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Post by beth on Jan 3, 2010 15:59:54 GMT
WHO is that lispy singer. Am thinking Ann Coulter or Karl Rove. What does this simple minded RW propaganda piece have to do with neo-conservatives?
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jan 4, 2010 15:12:55 GMT
Beth - As I've told you before the term 'neo-conservative' is foreign to me. What I do know is that it was invented by the liberal media and is only used by liberals. I also know that it is pure fantasy on their part. It's one of those terms like "Dubya" that serve only one purpose: To identify the person using the term as a liberal.
So this thread isn't really about the liberal fantasy known as neo-conservatism, it is about the dishonesty of the left. It's about the way they distort reality.
Here is the best example that I've seen. Seven Lies in under Two Minutes.
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Post by beth on Jan 4, 2010 20:49:02 GMT
Well, well It appears Bill Kristol's Project for the New American Century site has been taken down and either sent to the shop for reorganization as is mentioned here, or simply scrubbed from Internet visibility. There are lots of sites with information, but, of course, almost all are set up by left wingers raising the alarm about this group of extremists - Kristol, Rumsfeld, Cheney and various others, including Jeb Bush who may have realized his career was not well served by having his name on the list of PNAC members. Their former link now leads to a dead end. And, you knew, didn't you, das? So, you may just be a small Houston peanut, but you know people who are involved in this, it seems. Very interesting.
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Post by pumpkinette on Jan 5, 2010 17:59:59 GMT
No, DAS, it means that because of Bush’s idiotic, short-sighted, and insane policy, there is no easy way out. That’s why it’s called a quagmire. This is just one of the many piles of dung that Bush and company left behind. The repercussions from that stolen election of 2000 will unfortunately reverberate for a few more years. The damage that Bush and the neo-cons inflicted on the nation and the world will take time to repair. That said, I don’t agree with everything Obama is doing, but I hope that where we disagree I hope he’s right and I’m wrong. I felt the same way about Bush back in late 2001/early 2002, and was of course tremendously disappointed. I’d like to see the US declare victory and get the hell out. Starting with Iraq. Just curious, do you agree with Obama VOTING FOR IMMUNITY for the phone companies that are literally listening in on YOU and everyone else? Also reading your e-mails, etc.? Just wondering. His voting for immunity for that filth is NO BETTER than what DUBYA did with the same phone companies. As far as we know, Dubya started the evil abuse of FISA. What do you think of OBAMA keeping it up? As far as I know, Obama hasn't even SAID A SINGLE WORD about stopping it. If he has, I'd be glad to read about it. I'm curious: you say you "don't like" stuff Obama's done or doing. What about this FISA issue? Obama's keeping UP the evil of Dubya. Aren't you OUTRAGED instead of just "not liking it"? Also, doesn't stuff like this FISA issue make you WONDER is there really any difference between the 2 political parties in the US? Isn't it scary to you that Obama claimed he'd be better than Dubya, etc., but has KEPT UP the evil abuse of FISA the Dubya started?
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Post by pumpkinette on Jan 5, 2010 20:14:42 GMT
No, DAS, it means that because of Bush’s idiotic, short-sighted, and insane policy, there is no easy way out. That’s why it’s called a quagmire. This is just one of the many piles of dung that Bush and company left behind. The repercussions from that stolen election of 2000 will unfortunately reverberate for a few more years. The damage that Bush and the neo-cons inflicted on the nation and the world will take time to repair. That said, I don’t agree with everything Obama is doing, but I hope that where we disagree I hope he’s right and I’m wrong. I felt the same way about Bush back in late 2001/early 2002, and was of course tremendously disappointed. I’d like to see the US declare victory and get the hell out. Starting with Iraq. What about the damages the precious Democrats caused for years and years? How long will it take to fix THOSE? Just wondering. Before I hear any screaming about how I'm a neo-con, I hate them. I also hate the Democratic Party and left it last year as couldn't live with myself by staying in a group that 99% or more of the leaders who are in it are compromised SCUM. Who's going to fix the thousands of jobs TAKEN AWAY from Americans from the precious Democrats' NAFTA/GATT? Just wondering. That's just 1 example of the damage the Democrats have done.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jan 6, 2010 2:41:20 GMT
Beth - Surely you didn't say this with a serious intent: "The repercussions from that stolen election of 2000 will unfortunately reverberate for a few more years."
There wasn't any stolen election in 2000 that I'm aware of. There was a very serious attempt to steal the election by Al Gore that the corrupt Florida Supreme Court. Fortunately one of my greatest heroes, Antonin Scalia, stepped in and saved the day for America and the world.
