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Post by beth on Jan 14, 2010 14:33:16 GMT
My 5 year old nephew learned the word "retribution" from the animated TV series, Batman: the Brave and the Bold. He asked us what it meant. We told him. Since then, he's used the word - appropriately AND inappropriately - relentlessly. lol We sometimes hear/see religious spokespersons using that word in far less amusing circumstances. How does the idea of retribution figure into religion and why is it such a handy catch-phrase for some in the clergy? The subject came to mind yesterday when Pat Robertson accused the Haitians of bringing about their own natural disaster by making a "pact to the devil". Here's what he said -
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Post by Big Lin on Jan 14, 2010 16:02:48 GMT
Well, Pat Robertson has a long track record of being a liar, a hypocrite and a lowlife egomaniac tenth-rate politician.
Why should anyone expect common sense or even common humanity from a bloke like him?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2010 18:19:14 GMT
The clip was enteertaining, in a ghoulish kind of way....it is scary to think that many people will be nodding sagely in agreement.
Does he think that the New Orleans flooding was retribution for not becoming a French colony? Was that a pact with the devil?
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Post by beth on Jan 14, 2010 20:12:30 GMT
It isn't just Pat, Lin. Sky made the point very well - many are sitting around today, giving him the thumbs-up and eagerly spreading this opinion to those gullible enough to be influenced. In fact, this came to my attention early this a.m. because I received an email from an older, retired lady who was one of my secondary school teachers - no dummy, but very easy to lead when it comes to religion. I believe Pat DID have a similar comment in regard to the Kristina victims - or it may have been Jerry Falwell, who also, infamously, raved about 9/11/01 being God's retribution for liberal attitudes about gays and abortion.
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Post by Big Lin on Jan 14, 2010 20:27:33 GMT
It isn't just Pat, Lin. Sky made the point very well - many are sitting around today, giving him the thumbs-up and eagerly spreading this opinion to those gullible enough to be influenced. In fact, this came to my attention early this a.m. because I received an email from an older, retired lady who was one of my secondary school teachers - no dummy, but very easy to lead when it comes to religion. I believe Pat DID have a similar comment in regard to the Kristina victims - or it may have been Jerry Falwell, who also, infamously, raved about 9/11/01 being God's retribution for liberal attitudes about gays and abortion. Yeah, well, I consider myself a Christian but I'm certainly NOT like those guys! As far as I'm concerned their freaking hypocrites with no love, no compassion and no understanding of the religion of love they pretend to be following (and do very nicely out of at the same time as they abuse people who are probably morally better than THEM in every way!)
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Post by beth on Jan 14, 2010 22:19:25 GMT
I agree, Lin. Here, I'm mostly interested in discovering (re-discovering, really) where this idea of Holy Retribution comes from. Most likely it's part of the fire and brimstone old testament theology in the bible. Can anyone give examples? I'm a little embarrassed that I can't right off the top of my head. Pat Robertson, imo, is one of those pick-and-choose Christians who will ignore new testament teachings if the wrathful God of the old testament suits his purposes better.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jan 15, 2010 3:29:09 GMT
I'm not familar with Haitian history and whatever historical sources Mr. Robertson sites for the "pact with the devil". So i'll refrain from comment on that.
I know some people have trouble understanding a concept like "Deterrence" and I do concede that i have trouble understanding what is really meant by "retribution". Payback, recompensation or revenge?? It surprises me that some dictonaries also define "retribution" as possibly being a reward, but i've never heard it used in that sense.
