♫anna♫
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jan 15, 2010 15:24:31 GMT
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Post by mouse on Jan 15, 2010 15:30:46 GMT
With one in ten under-40s infected with HIV, and millions living in squalor and destitution, thousands try to flee each year to the U.S. by hanging on to anything that will float.
While hurricanes, floods and earthquakes have all devastated the landscape over the years, the biggest threat has come from humans.
Successive dictators have raped, murdered and even reputedly eaten their enemies. Described by one commentator as an 'international crime scene' rather than a country, Haiti became infamous around the world during the reign of Francois 'Papa Doc' Duvalier, a former doctor who murdered 100,000 people and formed a private band of killers called the Tonton Macoutes.
Wearing their trademark mirrored sunglasses and designer T-shirts, these murderers and cannibals were named after a terrifying bogeyman from Haitian mythology, who carried off naughty children into slavery.
The Tonton Macoutes cut out the hearts, eyes and lungs of opponents with machetes, while Papa Doc, who stole almost a billion pounds in foreign aid, insisted that every television and radio programme had to be entirely in praise of his rule. In power from 1957, Papa Doc made voodoo the country's official religion and claimed to be Baron Samedi, the religion's spirit of death. He often wore a top hat and tails while demanding the skulls of his dead victims were brought to his palace in Port-au-Prince.
He collected blood from prisoners who had been tortured and killed and sold it for $22 a pint to U.S. health groups. He once ordered the death of all black dogs in the country after a political enemy was rumoured to have transformed into one. Even after Papa Doc died in 1971 there was no respite for Haiti. Baby Doc, his deranged son, took over and continued the terror.
His wife spent £10,000 a month on flowers and always wore expensive furs indoors - with officials facing death if they forgot to turn on the air-conditioning. After 15 more years of bloodshed and oppression, the people finally rose up in 1986 and Baby Doc was forced to flee into exile in France. But the torment did not end with the Duvaliers. After the country's first free elections in 1991, the new president, Jean Bertrand Aristide, was forced to flee after a coup by corrupt military figures keen to control lucrative cocaine smuggling routes. In 1993, I watched as the might of the U.S. military was repelled by mobs armed with stones and clubs when American troops arrived to restore order. Papa and Baby Doc were long gone, but gangs of Tonton Macoutes roamed the streets in pick-up trucks, randomly shooting anyone they passed. Aristide returned to power in 1994 with a bigger U.S. force - only to flee again after threats that he would be hacked to death and eaten. Since then, despite the presence of an ineffective UN peacekeeping force, gangs have continued to wreak havoc and murder throughout a country where new graves are guarded to prevent bodies being stolen for voodoo rituals. The most infamous of these killers is the Cannibal Gang, a group of sadists once led by a former prisoner with political aspirations, who was himself shot in the eyes and had his heart cut out in 2004. His gang lives on, murdering innocent people and allegedly eating their organs. As the world reacted with pledges of help for the latest traumatised victims of the Island of the Damned, rescuers continued their desperate search for bodies and relatives waited for news. For the people of Haiti, though, hope has always been a rare commodity.
