Did Zimmerman really believe Martin was a bad guy? I think yes. Did Martin do something stupid by injuring Zimmerman? I think yes. Did Martin think he was risking his life by attacking Zimmerman? I think no Did Martin react emotionally with extreme anger? I think yes. Was Zimmerman guilty of murder or manslaughter? I think no. Was Trayvon at least partly responsible for what happened? I think yes. Report Very likely my dear Watson! Oops I mean BushAdmirer!
In a fight between the 2 of them I wouldn't give Zimmerman a chance. He looks a little chubby and not too quick. Trayvon would quickly take him down like a big turtle and would have the option of banging Zimmerman's head on the ground. I don't think Trayvon would let him up.
The police still haven't stated if Mr. Zimmerman shot Martin while Zimmerman was on the ground being beaten or did he manage to get up and shoot. I think Zimmerman's off the hook completely if the first scenario is the case!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2012 6:52:32 GMT
It will be interesting to read the findings: until they are published we can rely only on bits of incomplete, often speculative and sometimes inaccurate media reports.
|
|
|
Post by trubble on Apr 6, 2012 0:09:16 GMT
Did Zimmerman intend to kill Martin? I think no. I also think no. I would rephrase that slightly and say did Zimmerman really feel threatened? I think yes. I listened to the 911 call that Zimmerman made, where he's talking to police about what he can see. He thinks he sees someone threatening. You can tell he feels threatened when he talks about the guy moving toward him with his hand on his belt. But was Zimmerman assessing the situation correctly? His belief that he could 'see a bad guy' is where the problem begins. I could really believe that I saw a statue of the Virgin Mary move around and cry, that's not impossible. That it actually moved around and sobbed is impossible. My hysteria and preconceptions and expectations might make me see things that just are not there. Some years ago I saw two teenagers in hoodies one evening, hanging out at the beach, looking shifty. I told my companion to walk faster and not say anything because we were going to pass some undesirables. I wasn't scared for my life or that I would get attacked, but I just didn't want any trouble and there are often young people there drinking. As we passed them I snuck a furtive glance & recognised one as my geeky daughter and the other as her nerdy best friend. They were huddled together with their hoods up because the sea wind was cold. Listen, I was thrilled that they were out, I hoped to god they were having a quick illegal can of cider, but no such luck - my daughter doesn't approve of that sort of thing. Never has. Blooming puritan. But someone else could have seen them and not realised they were geeks on a nature walk. What if that someone had a belief like Zimmerman? This kid was in trouble the moment Zimmerman saw him! The Martins deserve justice.
|
|
|
Post by iamjumbo on Apr 6, 2012 9:20:49 GMT
Did Zimmerman intend to kill Martin? I think no. I also think no. I would rephrase that slightly and say did Zimmerman really feel threatened? I think yes. I listened to the 911 call that Zimmerman made, where he's talking to police about what he can see. He thinks he sees someone threatening. You can tell he feels threatened when he talks about the guy moving toward him with his hand on his belt. But was Zimmerman assessing the situation correctly? His belief that he could 'see a bad guy' is where the problem begins. I could really believe that I saw a statue of the Virgin Mary move around and cry, that's not impossible. That it actually moved around and sobbed is impossible. My hysteria and preconceptions and expectations might make me see things that just are not there. Some years ago I saw two teenagers in hoodies one evening, hanging out at the beach, looking shifty. I told my companion to walk faster and not say anything because we were going to pass some undesirables. I wasn't scared for my life or that I would get attacked, but I just didn't want any trouble and there are often young people there drinking. As we passed them I snuck a furtive glance & recognised one as my geeky daughter and the other as her nerdy best friend. They were huddled together with their hoods up because the sea wind was cold. Listen, I was thrilled that they were out, I hoped to god they were having a quick illegal can of cider, but no such luck - my daughter doesn't approve of that sort of thing. Never has. Blooming puritan. But someone else could have seen them and not realised they were geeks on a nature walk. What if that someone had a belief like Zimmerman? This kid was in trouble the moment Zimmerman saw him! The Martins deserve justice. that's the whole thing. zimmerman decided that martin was burglarizing houses, and was too stupid to bother comprehending that he was just a kid walking down the street to his father's. another nutjob totally averse to reality
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Apr 6, 2012 13:41:09 GMT