www.thefreedictionary.com/retribution QUOTE: retribution [ˌrɛtrɪˈbjuːʃən] n 1. the act of punishing or taking vengeance for wrongdoing, sin, or injury 2. punishment or vengeance [via Old French from Church Latin retribūtiō, from Latin retribuere to repay, from re- + tribuere to pay; see tribute] retributive [rɪˈtrɪbjʊtɪv] less commonly, retributory adj retributively adv Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged 6th Edition 2003. © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms Noun 1. retribution - a justly deserved penalty requital penalty - a payment required for not fulfilling a contract 2. retribution - the act of correcting for your wrongdoing correction, rectification - the act of offering an improvement to replace a mistake; setting right 3. retribution - the act of taking revenge (harming someone in retaliation for something harmful that they have done) especially in the next life; "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord"--Romans 12:19; "For vengeance I would do nothing. This nation is too great to look for mere revenge"--James Garfield; "he swore vengeance on the man who betrayed him"; "the swiftness of divine retribution" vengeance, payback retaliation, revenge - action taken in return for an injury or offense
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Post by beth on Jan 15, 2010 4:02:03 GMT
Thank you Anna I know what the word means, but am slow remembering where in the Bible this concept is used. I'm sure it's there somewhere, probably several somewheres. I wonder whether that would be as in Cain being driven out of Eden, or the destruction of the city of Nineveh (sp ?) as punishment (retribution ?) for their many "sins". Or, maybe, in the story of Noah, the "world", destroyed by flood because the people did not please God. Am thinking this is the kind of retribution Pat is pushing for Haiti. (and at the 700 Club, the donations are, no doubt, pouring in.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2010 7:56:48 GMT
I agree, Lin. Here, I'm mostly interested in discovering (re-discovering, really) where this idea of Holy Retribution comes from. Most likely it's part of the fire and brimstone old testament theology in the bible. Can anyone give examples? I'm a little embarrassed that I can't right off the top of my head. Pat Robertson, imo, is one of those pick-and-choose Christians who will ignore new testament teachings if the wrathful God of the old testament suits his purposes better. Google Sodom and Gomorrah and you will find all kinds of sites , including those who say the cities were destroyed to punish the inhabitants for homosexuality. Those who adhere to the idea that God wiped out two cities in retirbution for the "sins" of some, must be aware that children perished. (or maybe there weren't any, on account of the rampant homosexuality?) But children have certainly died in Haiti ....all hard to reconcile with a "just God", you would think. I know a couple of people who claim to take the word of the Bible literally, but ask them to explain this apparent contradiction and they will just shrug their shoulders and mumble comments along the lines of "there are things that we aren't meant to know" Now, both these people are educated professional people. One of them (who had a very disturbed childhood) is one of those vulnerable people who feel secure in absolutes and seems to rely on what her pastor tells her. If he told her that Haiti was wiped out because the people made a pact with the devil- well, I like to think she would go elsewhere for her Sunday worship, but I'm not totally confident about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2010 8:13:40 GMT
Ah - Genesis sheds some light on this. God and Abraham entered into a Dutch auction over the number of innocents who could be massacred: (18)22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD. 23 And Abraham came near and said, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it? 25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” 26 So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.” 27 Then Abraham answered and said, “Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: 28 Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous; would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?” So He said, “If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it.” 29 And he spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose there should be forty found there?” So He said, “I will not do it for the sake of forty.” 30 Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?” So He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 And he said, “Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?” So He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty.” 32 Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.” 33 So the LORD went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.Abraham should be the patron saint of trade union convenors.
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Post by riotgrrl on Jan 15, 2010 11:43:12 GMT
I'm trying to remember where 'an eye for an eye' comes into the old test. I know that Jesus refuted it in the new, but I can't think of the right references.
Maybe someone with more biblical knowledge than me can think of the references for the relevant verses.
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Post by riotgrrl on Jan 15, 2010 11:46:19 GMT
Kant was also big on the philosophy of retribution. I half-remember some quote of his about wanting to see the last murderer hung. This is quite a short article which raises some interesting points. I came across it trying to google to find the Kant quote I refer to. www.kton.demon.co.uk/punishment.htm
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2010 12:20:46 GMT
"Retribution" in penal philosophy means something quite different to the Divine Retribution being talked about by Pat Robinson and his ilk.
It is often used as a justification for punishment and doesn't necessarily mean "an eye for an eye." Indeed, there is the "limiting retribution" theory, which argues that no-one should receive a higher penalty than the "eye for an eye" (eg with the aim of deterrence or reform) but can get less.
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Post by riotgrrl on Jan 15, 2010 12:28:30 GMT
Skylark, I can see your point academically, but surely if we are talking about 'retribution' in all its glory (!), or at least in its use in today's world, we need to pull together the philosophical and religious uses of the term? Retribution as an everyday word does not have two different meanings really (maybe slight nuances depending on context.)
So whatever we come up with on this thread, it's going to involve both strands of 'retribution'.