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jan 15, 2010 16:02:59 GMT
It is apparentenly history fact that a "voodoo ceremony" played a role in the beginning of the Haitian rebellion. www.travelinghaiti.com/history_of_haiti/slave_rebellion.asp QUOTE:
A slave rebellion of 1791 finally toppled the colony. Launched in August of that year, the revolt represented the culmination of a protracted conspiracy among black leaders. According to accounts of the rebellion that have been told through the years, François-Dominique Toussaint Louverture helped plot the uprising, although this claim has never been substantiated. Among the rebellion's leaders were Boukman, a maroon and voodoo houngan (priest); Georges Biassou, who later made Toussaint his aide; Jean-François, who subsequently commanded forces, along with Biassou and Toussaint, under the Spanish flag; and Jeannot, the bloodthirstiest of them all. These leaders sealed their compact with a voodoo ceremony conducted by Boukman in the Bois Cayman (Alligator Woods) in early August 1791. On August 22, a little more than a week after the ceremony, the uprising of their black followers began.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2010 16:39:58 GMT
It is apparentenly history fact that a "voodoo ceremony" played a role in the beginning of the Haitian rebellion. www.travelinghaiti.com/history_of_haiti/slave_rebellion.asp QUOTE:
A slave rebellion of 1791 finally toppled the colony. Launched in August of that year, the revolt represented the culmination of a protracted conspiracy among black leaders. According to accounts of the rebellion that have been told through the years, François-Dominique Toussaint Louverture helped plot the uprising, although this claim has never been substantiated. Among the rebellion's leaders were Boukman, a maroon and voodoo houngan (priest); Georges Biassou, who later made Toussaint his aide; Jean-François, who subsequently commanded forces, along with Biassou and Toussaint, under the Spanish flag; and Jeannot, the bloodthirstiest of them all. These leaders sealed their compact with a voodoo ceremony conducted by Boukman in the Bois Cayman (Alligator Woods) in early August 1791. On August 22, a little more than a week after the ceremony, the uprising of their black followers began. According to Wiki, Haiti voudouhas nothing to do with devil worship, so Robinson needs to get his facts right. "The principal belief in Haitian Vodou is that there are various deities, or Lwa (commonly spelled Loa), who are subordinate to a greater God, known as Bondyè, who does not interfere with human affairs. Therefore it is to the lwa that Vodou worship is directed.[3] Other characteristics of Vodou include veneration of the dead and protection against evil witchcraft.[4]"
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Post by beth on Jan 16, 2010 2:31:06 GMT
Crooks and Liars offers some insight - not particularly scholarly, but interesting and to the point. AND - as offered in the last bit, the "devil" could be us. Crooks and Liars on Robertson and Haiti
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
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Post by ♫anna♫ on Jan 16, 2010 6:05:32 GMT
With all due respect Beth and SkyLark, I think i share Mr. Robertson's un PC reservations about Vodoo!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2010 7:55:14 GMT
Beth, thanks for that link
Anna, whatever makes you believe that it happened? Even if a pig was slaughered, that is no evidence of a pact with the devil- it sounds more like an Old Testament ritual! I'd like to see some evidence that the Haitians were dabbling in satanic practices.
It is fr more likely that powerful Christian fundamentalists are out to demonise any religion that isn't Bible based by spreading false rumours that their followers are only too eager to swallow.
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 16, 2010 12:27:47 GMT
I agree, Lin. Here, I'm mostly interested in discovering (re-discovering, really) where this idea of Holy Retribution comes from. Most likely it's part of the fire and brimstone old testament theology in the bible. Can anyone give examples? I'm a little embarrassed that I can't right off the top of my head. Pat Robertson, imo, is one of those pick-and-choose Christians who will ignore new testament teachings if the wrathful God of the old testament suits his purposes better. the bible, particularly in revelations, gives a rundown on the wars, and rumors of wars, earthquakes, famine, and other assorted pestilence that will occur in the end time. robertson and the chaps are partially correct. these things occur as the world becomes increasingly more evil. HOWEVER, they blow it by laying it to any specific area. it is the evil of the entire world, not new orleans, haiti or anywhere else. it is also not the wrath of god per se
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 16, 2010 12:32:56 GMT
I'm not familar with Haitian history and whatever historical sources Mr. Robertson sites for the "pact with the devil". So i'll refrain from comment on that.
I know some people have trouble understanding a concept like "Deterrence" and I do concede that i have trouble understanding what is really meant by "retribution". Payback, recompensation or revenge?? It surprises me that some dictonaries also define "retribution" as possibly being a reward, but i've never heard it used in that sense.
www.thefreedictionary.com/retribution QUOTE: retribution [ˌrɛtrɪˈbjuːʃən] n 1. the act of punishing or taking vengeance for wrongdoing, sin, or injury 2. punishment or vengeance [via Old French from Church Latin retribūtiō, from Latin retribuere to repay, from re- + tribuere to pay; see tribute] retributive [rɪˈtrɪbjʊtɪv] less commonly, retributory adj retributively adv Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged 6th Edition 2003. © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms Noun 1. retribution - a justly deserved penalty requital penalty - a payment required for not fulfilling a contract 2. retribution - the act of correcting for your wrongdoing correction, rectification - the act of offering an improvement to replace a mistake; setting right 3. retribution - the act of taking revenge (harming someone in retaliation for something harmful that they have done) especially in the next life; "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord"--Romans 12:19; "For vengeance I would do nothing. This nation is too great to look for mere revenge"--James Garfield; "he swore vengeance on the man who betrayed him"; "the swiftness of divine retribution" vengeance, payback retaliation, revenge - action taken in return for an injury or offense
of course, they are full of shyt. retribution connotes vengeance, although it isn't necessarily so. however, to equate vengeance and punishment is abjectly stupid on its face. the simple FACT is that vengeance could be misplaced while punishment NEVER is. when you smack a kid's azz for not doing what he is told, that is punishment. it is NOT vengeance.