I also think no. I would rephrase that slightly and say did Zimmerman really feel threatened? I think yes. I listened to the 911 call that Zimmerman made, where he's talking to police about what he can see. He thinks he sees someone threatening. You can tell he feels threatened when he talks about the guy moving toward him with his hand on his belt. But was Zimmerman assessing the situation correctly? His belief that he could 'see a bad guy' is where the problem begins. I could really believe that I saw a statue of the Virgin Mary move around and cry, that's not impossible. That it actually moved around and sobbed is impossible. My hysteria and preconceptions and expectations might make me see things that just are not there. Some years ago I saw two teenagers in hoodies one evening, hanging out at the beach, looking shifty. I told my companion to walk faster and not say anything because we were going to pass some undesirables. I wasn't scared for my life or that I would get attacked, but I just didn't want any trouble and there are often young people there drinking. As we passed them I snuck a furtive glance & recognised one as my geeky daughter and the other as her nerdy best friend. They were huddled together with their hoods up because the sea wind was cold. Listen, I was thrilled that they were out, I hoped to god they were having a quick illegal can of cider, but no such luck - my daughter doesn't approve of that sort of thing. Never has. Blooming puritan. But someone else could have seen them and not realised they were geeks on a nature walk. What if that someone had a belief like Zimmerman? This kid was in trouble the moment Zimmerman saw him! The Martins deserve justice. that's the whole thing. zimmerman decided that martin was burglarizing houses, and was too stupid to bother comprehending that he was just a kid walking down the street to his father's. another nutjob totally averse to reality The police haven't released the details. I suspect Trayvon Martin was slamming Mr. Zimmerman's head on the pavement and Mr. Zimmerman while on the ground being beaten pulled his concealed gun out and shot Martin! I would shoot too and try to at least incapacitate him, if I was being beaten like that!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 19:01:29 GMT
Me too, Anna. But hasn't one of the witnesses said that it was Martin who was on the ground, and with Zimmerman on top of him,, when the shot was fired?
|
|
|
Post by iamjumbo on Apr 7, 2012 14:07:54 GMT
that's the whole thing. zimmerman decided that martin was burglarizing houses, and was too stupid to bother comprehending that he was just a kid walking down the street to his father's. another nutjob totally averse to reality The police haven't released the details. I suspect Trayvon Martin was slamming Mr. Zimmerman's head on the pavement and Mr. Zimmerman while on the ground being beaten pulled his concealed gun out and shot Martin! I would shoot too and try to at least incapacitate him, if I was being beaten like that!i would trust that you are intelligent enough to not have been stalking martin and accosting him like zimmerman did
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Apr 7, 2012 15:20:21 GMT
Me too, Anna. But hasn't one of the witnesses said that it was Martin who was on the ground, and with Zimmerman on top of him,, when the shot was fired? Hi Skylark! The witnesses couldn't see much detail and there are conflicting accounts. Zimmerman was dressed in red and at least one witness described Zimmerman as being on the bottom with Martin above and only identified by the red color of his outfit!
I think both Martin and Zimmerman are scary people and I'd stay away from both of them! Anyone who'd confront either of them, is IMO "cruising for a bruising" or worse!
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Apr 7, 2012 15:51:29 GMT
The police haven't released the details. I suspect Trayvon Martin was slamming Mr. Zimmerman's head on the pavement and Mr. Zimmerman while on the ground being beaten pulled his concealed gun out and shot Martin! I would shoot too and try to at least incapacitate him, if I was being beaten like that! i would trust that you are intelligent enough to not have been stalking martin and accosting him like zimmerman did Oh no Jim! I would never follow a suspicious stranger just out of suspicion. If I saw a burglar leaving a neighbor's house I might try to follow at a very safe distance. If a sex offender was dragging a child away I would perhaps try a vigilante action and would feel emboldened, if I had a handgun!
What makes me think Martin contributed to his own death are the facts: 1 ) Martin chose not to run away from Mr. Zimmerman and allowed the confrontation. Just looking at the two men it's obvious that Trayvon would easily have won a 100 yard dash against pudgely Mr. Zimmerman.
2 ) The struggle took place in a dark area where neighbors could hardly see anything. Why didn't Martin stay in the light. If you're right that Zimmerman was agressively following Martin then why did Martin lead him into a dark area? Did he plan to strike back at Zimmerman? A justifiable suspicion!
3 ) Someone who greets strangers on Twitter, like Trayvon Martin did, with an obscene gesture most likely choses to be offended when he's stared at and more so when he's being followed! He was probably very angered by Mr. Zimmerman following or watching him and didn't need to be grabbed to initiate the first physical contact and act of aggression!
|
|
|
Post by iamjumbo on Apr 7, 2012 20:18:41 GMT
i would trust that you are intelligent enough to not have been stalking martin and accosting him like zimmerman did Oh no Jim! I would never follow a suspicious stranger just out of suspicion. If I saw a burglar leaving a neighbor's house I might try to follow at a very safe distance. If a sex offender was dragging a child away I would perhaps try a vigilante action and would feel emboldened, if I had a handgun!
