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Post by everso on Jan 21, 2009 0:52:35 GMT
Why would they change their beliefs if they realize it was the pilot's skills that brought the plane down safely, not god. 9/11 happened because a few believed god wanted them to fly those planes into buildings and kill thousands of people......so does god save people or not? just because they'd realize that the pilot couldn't have done it without god's help, and forbearance So why did god bother to organise a plane crash if he intended to save everyone anyway? Surely not to show everyone how merciful he is? Can't be doing with that I'm afraid.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2009 8:03:38 GMT
I've been thinking about the question, and I honestly don't know. My car was once knocked off the road and down an embankment; it rolled over three times before coming to a halt - fortunately right way up in a field - and I can remember being upside down. It amazed me how un-panicked I was; I just told myself "oh well."
At times I can be totally focused and cool headed. On the other hand if the situation is beyond my control or comprehension I can switch off entirely and go into a kind of third dimension. Either way, it probably wouldn't occur to me to phone anyone.
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 21, 2009 13:58:52 GMT
I've been thinking about the question, and I honestly don't know. My car was once knocked off the road and down an embankment; it rolled over three times before coming to a halt - fortunately right way up in a field - and I can remember being upside down. It amazed me how un-panicked I was; I just told myself "oh well." At times I can be totally focused and cool headed. On the other hand if the situation is beyond my control or comprehension I can switch off entirely and go into a kind of third dimension. Either way, it probably wouldn't occur to me to phone anyone. really. phoning someone might be a nice gesture, but it damm well won't save your azz
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 21, 2009 14:01:19 GMT
just because they'd realize that the pilot couldn't have done it without god's help, and forbearance So why did god bother to organise a plane crash if he intended to save everyone anyway? Surely not to show everyone how merciful he is? Can't be doing with that I'm afraid. you are starting from a false premise. god doesn't CAUSE anything bad to happen. he does, however, ALLOW bad things to happen, for a myriad of reasons
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Post by everso on Jan 21, 2009 17:48:27 GMT
So why did god bother to organise a plane crash if he intended to save everyone anyway? Surely not to show everyone how merciful he is? Can't be doing with that I'm afraid. you are starting from a false premise. god doesn't CAUSE anything bad to happen. he does, however, ALLOW bad things to happen, for a myriad of reasons How do you know all this Jumbo? No, I mean: how do you KNOW it? Who actually told you that god allows, rather than causes, stuff to happen?
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 22, 2009 13:59:25 GMT
you are starting from a false premise. god doesn't CAUSE anything bad to happen. he does, however, ALLOW bad things to happen, for a myriad of reasons How do you know all this Jumbo? No, I mean: how do you KNOW it? Who actually told you that god allows, rather than causes, stuff to happen? how do you know that the wind exists? you have NEVER seen the wind. all that you have ever seen was the effects of the wind. there's NO difference between the wind and god in that respect
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Post by trubble on Jan 22, 2009 14:07:02 GMT
How do you know all this Jumbo? No, I mean: how do you KNOW it? Who actually told you that god allows, rather than causes, stuff to happen? how do you know that the wind exists? you have NEVER seen the wind. all that you have ever seen was the effects of the wind. there's NO difference between the wind and god in that respect There is a mass of evidence that can prove wind exists. It has a specific set of qualities that can be tested and mapped and models produced to show how it will work in any given circumstance. None of this exists for any god. What is more, the wind has never been attributed with speaking to various humans and laying down a set of laws for each to follow or promising an afterlife or acting in vengeance or for good.