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♫anna♫
Global Moderator
Aug 18 2017 - Always In Our Hearts
The Federal Reserve Act is the Betrayal of the American Revolution!
e x a l t | s m i t e
karma:
Posts: 11,769
|
Post by ♫anna♫ on Jan 16, 2010 15:27:21 GMT
I'm not familar with Haitian history and whatever historical sources Mr. Robertson sites for the "pact with the devil". So i'll refrain from comment on that.
I know some people have trouble understanding a concept like "Deterrence" and I do concede that i have trouble understanding what is really meant by "retribution". Payback, recompensation or revenge?? It surprises me that some dictonaries also define "retribution" as possibly being a reward, but i've never heard it used in that sense.
www.thefreedictionary.com/retribution QUOTE: retribution [ˌrɛtrɪˈbjuːʃən] n 1. the act of punishing or taking vengeance for wrongdoing, sin, or injury 2. punishment or vengeance [via Old French from Church Latin retribūtiō, from Latin retribuere to repay, from re- + tribuere to pay; see tribute] retributive [rɪˈtrɪbjʊtɪv] less commonly, retributory adj retributively adv Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged 6th Edition 2003. © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms Noun 1. retribution - a justly deserved penalty requital penalty - a payment required for not fulfilling a contract 2. retribution - the act of correcting for your wrongdoing correction, rectification - the act of offering an improvement to replace a mistake; setting right 3. retribution - the act of taking revenge (harming someone in retaliation for something harmful that they have done) especially in the next life; "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord"--Romans 12:19; "For vengeance I would do nothing. This nation is too great to look for mere revenge"--James Garfield; "he swore vengeance on the man who betrayed him"; "the swiftness of divine retribution" vengeance, payback retaliation, revenge - action taken in return for an injury or offense
of course, they are full of shyt. retribution connotes vengeance, although it isn't necessarily so. however, to equate vengeance and punishment is abjectly stupid on its face. the simple FACT is that vengeance could be misplaced while punishment NEVER is. when you smack a kid's azz for not doing what he is told, that is punishment. it is NOT vengeance. A punishment for a wrong act that is designed to say help a child improve himself is a definition of retribution that i like.
If a city of innocent people/civilians with no military interest was bombed during a war and the attacked nation retaliates and bombs civilians in a non-military zone for retribution then i feel this wrong. As you say vengeance often gets it wrong!Getting back to Mr. Robertson. I'm sure a lot of Americans would be disturbed, if say the Declaration of Indendence were signed during a Vodoo ritual. I also think Mr. Robertson never claimed the Haitian earthquake was God's punishment, but suggested the entities of the Vodoo religion aren't interested in human well being. Thus "Retribution" was not what Mr. Robertson was talking about.
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 16, 2010 17:37:12 GMT
of course, they are full of shyt. retribution connotes vengeance, although it isn't necessarily so. however, to equate vengeance and punishment is abjectly stupid on its face. the simple FACT is that vengeance could be misplaced while punishment NEVER is. when you smack a kid's azz for not doing what he is told, that is punishment. it is NOT vengeance. A punishment for a wrong act that is designed to say help a child improve himself is a definition of retribution that i like.