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Post by beth on Jan 6, 2010 2:56:28 GMT
Beth - Surely you didn't say this with a serious intent: "The repercussions from that stolen election of 2000 will unfortunately reverberate for a few more years." There wasn't any stolen election in 2000 that I'm aware of. There was a very serious attempt to steal the election by Al Gore that the corrupt Florida Supreme Court. Fortunately one of my greatest heroes, Antonin Scalia, stepped in and saved the day for America and the world. das, I wouldn't begrudge you a hero for the world - even Antonin Scalia. I don't care for him, but you'll be happy to know (I'm sure) that is one person you and Jim can agree on. I think Gore has to bear part of the responsibility for throwing in the towel, but, yes, I believe that election was stolen, and, get this, I voted for GWB.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jan 6, 2010 3:54:03 GMT
Beth - I was glued to the TV during that election and there is zero doubt that Al Gore tried to steal the election. He lost fair and square. But he was the classic example of a sore loser. The corrupt Florida state Supreme Court tried their best to throw the election in Gore's favor. Thankfully for America and the world the US Supreme Court stepped in and saved the day.
I can't imagine the disaster that a Gore presidency would have been. The guy brings the term 'bozo' to life.
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Post by beth on Jan 6, 2010 15:23:08 GMT
y'know, I can't even hazard a guess about a Gore presidency, especially with the burden of 'holy Joe' as veep . . . but I'll risk a small insight and suggest we would not have invaded Iraq, thereby saving billions of $s and, possibly, routing out Ben Laudin in Afghanistan. Now then - back to the topic - what do you know about the scrubbing of Bill Kristol's PNAC site?
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jan 6, 2010 17:54:55 GMT
The only thing I know about Bill Kristol having a PNAC site is what I read here posted by you. Never heard of it either before or after your post.
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Post by Big Lin on Jan 6, 2010 18:58:17 GMT
Beth - I was glued to the TV during that election and there is zero doubt that Al Gore tried to steal the election. He lost fair and square. But he was the classic example of a sore loser. The corrupt Florida state Supreme Court tried their best to throw the election in Gore's favor. Thankfully for America and the world the US Supreme Court stepped in and saved the day. I can't imagine the disaster that a Gore presidency would have been. The guy brings the term 'bozo' to life. I'm anything BUT an admirer of Gore and if I'd been a US citizen I would have voted Bush in 2000. On the other hand, there are three basic points that need to be made here. The first is that Gore - NOT Bush - won the popular vote. On a normal presidential system like they have in places like France and so on that would have made Gore President instead of Bush. It's not the first time that the ridiculous electoral college system has delivered a result that was AGAINST the wishes of the voters. The first time was in 1800 when disgruntled Federalists used Aaron Burr to try to stop Jefferson. It was used again to put Quincy Adams in the White House instead of Jackson and again in 1876 to put Hayes there instead of Tilden. Kennedy used it in 1960 to steal Illinois from Nixon. The whole electoral college thing is anti-democratic and ought to be scrapped because it's produced unjust and corrupt results on at least five occasions now, including the Florida case. Secondly, a careful recount of the disallowed votes has shown beyond ANY reasonable doubt that Gore DID win Florida and that it was Bush, NOT Gore, who stole the election. Thirdly, for two years before the election Jeb Bush was busy abusing his position of trust as Florida governor to try to go through the voter's list and disenfranchise as many people as he possibly could. None of that means that Gore isn't a corrupt, arrogant, stupid berk who would have been a disastrous President and, like I said, I would have voted Bush in 2000 if I'd been an American. All the same, let's be honest about things. Bush has many more good qualities than Gore but trying to make out that it was GORE who tried to steal the election when the TRUTH is that BUSH was the man who DID steal it is just crazy. The right man won anyway as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by beth on Jan 6, 2010 18:59:55 GMT
The only thing I know about Bill Kristol having a PNAC site is what I read here posted by you. Never heard of it either before or after your post. A link was included. Were you so disinterested you didn't even bother to take a quick minute to click and have a look? Hopefully, others did.
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Post by pumpkinette on Jan 6, 2010 23:55:32 GMT
The only thing I know about Bill Kristol having a PNAC site is what I read here posted by you. Never heard of it either before or after your post. A link was included. Were you so disinterested you didn't even bother to take a quick minute to click and have a look? Hopefully, others did. Is this like when I post links, etc., about how the 2 political parties in the US that run everything and persecute 3rd parties constantly are TRULY the same beneath the surface CRAP they put out are never commented on, ESPECIALLY by the 1's who need to look at them more than others? Also, the stuff I post about the REPEATED evils of PHONY "Savior" Obama the New World Order/1 world government PUSHING stooge isn't ever commented on either unless it's the usual denial/rationalizations EXCEPT by those who truly FACE the evils being done over and over. Thank God for them! They have some standards LEFT unlike too many who vote for SCUM because they're "less evil" ( ) than the last stooge who was in office. How can people willfully ignore that this compromise not only slowly destroys their country but also THEMSELVES?