What makes me think Martin contributed to his own death are the facts: 1 ) Martin chose not to run away from Mr. Zimmerman and allowed the confrontation. Just looking at the two men it's obvious that Trayvon would easily have won a 100 yard dash against pudgely Mr. Zimmerman.
2 ) The struggle took place in a dark area where neighbors could hardly see anything. Why didn't Martin stay in the light. If you're right that Zimmerman was agressively following Martin then why did Martin lead him into a dark area? Did he plan to strike back at Zimmerman? A justifiable suspicion!
3 ) Someone who greets strangers on Twitter, like Trayvon Martin did, with an obscene gesture most likely choses to be offended when he's stared at and more so when he's being followed! He was probably very angered by Mr. Zimmerman following or watching him and didn't need to be grabbed to initiate the first physical contact and act of aggression!you forget that martin was under no compulsion to run away. florida has a stand your ground law. martin was walking on the way to his father's. there was no reason for him to be concerned about light. that is one of the things that proves that zimmerman grabbed him. the picture doesn't necessarily mean that. when i'm driving, i flip off at least a half a dozen fools a day. i miss the little rubber hand that i used to have hanging from the rear view mirror that was flipping EVERYONE off
|
|
|
Post by trubble on Apr 8, 2012 11:36:21 GMT
Being very simplistic, this is how I see it:
2 guys got into a fight.
1. No one should get into a fight.
2. Neither should attack.
3. Both must be allowed to defend.
Martin was defending as much as Zimmerman was. Both used more defence than was necessary. Both defended against something that was not there.
Two wrongs.
But who started it? Martin by being 17, dopey and wearing a hoodie? no!
Zimmerman started it.
Zimmerman ended it.
I don't want to see Zimmerman punished for a genuine mistake and a genuine act of self defence, and I think that really may be the case.
But!
Martin & his family did not deserve the punishment Zimmerman has given them. And the Martins need some justice, and that will involve making Zimmerman pay for his mistake. Can't be any other way.
An unfortunate situation.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Apr 8, 2012 17:12:42 GMT
|
|
|
Post by trubble on Apr 8, 2012 19:36:18 GMT
Thanks, Anna. Here's some more: (Disclaimer: I don't know if these maps are correct, they contain various presumptions but they seem to show where Trayvon was heading -- home!! --and apologies if these have already been put up.) What makes me think Martin contributed to his own death are the facts: 1 ) Martin chose not to run away from Mr. Zimmerman and allowed the confrontation. Just looking at the two men it's obvious that Trayvon would easily have won a 100 yard dash against pudgely Mr. Zimmerman. He did run, though. That's what makes Zimmerman even more suspicious. 2 ) The struggle took place in a dark area where neighbors could hardly see anything. Why didn't Martin stay in the light. If you're right that Zimmerman was agressively following Martin then why did Martin lead him into a dark area? Did he plan to strike back at Zimmerman? A justifiable suspicion! I don't find this a very plausible idea. It looks more plausible that he was either just walking home and/or chose to confront someone who had been staring at him and was now - undeniably - stalking him! And he ran away from the main road to get away from Zimmerman's beady eye. As Jumbo points out, such a gesture on a twitter account is really neither here nor there. It implies that Trayvon wasn't a little angel, but does not imply that he was any sort of a 'bad guy'. But yes, Trayvon could easily be very angered by Zimmerman's actions. Many young men might take offence at Zimmerman's actions! And no, he may not have needed any physical contact to initiate it himself. But if Trayvon was within his rights to be walking this route (and he was), and if he was not up to anything nefarious (and there's nothing to suggest he was), maybe he was also within his rights to react with some anger at this snooping and suspicion. Of course, that doesn't really excuse a beating, a punch up, or threatening of lives... all that is beyond any right. But each man thought the other was a weirdo. Simple mix up. Tragic too. The police shouldn't have let it pass.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 6:33:34 GMT
Yes indeed, and as I said earlier, each man probably also realised that the other thought he was a weirdo.
The "stand your ground before he stands his ground" defence. f
Thanks for the plans Anna and Trubble.
|
|
|
Post by toby on Apr 9, 2012 11:27:31 GMT
BA posted.:-The photo Martin chose to represent himself on Twitter as gT33ZY_TAUGHT_M3 depicts him in a black Polo cap, looking into the camera and extending his middle finger. The photofs file name on Twitterfs server indicates that it was taken on the afternoon of June 17, 2010.