If a city of innocent people/civilians with no military interest was bombed during a war and the attacked nation retaliates and bombs civilians in a non-military zone for retribution then i feel this wrong. As you say vengeance often gets it wrong!Getting back to Mr. Robertson. I'm sure a lot of Americans would be disturbed, if say the Declaration of Indendence were signed during a Vodoo ritual. I also think Mr. Robertson never claimed the Haitian earthquake was God's punishment, but suggested the entities of the Vodoo religion aren't interested in human well being. Thus "Retribution" was not what Mr. Robertson was talking about.that's close enough, but, still, punishment is NOT retribution
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Post by beth on Jan 16, 2010 18:57:53 GMT
I think definition #3 in Anna's long list (Collins Dictionary) is the one that links Pat's screed with "retribution". IMO, it's a pretty accurate word to use in this context. I hope you guys are not painting PR in credible/sympathetic colors when, frankly, he has become a public embarrassment. In the opinion of most of most, it was mean spirited and cruel.
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 16, 2010 21:01:03 GMT
I think definition #3 in Anna's long list (Collins Dictionary) is the one that links Pat's screed with "retribution". IMO, it's a pretty accurate word to use in this context. I hope you guys are not painting PR in credible/sympathetic colors when, frankly, he has become a public embarrassment. In the opinion of most of most, it was mean spirited and cruel. a little perspective hon. how is ANYTHING that ann, rush, or sean say, any different?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2010 22:56:58 GMT
I think definition #3 in Anna's long list (Collins Dictionary) is the one that links Pat's screed with "retribution". IMO, it's a pretty accurate word to use in this context. I hope you guys are not painting PR in credible/sympathetic colors when, frankly, he has become a public embarrassment. In the opinion of most of most, it was mean spirited and cruel. .....and, as I said earlier, probably based on ignorance - and that's being kind. Anna suggests ( I think!) that he wasn't talking about retribution in the form of God's wrath, but of the kind of fate that might befall you if you decided to wade into the river to feed the crocodiles. Your silly fault. Am I right? If so, I'm not sure how that fits in with Christian theology - if indeed it does at all.
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Post by beth on Jan 20, 2010 18:25:43 GMT
The same as playing with fire and getting burned, tempting fate, etc., I guess. But, even there, I think it all has to do with - not superstition - but religion when it comes to Pat Robertson. IOW, religion is his life's work and purpose. His view would be totally from that direction. IMO
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 20, 2010 19:54:12 GMT
The same as playing with fire and getting burned, tempting fate, etc., I guess. But, even there, I think it all has to do with - not superstition - but religion when it comes to Pat Robertson. IOW, religion is his life's work and purpose. His view would be totally from that direction. IMO that much is problably true. he bases EVERYTHING according to his religion
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Post by beth on Jan 21, 2010 3:34:41 GMT
The same as playing with fire and getting burned, tempting fate, etc., I guess. But, even there, I think it all has to do with - not superstition - but religion when it comes to Pat Robertson. IOW, religion is his life's work and purpose. His view would be totally from that direction. IMO that much is problably true. he bases EVERYTHING according to his religion Yep, I hate to be cynical but - follow the money.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 7:28:20 GMT
It may have backfired on Robinson because he seems to be getting criticism from all quarters.
Ther is apparantly a rumour on the island that a devil pact was entered into, but it is just a rumour unless Robinson has some inside knowledge....
Anna says ". I'm sure a lot of Americans would be disturbed, if say the Declaration of Indendence were signed during a Vodoo ritual. I also think Mr. Robertson never claimed the Haitian earthquake was God's punishment, but suggested the entities of the Vodoo religion aren't interested in human well being."
Is he right about that, do you think?. Voodoo probably includes rituals or incantations designed to protect its followers against the enemy, but so do many other religions including (in its past at least) Christianity.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2010 5:59:06 GMT
There is an article in the Independent about Haiti, and in pasticular the rise of voodoo: ... Standing beside her, Clavius Philisquer, 72, was keen to point out "Voodoo is part of our history, our culture. It unified us when we fought in the war of independence against the French. Voodoo gave power to the black people, that is why some Western countries say bad things about the religion. I have seen how the luas can cure people who have become mentally ill because they were possessed. It is real."
Max Beauvoir, the chief hungan, or priest of the voodoo hierarchy, was busy at his home in Mariani, near Port-au-Prince, distributing bags of rice to his followers. "This is the first relief that the voodoo people have received," he said. "We are being discriminated against. The aid distribution is being done by American Protestants who seem to have taken over the airport. We know what Pat Robertson said, it was ignorant, but it is part of trying to denigrate voodoo and promote evangelism". ..............
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