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Post by mouse on Jan 15, 2010 12:38:57 GMT
am a great believer in retribution or in modern parlence ""of what goes around comes around"" but thinking an earth quake is retribution from god rather than the movement of the plates is plain nuts nothing wrong with a bit of good old retribution or vengence though...best eaten cold as they say
Exodus 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Leviticus 24:20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Deuteronomy 19:21 "Thus you shall not show pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2010 13:08:05 GMT
Skylark, I can see your point academically, but surely if we are talking about 'retribution' in all its glory (!), or at least in its use in today's world, we need to pull together the philosophical and religious uses of the term? Retribution as an everyday word does not have two different meanings really (maybe slight nuances depending on context.) So whatever we come up with on this thread, it's going to involve both strands of 'retribution'. Indeed: and I suspect that Beth's nephew uses the term in yet a third way: but not having watched Batman: the Brave and the Bold am at a loss to know what. (though I've seen the Batman movies of course - the Horrible Penguin Man probably has his own version of retribution)
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Post by beth on Jan 15, 2010 14:47:09 GMT
Thanks for the article, RG. I'm short on time this morning but shall return and type some more after while. Sky, li'l nephew has just lately discovered the great play value in the "good guys - bad guys" take on life. lol He takes the good guy role (a fine thing, I think) and delivers "retribution" to all the DC hero world villains in the form of serious jail time. Kids shows don't encourage murder, so imprisonment is the max. My interest today is to learn more about what the Haitians have done to deserve a smite from Pat Robertson's God. VooDoo? Black skin? Needs investigating.
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Post by mouse on Jan 15, 2010 15:15:00 GMT
My interest today is to learn more about what the Haitians have done to deserve a smite from Pat Robertson's God. VooDoo?
voodoo..canabilism..mass murder...etc etc etc
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Post by mouse on Jan 15, 2010 15:18:30 GMT
During the 18th century the western portion of Hispaniola, called Saint-Domingue, was one of the richest colonies in the French empire, known for its lucrative sugarcane and coffee plantations. (The rest of the island was controlled by Spain.) In 1791 the African slave population revolted, eventually winning independence from Napoleon Bonaparte's France and becoming the second country in the Americas to free itself from colonial rule and the world's first black republic. The country was renamed Haiti.
Haiti's history has been marked by many periods of profound political disarray, including frequent changes of governments, military coups and, beginning in 1915, a two-decade occupation by the United States. The most infamous of Haiti's leaders was François Duvalier, known as Papa Doc, who was elected president in 1957, beginning a long rule known for corruption and human rights abuses that left Haiti increasingly isolated. His son Jean-Claude Duvalier controlled the country from 1971 until he fled in 1986, leading to another period of alternating civilian and military rule.
Despite bouts of optimism in recent years brought on by the implementation of a new constitution and the first peaceful transfer of power between two elected presidents in the nation's history, Haiti's politics remain as tumultuous as ever.
In 1991, Jean-Bertrand Aristide took power after winning 67 percent of the vote in a presidential election, but was overthrown shortly after taking office in a violent coup leading to a three year period of military rule that ended only after the intervention of a United Nations force led by the United States. While the 1995 election of Rene Preval, a prominent political ally of Mr. Aristide, was widely praised, subsequent elections were plagued with allegations of fraud, including the 2000 restoration of Mr. Aristide to his old post.
Over the following years violence spread throughout the country as the government cracked down on opposition party leaders, holding power in part with the aid of extra-legal gangs. In February 2004, after groups opposed to the Aristide government seized control of cities and towns throughout Haiti and closed in on the capital, Mr. Aristide resigned and fled to South Africa. U.S.-led armed forces under the authority of the United Nations Security Council were sent to Port-au-Prince to stabilize the situation and to oversee the installation of an interim government. The United Nations has spent some $5 billion on peacekeeping operations since 2004. In 2006, Mr. Preval was again elected president amidst allegations of impropriety.
Since 2008, the situation has worsened dramatically, with the nation staggering beneath the double whammy of food riots, government instability and a series of hurricanes that killed hundreds and battered the economy.
Hurricanes Gustav, Hanna and Ike and Tropical Storm Fay landed within the space of a month in August and September. Nationally, damages came to a total of $900 million, or nearly 15 percent of the gross domestic product. The national toll was 800 dead, down from 2004 when 3,000 perished.
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jan 15, 2010 15:20:30 GMT
My interest today is to learn more about what the Haitians have done to deserve a smite from Pat Robertson's God. VooDoo? voodoo..canabilism..mass murder...etc etc etc I didn't seem to hear Mr. Robertson claiming that the Haitian earthquake was an act of God.. Maybe he believes the devil did it! I think i'd have bad days, if i asked or prayed for Satan's help!
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