Toby comments.:- Ugly looking begger ! I reckon Mr. Zimmermann has a full set of balls for bracing this person, especially at night in poor visibility !! If Martin attacked Mr. Zimmermann then he did the right thing in shooting, it's a pity he did not wound Martin but if it was night and poor visibility then that's Gods Will !
|
|
|
Post by toby on Apr 9, 2012 11:30:10 GMT
Anna posted.:-Someone who greets strangers on Twitter, like Trayvon Martin did, with an obscene gesture most likely choses to be offended when he's stared at and more so when he's being followed! He was probably very angered by Mr. Zimmerman following or watching him and didn't need to be grabbed to initiate the first physical contact and act of aggression!
Toby comments.:- You are spot on here ! the obscene gesture tells us more about Martin than anything else, I reckon he will be no great loss !
|
|
|
Post by sadie1263 on Apr 9, 2012 13:42:18 GMT
I believe it was a case of a paranoid person following what he thought was a suspicious person....and a teen with a bit of an attitude....that didn't like being followed. Nothing good was ever going to come of that situation.
My problem is....you had two people in a fight and only one made it out and the one left has physical injuries. Unless there is some type of physical evidence or security film footage.....how do you prove what happened? To me that is the problem the police have on their hands. Yes....something bad happened and a person lost their life.....but how do you prove it wasn't self defense?
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Apr 9, 2012 14:05:31 GMT
[/img][/url] What makes me think Martin contributed to his own death are the facts: 1 ) Martin chose not to run away from Mr. Zimmerman and allowed the confrontation. Just looking at the two men it's obvious that Trayvon would easily have won a 100 yard dash against pudgely Mr. Zimmerman. He did run, though. That's what makes Zimmerman even more suspicious. I don't find this a very plausible idea. It looks more plausible that he was either just walking home and/or chose to confront someone who had been staring at him and was now - undeniably - stalking him! And he ran away from the main road to get away from Zimmerman's beady eye. As Jumbo points out, such a gesture on a twitter account is really neither here nor there. It implies that Trayvon wasn't a little angel, but does not imply that he was any sort of a 'bad guy'. But yes, Trayvon could easily be very angered by Zimmerman's actions. Many young men might take offence at Zimmerman's actions! And no, he may not have needed any physical contact to initiate it himself. But if Trayvon was within his rights to be walking this route (and he was), and if he was not up to anything nefarious (and there's nothing to suggest he was), maybe he was also within his rights to react with some anger at this snooping and suspicion. Of course, that doesn't really excuse a beating, a punch up, or threatening of lives... all that is beyond any right. But each man thought the other was a weirdo. Simple mix up. Tragic too. The police shouldn't have let it pass.[/quote] Hi Trubble, Martin may have ran, but he did not run away from the slower Zimmerman, which I'm sure he could have. He chose to face off and confront him and everything escalated from there. "Stand your ground" means nothing on the streets. If I were being following by Zimmerman I would have ditched him or have been very polite, if he somehow cornered me. Apparently Martin felt he could give Zimmerman a serious head bashing, but didn't know about the "equalizer" that Mr. Z. had.
In Germany a hitchhiker "gave the finger" to a car that didn't pick him up. The inhabititants were Black and stopped, came back and forced the hitchhiker's finger backwards until it broke! "Giving the finger" is obscene and provokes hostility! Jumbo is taking a big and unneccesary risk using this gesture too! I'm sure Jumbo admits that this gesture expresses his anger and could provoke retaliation!
It's silly to talk about the right to walk somewhere when a potentially dangerous person is in the mix. It's no different than standing your ground against a tiger that escaped from the zoo! It's stupid!
The police haven't let it pass and are still investigating! Not all the witnesses talk with the press and media! Zimmerman wasn't arrested so he certainly has witness testimonies defending his actions. So far the police haven't found a compelling reason to disbelieve Zimmerman's claim of self defense! Even if Zimmerman started first by grabbing Martin as Jumbo suggests it would still be self defense, if Zimmerman shot to avoid getting his head busted open.
|
|
♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Apr 9, 2012 14:16:05 GMT
Yes indeed, and as I said earlier, each man probably also realised that the other thought he was a weirdo. The "stand your ground before he stands his ground" defence. f Thanks for the plans Anna and Trubble. Again stand your ground is no different than having the right of way at an unmarked intersection. If something goes wrong you may need witnesses even if it was the other guy's fault!
|
|