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Post by chefmate51 on Jan 22, 2009 15:59:22 GMT
So why did god bother to organise a plane crash if he intended to save everyone anyway? Surely not to show everyone how merciful he is? Can't be doing with that I'm afraid. you are starting from a false premise. god doesn't CAUSE anything bad to happen. he does, however, ALLOW bad things to happen, for a myriad of reasons What the heck is god's reason to allow an innocent to be murdered then? Why cause a family such pain? seems like god is a shyt
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 22, 2009 23:07:52 GMT
how do you know that the wind exists? you have NEVER seen the wind. all that you have ever seen was the effects of the wind. there's NO difference between the wind and god in that respect There is a mass of evidence that can prove wind exists. It has a specific set of qualities that can be tested and mapped and models produced to show how it will work in any given circumstance. None of this exists for any god. What is more, the wind has never been attributed with speaking to various humans and laying down a set of laws for each to follow or promising an afterlife or acting in vengeance or for good. no, it does NOT!! tornadoes are wind that you CAN see, but, there is NO set of anything to show exactly where it will touch down, or for how long. one storm we had last year that killed thirty-five people, touched down five times over the course of a couple hundred miles. it went over the top of nashville instead of through it, after being on the ground up to nashville. that is wind that you can see. normal wind can be measured, but other than that, there is NO evidence that it exists other than seeing the effects. there is MUCH more proof of god
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 22, 2009 23:10:52 GMT
you are starting from a false premise. god doesn't CAUSE anything bad to happen. he does, however, ALLOW bad things to happen, for a myriad of reasons What the heck is god's reason to allow an innocent to be murdered then? Why cause a family such pain? seems like god is a shyt i'm NOT god, although i'm as close to it as some people will ever see. i don't know why god allows things to happen. i just know that he doesn't CAUSE the bad ones. he has a reason for everything. we just don't know what it is. hell, no one has had to go through what job did
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Post by everso on Jan 22, 2009 23:31:35 GMT
What the heck is god's reason to allow an innocent to be murdered then? Why cause a family such pain? seems like god is a shyt i'm NOT god, although i'm as close to it as some people will ever see. i don't know why god allows things to happen. i just know that he doesn't CAUSE the bad ones. he has a reason for everything. we just don't know what it is. hell, no one has had to go through what job did You can't possibly know that unless you have a direct line to your god. You THINK he doesn't cause bad things to happen, but you cannot possibly KNOW.
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Post by trubble on Jan 22, 2009 23:55:20 GMT
There is a mass of evidence that can prove wind exists. It has a specific set of qualities that can be tested and mapped and models produced to show how it will work in any given circumstance. None of this exists for any god. What is more, the wind has never been attributed with speaking to various humans and laying down a set of laws for each to follow or promising an afterlife or acting in vengeance or for good. no, it does NOT!! tornadoes are wind that you CAN see, but, there is NO set of anything to show exactly where it will touch down, or for how long. one storm we had last year that killed thirty-five people, touched down five times over the course of a couple hundred miles. it went over the top of nashville instead of through it, after being on the ground up to nashville. that is wind that you can see. normal wind can be measured, but other than that, there is NO evidence that it exists other than seeing the effects. there is MUCH more proof of god Tornadoes are the exception that proves the rule. But as you said, we can all see them, so again they have more proof of existence than a god. What proof of god are you claiming is so 'much more' than any proof of wind existing? That's rather humorous. It reminds me of that great scene in Life of Brian - What have the Romans ever done for us?!
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Post by trubble on Jan 23, 2009 0:16:40 GMT
i'm NOT god, although i'm as close to it as some people will ever see. i don't know why god allows things to happen. i just know that he doesn't CAUSE the bad ones. he has a reason for everything. we just don't know what it is. hell, no one has had to go through what job did You can't possibly know that unless you have a direct line to your god. You THINK he doesn't cause bad things to happen, but you cannot possibly KNOW. Exactly. People can believe, people can have faith, people can think that God does something but the strength of that faith can be their only real knowledge. That's ok, as far as I'm concerned. But they cannot expect me to have any knowledge of God whatsoever based on their personal faith. Unlike God, it matters not if I have no faith in the existence of wind. I don't have to rely on my own or someone else's personal faith in it to knowingly experience it. Wind is experienced in exactly the same way and intensity by more than one person at a time. God is experienced in isolation and interpreted by the individual alone. Wind is not given a moral agenda. Hence such statements as 'god does not cause the bad things'. I think I will start saying 'wind does not cause the bad things. I just know that it doesn't'. Anyone think that's not alright?
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 23, 2009 12:05:56 GMT
You can't possibly know that unless you have a direct line to your god. You THINK he doesn't cause bad things to happen, but you cannot possibly KNOW. Exactly. People can believe, people can have faith, people can think that God does something but the strength of that faith can be their only real knowledge. That's ok, as far as I'm concerned. But they cannot expect me to have any knowledge of God whatsoever based on their personal faith. Unlike God, it matters not if I have no faith in the existence of wind. I don't have to rely on my own or someone else's personal faith in it to knowingly experience it. Wind is experienced in exactly the same way and intensity by more than one person at a time. God is experienced in isolation and interpreted by the individual alone. Wind is not given a moral agenda. Hence such statements as 'god does not cause the bad things'. I think I will start saying 'wind does not cause the bad things. I just know that it doesn't'. Anyone think that's not alright? i DO have a direct line to god, just as anyone who wants to does. just as the telephone company does not go around indiscriminately hooking everyone up, god does not install the line to you until you've submitted the request. god is NOT interpreted by the individual alone. were that true, there would be billions of churches, since according to you, no two people would believe the same. anyway, wind is NOT experienced exactly the same by everyone. if you are behind a building, you will still feel the wind, but not at the intensity of the person in an open field. it would be very stupid to decide that you think that wind doesn't cause bad things. the downed power lines and trees are proof that it does, just as the works of god are proof that he does.