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Post by pumpkinette on Jan 6, 2010 23:58:53 GMT
The only thing I know about Bill Kristol having a PNAC site is what I read here posted by you. Never heard of it either before or after your post. A link was included. Were you so disinterested you didn't even bother to take a quick minute to click and have a look? Hopefully, others did. You jump on his head when 99% of the time he DOES talk about stuff he's confronted on? I love this about Das, I really do! He has a lot better track record that some I've seen online! I believe 100% he's in denial about Dubya, but from what I've seen he answers at least 99% of the time when he's confronted. That's to be admired. At least he doesn't willfully ignore stuff people confront him about with Dubya! He takes the time to post answers instead of hiding.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jan 7, 2010 1:20:14 GMT
Beth - I was glued to the TV during that election and there is zero doubt that Al Gore tried to steal the election. He lost fair and square. But he was the classic example of a sore loser. The corrupt Florida state Supreme Court tried their best to throw the election in Gore's favor. Thankfully for America and the world the US Supreme Court stepped in and saved the day. I can't imagine the disaster that a Gore presidency would have been. The guy brings the term 'bozo' to life. I'm anything BUT an admirer of Gore and if I'd been a US citizen I would have voted Bush in 2000. On the other hand, there are three basic points that need to be made here. The first is that Gore - NOT Bush - won the popular vote. On a normal presidential system like they have in places like France and so on that would have made Gore President instead of Bush. It's not the first time that the ridiculous electoral college system has delivered a result that was AGAINST the wishes of the voters. The first time was in 1800 when disgruntled Federalists used Aaron Burr to try to stop Jefferson. It was used again to put Quincy Adams in the White House instead of Jackson and again in 1876 to put Hayes there instead of Tilden. Kennedy used it in 1960 to steal Illinois from Nixon. The whole electoral college thing is anti-democratic and ought to be scrapped because it's produced unjust and corrupt results on at least five occasions now, including the Florida case. Secondly, a careful recount of the disallowed votes has shown beyond ANY reasonable doubt that Gore DID win Florida and that it was Bush, NOT Gore, who stole the election. Thirdly, for two years before the election Jeb Bush was busy abusing his position of trust as Florida governor to try to go through the voter's list and disenfranchise as many people as he possibly could. None of that means that Gore isn't a corrupt, arrogant, stupid berk who would have been a disastrous President and, like I said, I would have voted Bush in 2000 if I'd been an American. All the same, let's be honest about things. Bush has many more good qualities than Gore but trying to make out that it was GORE who tried to steal the election when the TRUTH is that BUSH was the man who DID steal it is just crazy. The right man won anyway as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jan 7, 2010 1:33:12 GMT
Beth - I was glued to the TV during that election and there is zero doubt that Al Gore tried to steal the election. He lost fair and square. But he was the classic example of a sore loser. The corrupt Florida state Supreme Court tried their best to throw the election in Gore's favor. Thankfully for America and the world the US Supreme Court stepped in and saved the day. I can't imagine the disaster that a Gore presidency would have been. The guy brings the term 'bozo' to life. I'm anything BUT an admirer of Gore and if I'd been a US citizen I would have voted Bush in 2000. On the other hand, there are three basic points that need to be made here. The first is that Gore - NOT Bush - won the popular vote. On a normal presidential system like they have in places like France and so on that would have made Gore President instead of Bush. It's not the first time that the ridiculous electoral college system has delivered a result that was AGAINST the wishes of the voters. The first time was in 1800 when disgruntled Federalists used Aaron Burr to try to stop Jefferson. It was used again to put Quincy Adams in the White House instead of Jackson and again in 1876 to put Hayes there instead of Tilden. Kennedy used it in 1960 to steal Illinois from Nixon. The whole electoral college thing is anti-democratic and ought to be scrapped because it's produced unjust and corrupt results on at least five occasions now, including the Florida case. Secondly, a careful recount of the disallowed votes has shown beyond ANY reasonable doubt that Gore DID win Florida and that it was Bush, NOT Gore, who stole the election. Thirdly, for two years before the election Jeb Bush was busy abusing his position of trust as Florida governor to try to go through the voter's list and disenfranchise as many people as he possibly could. None of that means that Gore isn't a corrupt, arrogant, stupid berk who would have been a disastrous President and, like I said, I would have voted Bush in 2000 if I'd been an American. All the same, let's be honest about things. Bush has many more good qualities than Gore but trying to make out that it was GORE who tried to steal the election when the TRUTH is that BUSH was the man who DID steal it is just crazy. The right man won anyway as far as I'm concerned. Lin - Though I'm not an admirer of the electoral college system I do see the point. America is a very large country with population concentrated in the Northeastern region and the West Coast. Here is a map showing how the citizens voted in the last four Presidential elections. Red for Republican, Blue for Democrat. You can get more detail here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_states_and_blue_statesOne of the key precepts of our Republic is the preservation of states rights. The citizens of lightly populated states like Wyoming and Mississippi worry about being disenfranchised by voters in the more populous states. The electoral system attempts to strike a balance between population and geography. The same is true with the United States Congress. There are two bodies, the House of Representatives and the Senate. The House representation is based on population. Big states have more representation. The Senate has exactly two Senators for each of the fifty states. It's a balancing act. That's how the forefathers designed it. A popular vote based solely on population might seem logical to Londoners and Parisians. But it might not seem so attractive to someone living in the Scottish highlands or the Comarque. The fact is that we do have the electoral college and it did make a difference in the 2000 election. The important thing is that we followed the rules and didn't try to change them due to public hysteria.