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Post by trubble on Jan 23, 2009 12:38:17 GMT
Exactly. People can believe, people can have faith, people can think that God does something but the strength of that faith can be their only real knowledge. That's ok, as far as I'm concerned. But they cannot expect me to have any knowledge of God whatsoever based on their personal faith. Unlike God, it matters not if I have no faith in the existence of wind. I don't have to rely on my own or someone else's personal faith in it to knowingly experience it. Wind is experienced in exactly the same way and intensity by more than one person at a time. God is experienced in isolation and interpreted by the individual alone. Wind is not given a moral agenda. Hence such statements as 'god does not cause the bad things'. I think I will start saying 'wind does not cause the bad things. I just know that it doesn't'. Anyone think that's not alright? i DO have a direct line to god, just as anyone who wants to does. just as the telephone company does not go around indiscriminately hooking everyone up, god does not install the line to you until you've submitted the request. god is NOT interpreted by the individual alone. were that true, there would be billions of churches, since according to you, no two people would believe the same. anyway, wind is NOT experienced exactly the same by everyone. if you are behind a building, you will still feel the wind, but not at the intensity of the person in an open field. it would be very stupid to decide that you think that wind doesn't cause bad things. the downed power lines and trees are proof that it does, just as the works of god are proof that he does. There are loads of different churches and interpretations, even amid an allegedly single church. See a parish, see a church full of people kneeling, scratch that congregation a bit and you'll find each has their own little version of what's going on apart from the sheeple who just follow the rules and don't think any further on it. Come to think of it, even the sheeple pick their own versions of the rules to follow and omit the odd one here or there. I honestly cannot think of any person I've met that didn't have their own particular version of God and how to interpret his words, even if the difference was tiny. Our ears all look and do basically the same but each of us has ears that are so different in the detail that they can be used as confidently as fingerprints to distinguish us. It's the same sort of difference I am talking about, as well as the blatantly screamingly different interpretations. Your point about the wind being felt differently behind a barn or something...that's wriggling. If you put two people in the same place at the same time with the same wind they will experience the same wind. When you pray, you hear God. To hear is to interpret. Who is hearing and interpreting God? You, alone, the individual. Can I just have some clarification on the issue of what God does - does he cause bad things? Can I just have some clarification about this direct line you have? Do other believers agree that you are on a direct line? Do other believers agree that you are as close to God as some people will ever see? Has the Pope agreed? or is that just your/an individual interpretation of events?
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Post by trubble on Jan 23, 2009 12:47:28 GMT
No. neither do the phone companies, but weirdly the wind just arrives and we have no say over it.
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 23, 2009 18:33:12 GMT
i DO have a direct line to god, just as anyone who wants to does. just as the telephone company does not go around indiscriminately hooking everyone up, god does not install the line to you until you've submitted the request. god is NOT interpreted by the individual alone. were that true, there would be billions of churches, since according to you, no two people would believe the same. anyway, wind is NOT experienced exactly the same by everyone. if you are behind a building, you will still feel the wind, but not at the intensity of the person in an open field. it would be very stupid to decide that you think that wind doesn't cause bad things. the downed power lines and trees are proof that it does, just as the works of god are proof that he does. There are loads of different churches and interpretations, even amid an allegedly single church. See a parish, see a church full of people kneeling, scratch that congregation a bit and you'll find each has their own little version of what's going on apart from the sheeple who just follow the rules and don't think any further on it. Come to think of it, even the sheeple pick their own versions of the rules to follow and omit the odd one here or there. I honestly cannot think of any person I've met that didn't have their own particular version of God and how to interpret his words, even if the difference was tiny. Our ears all look and do basically the same but each of us has ears that are so different in the detail that they can be used as confidently as fingerprints to distinguish us. It's the same sort of difference I am talking about, as well as the blatantly screamingly different interpretations. Your point about the wind being felt differently behind a barn or something...that's wriggling. If you put two people in the same place at the same time with the same wind they will experience the same wind. When you pray, you hear God. To hear is to interpret. Who is hearing and interpreting God? You, alone, the individual. Can I just have some clarification on the issue of what God does - does he cause bad things? Can I just have some clarification about this direct line you have? Do other believers agree that you are on a direct line? Do other believers agree that you are as close to God as some people will ever see? Has the Pope agreed? or is that just your/an individual interpretation of events? read about job. that is the ultimate example of how god handles some things. EVERYONE who believes, has a direct line to god, well, to jesus. what the pope says about anything doesn't mean shyt no one has to agree with my interpretation of anything. agreement or disagreement about something does not change the facts. it's pretty simple. if you don't believe, you aren't going to be seeing god. therefore, i am as close as you will get.
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Post by everso on Jan 24, 2009 16:22:41 GMT
i DO have a direct line to god, just as anyone who wants to does. just as the telephone company does not go around indiscriminately hooking everyone up, god does not install the line to you until you've submitted the request. god is NOT interpreted by the individual alone. were that true, there would be billions of churches, since according to you, no two people would believe the same. anyway, wind is NOT experienced exactly the same by everyone. if you are behind a building, you will still feel the wind, but not at the intensity of the person in an open field. it would be very stupid to decide that you think that wind doesn't cause bad things. the downed power lines and trees are proof that it does, just as the works of god are proof that he does. There are loads of different churches and interpretations, even amid an allegedly single church. See a parish, see a church full of people kneeling, scratch that congregation a bit and you'll find each has their own little version of what's going on apart from the sheeple who just follow the rules and don't think any further on it. Come to think of it, even the sheeple pick their own versions of the rules to follow and omit the odd one here or there. I honestly cannot think of any person I've met that didn't have their own particular version of God and how to interpret his words, even if the difference was tiny. Our ears all look and do basically the same but each of us has ears that are so different in the detail that they can be used as confidently as fingerprints to distinguish us. It's the same sort of difference I am talking about, as well as the blatantly screamingly different interpretations. Your point about the wind being felt differently behind a barn or something...that's wriggling. If you put two people in the same place at the same time with the same wind they will experience the same wind. When you pray, you hear God. To hear is to interpret. Who is hearing and interpreting God? You, alone, the individual. Can I just have some clarification on the issue of what God does - does he cause bad things? Can I just have some clarification about this direct line you have? Do other believers agree that you are on a direct line? Do other believers agree that you are as close to God as some people will ever see? Has the Pope agreed? or is that just your/an individual interpretation of events? Trubs, you gotta admire this bloke. He always has an answer. Of course, you know and I know it's baloney but he thinks it's real and that's fine. It's when it starts to affect other people around him that it's a problem.
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Post by iamjumbo on Jan 24, 2009 18:18:39 GMT
There are loads of different churches and interpretations, even amid an allegedly single church. See a parish, see a church full of people kneeling, scratch that congregation a bit and you'll find each has their own little version of what's going on apart from the sheeple who just follow the rules and don't think any further on it. Come to think of it, even the sheeple pick their own versions of the rules to follow and omit the odd one here or there. I honestly cannot think of any person I've met that didn't have their own particular version of God and how to interpret his words, even if the difference was tiny. Our ears all look and do basically the same but each of us has ears that are so different in the detail that they can be used as confidently as fingerprints to distinguish us. It's the same sort of difference I am talking about, as well as the blatantly screamingly different interpretations. Your point about the wind being felt differently behind a barn or something...that's wriggling. If you put two people in the same place at the same time with the same wind they will experience the same wind. When you pray, you hear God. To hear is to interpret. Who is hearing and interpreting God? You, alone, the individual. Can I just have some clarification on the issue of what God does - does he cause bad things? Can I just have some clarification about this direct line you have? Do other believers agree that you are on a direct line? Do other believers agree that you are as close to God as some people will ever see? Has the Pope agreed? or is that just your/an individual interpretation of events? Trubs, you gotta admire this bloke. He always has an answer. Of course, you know and I know it's baloney but he thinks it's real and that's fine. It's when it starts to affect other people around him that it's a problem. i can only turn on the light for you. i cannot, nor would i if i could, force you to open your eyes and see it. when you choose to continue to stumble around in the dark, it's YOUR head that will get busted when you fall down, not mine. max nix to me one way or the other
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Post by everso on Jan 24, 2009 20:08:53 GMT
Trubs, you gotta admire this bloke. He always has an answer. Of course, you know and I know it's baloney but he thinks it's real and that's fine. It's when it starts to affect other people around him that it's a problem. i can only turn on the light for you. i cannot, nor would i if i could, force you to open your eyes and see it. when you choose to continue to stumble around in the dark, it's YOUR head that will get busted when you fall down, not mine. max nix to me one way or the other Well, say one for me anyway, Jumbo!
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