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Post by DAS (formerly BushAdmirer) on Jan 7, 2010 1:36:57 GMT
A link was included. Were you so disinterested you didn't even bother to take a quick minute to click and have a look? Hopefully, others did. You jump on his head when 99% of the time he DOES talk about stuff he's confronted on? I love this about Das, I really do! He has a lot better track record that some I've seen online! I believe 100% he's in denial about Dubya, but from what I've seen he answers at least 99% of the time when he's confronted. That's to be admired. At least he doesn't willfully ignore stuff people confront him about with Dubya! He takes the time to post answers instead of hiding. Thank you Pumkinette. I do appreciate your comments. Beth - I did click your link but the whole PNAC thing never made any sense to me. It seemed like a liberal fantasy. They were hoping to have discovered a huge conspiracy where none existed. It just reminded me of Hillary Clinton's ridiculous allegations of a 'huge right wing conspiracy.' My reaction: "C'mon. Give me a break" and "Surely you jest."
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Post by beth on Jan 7, 2010 4:06:46 GMT
das, I was referring to the original link on the origin post of this thread. Too late now, it's gone, but it was not a liberal site, it was Kristol's PNAC site that had been online for several years. I have a feeling I'm wasting my time. You probably know all that. No point in arguing if you've made up your mind to ignore it. However, I'll keep a thought and if it returns to the web, I'll crumble breadcrumbs straight to the front page.
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Post by Big Lin on Jan 7, 2010 16:18:47 GMT
I invited Bush Admirer/Das to join my board because I knew him well from another forum and have always been impressed by his intelligence, his sincerity and his wicked sense of humour!
I am glad that he is here because he brings a lot of fresh thinking to the table in a board where probably the overwhelming majority of members tend to pretty much agree on most subjects which can get a little tiresome at times.
He, like Jumbo or several other members, has strong opinions and is not afraid to defend them. He doesn't just come out with stupid cracks like certain people on other boards I could mention but won't.
Just because his views are probably in the minority on most subjects doesn't make them any less valuable.
I also think that people often get confused because too many non-Americans forget that there are three different conservative traditions within the US - those who broadly follow the Federalist/National Republican/Republican line from Lincoln to Taft and then Hoover, after which it died as mainstream; those who broadly follow the Whig line; and those who are basically religious fundamentalists who want to set up a Christian theocracy in the States that would be every bit as oppressive as similar systems in Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Das/Bush Admirer is, broadly speaking, a Whig, as, on the whole, and when he was allowed to speak and act for himself instead of being muscled into mistakes by Cheney and Rumsfeld, both of whom believed in the American theocratic vision, so too was George W Bush.
The Whig political tradition is a perfectly respectable and honourable one (even if it did give the country Tyler!) and BA/Das is in that secular, rationalist, and minarchist tradition and NOT in the same stable as the religious right
He is actually on record as being a firm atheist.
His politics owe far more to the likes of Ayn Rand and Leonard Peikoff than they do to the modern mavericks who can't hold a candle to the likes of those two - or to Das!
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Post by beth on Jan 7, 2010 19:06:22 GMT
Well, if we are going to talk *about* das and not *to* him I'll just mention I enjoy his presence on the board and have, occasionally, thought he'd make a good member-of-the-month. I also agree with you, Lin, for the most part about him not swinging too very far to the extremes. What I don't understand is why he'd want to deny the existence of the neo-cons and PNAC and try to pretend they are a liberal invention - although if you trace the movement back far enough, it probably did start among liberals (neo-liberals) but never got a foothold until it was warmly embraced by Cheney and his ilk. Since I think das is smart enough, there must be some, as yet unexplained, reason he is feigning ignorance about this element of the right wing with members including several who have been/are major influences in the Republican party. Very strange, imo.
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